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    Posted: December 08 2021 at 08:16
Rethinking my wording here. Apologies if I was impertinent.

A cooling off period for the holidays (at least) is in order for this topic.

If you haven't read the General Discussion Forum Announcements, please do.

Edited by Tapfret - December 08 2021 at 09:17

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Man, get out of the popcorn for this thread. 
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Points: 4072 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2021 at 16:30
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

My post was focusing on USA action and the Reactions. That said, I do think it's worth mentioning why Belarus is under sanctions. Thank you for doing so. Although the sanctions are meant to punish Leaders, it's always the country's citizens who suffer. It can become a siege. The citizens don't always blame their leaders. Often times they blame the United States.  I agree, Belarus leaders are not choir boys. My main point was that the net result of sanctions may eventually enable Russia to adsorb Belarus.
Lukashenko's actions have gone too far to remain unpunished; the Belarusian opposition has explicitly called for sanctions against the regime and the industries and corporations that cooperate with it. Driving him into the arms of Russia was always a risk; Putin has never made it much of a secret that he considers Belarus (like many other former Soviet states) a justified target for Russian irredentism. I'm not convinced the Belarusian people are going to take it without a fight, however. The 2020 protests were not specifically pro-EU but they were anti-Russian; people were already waving traditional pre-Soviet flags from the onset and I doubt they have any more love for Russia now after they've propped up the reviled regime and aided in the total collapse of civil society.
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Refugees?  I do find the flooding of Refugees into Europe as a war tactic meant to destabilize sovereign nations. I don't blame Poland for not wanting the Refugees.  That said, the very same Iraqi refugees sailing into the UK or Western EU would be welcomed by the EU media.  I find it interesting that most the refugees are military age men.  
If the European Commission hadn't supported Poland and Lithuania in this one specific case they would be playing into Lukashenko's game, so this is the one scenario where I cannot reasonably object to governments using repressive measures to bar refugees from their territory. I do wish to emphasize however that this wouldn't have gotten as much out of hand if the EU had a fair, comprehensive policy for the distribution of immigrants across the different member states, which is something Poland and Hungary have always vetoed within the European Council (they also vetoed a proposal that would have had them reimburse countries for taking in immigrants in their stead). The point of an alliance like the EU to me seems to be the betterment of all members and a cooperative, solidary tackling of international challenges, but this stalemate means that it's mostly been Greece and Italy who have had to bear the brunt, merely as a consequence of their unfortunate geographical location. They've been pushed to the limit; refugee camps around the Mediterranean Sea quite frankly make the detention camps on the US-Mexico border look hospitable by comparison. I fail to see the relevance of many refugees being "military age men"; it seems reasonable to me for families in countries where economies have collapsed due to warfare to send their able-bodied sons abroad to find work and hopefully be able to send money back. I don't think it's fair at all to expect those people to go fight in an extremely complicated and sectarian conflict with no real "good guys".
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Biden promised America- student Loan forgiveness, Medicare for All, and a Living $15 minimum wage. That all evaporated the moment Biden was elected. 
I might be looking in the wrong places but I can't find a source that confirms Biden supported Medicare for all during his campaign (although he should have and I do see his lack of support for such a principle as a failing), and as for those other things: they only evaporated when they failed to pass through Congress. I keep hearing people say that Biden should have prodded Democratic senators more, but I don't really see what concrete action he could have taken to secure these measures. He has very little leverage over someone like Joe Manchin, who has far more to fear from a Republican challenger in his very conservative state than from any Democratic primary challengers who could "out-left" him.
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Hungry and Poland would like to keep their local government rules and laws. Many Hungarians and Polish citizens don't want the EU laws to usurp their own laws. This is why I believe there is a 50/50 chance- that within the next 12 years-  Hungary or Poland may attempt to Exit the EU. 
Poland and Hungary biting back at the EU is mostly posturing on their part. They both rake in billions of Euros every year for infrastructure, social development and so on (although in the case of Hungary most of it instead gets embezzled or spent on vanity projects by the prime minister and his kleptocratic clique at whose mercy the country has fallen) so it goes very directly against their financial interest to actually follow through on their threats and leave the EU. It's not for no reason that the population of Poland for example is overwhelmingly pro-European. The problem is that the governments of these countries want to have their cake and eat it too: you can't agree to receive financial support from the EU only to then refuse to conform to the union's shared values and principles on democracy and rule of law. Their anti-immigration stance is not relevant in this case; it's their actions to undermine their own checks and balances that are the main cause for their conflict with the European Commission, and why the European Parliament voted that they be sanctioned.


Edited by Mirakaze - December 03 2021 at 16:31
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Same old same old with you two. Did it ever occur to you that Big Oil wants their money back after sucking wind during the pandemic outbreak last year? When they sold little gas and jet fuel? And now they want to recoup on those losses after shutting down 24 percent of their production? Which renders the pipeline argument futile. Of course not. You listen to like minded misinformed sourses like yourselves. Always and forever. Always and forever.
By 'you two', I assume you are not referring to Mirakaze. I really enjoy hearing about continental affairs from those that live there. A lot of posts on here are very repetitious, but not hers.
I have some friends in Poland, Ukraine, Russia and Lithuania and they have been keeping me informed about what is going on with Belarus and their neighbors. Lots going on that barely makes the news here.

Edited by Easy Money - December 03 2021 at 12:44
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Same old same old with you two. Did it ever occur to you that Big Oil wants their money back after sucking wind during the pandemic outbreak last year? When they sold little gas and jet fuel? And now they want to recoup on those losses after shutting down 24 percent of their production? Which renders the pipeline argument futile. Of course not. You listen to like minded misinformed sourses like yourselves. Always and forever. Always and forever.

Edited by SteveG - December 03 2021 at 05:47
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Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:




Don't you think it might be worth mentioning why Belarus is under sanctions? Namely, the fraudulent 2020 elections which sparked massive protests across the country, which were subsequently violently suppressed, with live rounds fired into crowds, people being tortured and sexually abused in detention, forced disappearances and all opposition figures fleeing abroad, where one of them ended up being murdered in Kyiv while another was arrested after the Belarusian air force forcibly diverted the passenger plane he was on to Minsk? Do you think the EU passively tolerating a murderous dictator on its border wouldn't embolden authoritarians the world over? Do you also think that the EU should just accept Lukashenko's weaponizing of Iraqi refugees, sending them across its western border in a hybrid warfare tactic to destabilize EU societies?

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Well Biden just snubbed Hungary.  Now Hungary fears that America will interfere in it's elections.  

More baloney. Again, there's a very good reason to snub Hungary at a "summit for democracy", considering the current Hungarian administration's near-complete stifling of independent press outlets, packing of the judiciary and executive with cronies and shameless gerrymandering which gave the ruling party a two-thirds majority in parliament despite winning less than 50% of votes in 2014 and 2018. Inviting Hungary to this summit would have emboldened Orbán's reelection campaign next year; not inviting Hungary weakens said campaign. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't in this case, and I personally think Biden did the Hungarian people a great service by not handing Orbán an award to flaunt at home. Recep Tayyip Erdogan didn't receive an invitation for the same reason. Polls are uncertain about whether or not Orbán will hold on to his majority in 2022, and I wouldn't be surprised if this announcement turns out to be the first step in a Trumpian strategy of undermining the legitimacy of the election in case he loses.

Do not get me wrong; the Afghanistan debacle, the lack of coordination with the EU on AUKUS, the waffling on US/NATO support for Taiwan and Ukraine, and the waiving of sanctions on Nord Stream 2 have already convinced me that Biden is doing a poor job on the international stage, but the decisions I highlighted above are absolutely the right thing to do in my eyes.

My post was focusing on USA action and the Reactions. That said, I do think it's worth mentioning why Belarus is under sanctions. Thank you for doing so. Although the sanctions are meant to punish Leaders, it's always the country's citizens who suffer. It can become a siege. The citizens don't always blame their leaders. Often times they blame the United States.  I agree, Belarus leaders are not choir boys. My main point was that the net result of sanctions may eventually enable Russia to adsorb Belarus. 

Refugees?  I do find the flooding of Refugees into Europe as a war tactic meant to destabilize sovereign nations. I don't blame Poland for not wanting the Refugees.  That said, the very same Iraqi refugees sailing into the UK or Western EU would be welcomed by the EU media.  I find it interesting that most the refugees are military age men.  

Yes, Biden snubbed Turkey too. I was planning an entire thread on Erdogan and EU/American relationships. None of these leaders are boy scouts.  I agree, that Orban's tenure is tenuous. Many Hungarians feel Orban is a devil; however, they also feel like, "He's our Devil." It's complicated and nuanced.  The Hungarians don't like other countries interfering in their affairs. Biden's stated motivations (as stated by the media and yourself) seem honorable. However, it's easy to suspect the honorable intentions mask insidious ulterior motives. Biden promised America- student Loan forgiveness, Medicare for All, and a Living $15 minimum wage. That all evaporated the moment Biden was elected. 

 Hungry and Poland would like to keep their local government rules and laws. Many Hungarians and Polish citizens don't want the EU laws to usurp their own laws. This is why I believe there is a 50/50 chance- that within the next 12 years-  Hungary or Poland may attempt to Exit the EU.  

Mirakaze, you brought up a bunch of good points. I appreciate the discussion. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 03 2021 at 04:06
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Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Biden pushed Belarus into Russian arms.  The USA has sanctions against Belarus exporting Potassium. Big deal you say? Fertilizer shortages in Europe could result, thus leading to increased Food prices. Unless, Biden fixes this problem within a year, I predict that within 10 years, Belarus will become an official part of Russia.
Russia has acclimated and adjusted itself to US sanctions by increasing  trade with China, Europe, and other countries like Belarus. Further US sanctions could blowback on America.  We shall see, because Biden, Canada, and EU just imposed further sanctions on Belarus. Is Biden intent on making Belarus a part of Russia?


Don't you think it might be worth mentioning why Belarus is under sanctions? Namely, the fraudulent 2020 elections which sparked massive protests across the country, which were subsequently violently suppressed, with live rounds fired into crowds, people being tortured and sexually abused in detention, forced disappearances and all opposition figures fleeing abroad, where one of them ended up being murdered in Kyiv while another was arrested after the Belarusian air force forcibly diverted the passenger plane he was on to Minsk? Do you think the EU passively tolerating a murderous dictator on its border wouldn't embolden authoritarians the world over? Do you also think that the EU should just accept Lukashenko's weaponizing of Iraqi refugees, sending them across its western border in a hybrid warfare tactic to destabilize EU societies?

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Well Biden just snubbed Hungary.  Now Hungary fears that America will interfere in it's elections.  

More baloney. Again, there's a very good reason to snub Hungary at a "summit for democracy", considering the current Hungarian administration's near-complete stifling of independent press outlets, packing of the judiciary and executive with cronies and shameless gerrymandering which gave the ruling party a two-thirds majority in parliament despite winning less than 50% of votes in 2014 and 2018. Inviting Hungary to this summit would have emboldened Orbán's reelection campaign next year; not inviting Hungary weakens said campaign. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't in this case, and I personally think Biden did the Hungarian people a great service by not handing Orbán an award to flaunt at home. Recep Tayyip Erdogan didn't receive an invitation for the same reason. Polls are uncertain about whether or not Orbán will hold on to his majority in 2022, and I wouldn't be surprised if this announcement turns out to be the first step in a Trumpian strategy of undermining the legitimacy of the election in case he loses.

Do not get me wrong; the Afghanistan debacle, the lack of coordination with the EU on AUKUS, the waffling on US/NATO support for Taiwan and Ukraine, and the waiving of sanctions on Nord Stream 2 have already convinced me that Biden is doing a poor job on the international stage, but the decisions I highlighted above are absolutely the right thing to do in my eyes.
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Biden's poll numbers are roughly equal to Trumps at the same point in their Presidency.  However, the Media supports Biden.  Over 90% of media stories were negative during Trumps four years. Before I go on, I did not vote for Biden or Trump.  

Why are Biden's poll numbers bottoming out, despite huge MSM support?
The Border is a mess.  1/3 of the children are unaccounted for. Many sold into child trafficking. 
 Biden broke promises to Democrat Base for a living wage, $2,000 stimulus handout, Student Loan forgiveness, and Medicare for All.  
Inflation is thru the roof. 
Biden has Alzheimer's.
The Economy is not good. 
Biden has attempted to ditch the 10th Amendment via Federal Vaccine Mandates.
The Afghanistan disaster. 
I will address the above reasons and more over the next few months, however I'd like to focus on Biden's foreign policy debacle, as it pertains to the world's other power brokers: The EU, China, Middle East, and Russia.

Biden's policies have pushed China and Russia into each other's arms.  Russia and China trade has dramatically increased. Russia and China announced Red Line policies at the same time. Russia's redline is Ukraine. China's redline is Taiwan.  Supposedly China and Russia have made a deal behind the scenes. If Nato or US make moves on Ukraine or Taiwan, then the other Country will move over their redline. For example, If Nato makes a move on Ukraine than China will take over Taiwan and Visa Versa.  

How could this happen?  The first thing Biden did was to Close that big American Oil Pipeline. Net result? USA went from a net surplus and oil exporter to begging OPEC to raise oil production.  In less than a year, US gasoline price almost double. What many American's don't know?  Biden played into Russia's hands by A. Shutting down American Pipeline. B. Signing off on Nord Stream 2 oil pipeline.   
Nord Stream 2 is a giant Russia Oil Pipeline which will supply Europe.  

 Biden hurts America's oil's production and enables Russia commerce. Russian oil selling at high prices.  This angered Ukraine because Nord Stream 2 hurts Ukraine's oil sales.  This isn't good because much of Eastern Ukraine identifies as Russian. While most of Western Ukraine identifies with the EU. Europe needs Russian oil. China needs Russian oil. So behind the scenes the EU may not actually do anything militarily against Russia. Sure Europe would condemn Russia, but if Biden doesn't do something smart, things could worsen. 

Biden pushed Belarus into Russian arms.  The USA has sanctions against Belarus exporting Potassium. Big deal you say? Fertilizer shortages in Europe could result, thus leading to increased Food prices. Unless, Biden fixes this problem within a year, I predict that within 10 years, Belarus will become an official part of Russia.
Russia has acclimated and adjusted itself to US sanctions by increasing  trade with China, Europe, and other countries like Belarus. Further US sanctions could blowback on America.  We shall see, because Biden, Canada, and EU just imposed further sanctions on Belarus. Is Biden intent on making Belarus a part of Russia?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/2/us-eu-uk-canada-announces-new-sanctions-on-belarus

Fewer countries trust the USA.  The rotating Presidency allows the USA to break promises to foreign countries. Obama makes a promise to Iran...Trump breaks it.  Trump promises Afghanistan withdrawal in Spring 2021...Biden breaks promise and Chaos ensues.   There are many examples of a US President making a promise that another President breaks.  Meanwhile China and Russia leaders stay the same through multiple Presidents. Thus, Russia and China can keep their promises easier than USA. Biden is only a part of this problem. Unfortunately, Biden has not been a part of the solution.  

Publicly, many European leaders praise the USA, but behind closed doors they don't trust the USA.  European leaders know Biden is NOT in charge. Who pulls Biden's strings?  Big Tech, Surveillance State, and Big Pharma.   Meanwhile, European countries need Russian oil and Biden made sure that the USA can't export any more oil.  USA imports oil now. 


China welcomes Russia trade. China is patient. China's military is expanding. I predict multiple joint China and Russian military exercises over the next year.  What will Biden's handlers do next? 

Well Biden just snubbed Hungary.  Now Hungary fears that America will interfere in it's elections.  

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-joe-biden-snubs-hungary-viktor-orb%C3%A1n-fears-election-interference/ar-AARa2Kl



 



Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 02 2021 at 19:03
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2021 at 15:09
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

^ I guess you dropped in recently and have not been engaged in most of the posts.  I have stated several times I didn’t support DT. Didn’t really care for Biden, but between Trump and Biden I chose Biden.

When it comes to health and serious health issues, I’d much rather listen to “Quackery-level pseudoscience” then to the medical establishment.  Why are there so many diseases not curable by the medical establishment and thus labeled as chronic diseases?

Diagnosed with Crohn’s I was a walking skeleton for 10 years.  Specialists told me it was not curable but manageable.  Following their protocol it wasn’t being managed and only getting worse.  Quackery-level-pseudoscience therapies cured me of Crohn’s and gave me my life back.

I’m not saying there’s no use or need for modern medicine.  It has value and purpose and should be integrated with all forms of healing for well-being.  Unfortunately, the way it’s used, it often causes more harm than good.

 I took a look at the report on Mercola and it seems that not only he’s an excellent health advisor but maybe a psychic as well. Shocked

Origins:   On 1 April 2015, the oft-unreliable health-related web site Mercola published an article titled
“US Government Rolls Out Mandatory Adult Vaccination and Tracking Program.” Purportedly
authored by Dr. (Joseph) Mercola, the article reported that the U.S. government not only planned to make
vaccinations mandatory for American adults, but to also monitor social media sites for “anti-vaccine chatter"

I hear your complaint.  Hard to believe that some of the folks on this thread disparage your sources, when their Main Stream Sources only lie. 
The MSM media lied so much about Kyle Rittenhouse, that people thought he murdered black people. 
 Several MSM sites called that Wisconsin SUV plowing through a parade (killing 6, injuring over 60)....An accident. 
The perp was out on $1,000 bail for running over his girlfriend with the exact same SUV.
The MSM are propogandists for the Establishment.  Can you believe working class, progressive rock fans support Big Pharma, Big Tech, and the Billionaire Establishment? 
Maybe they think the Establishment will throw them a bone? 
I do not like your posts like you are in the know on some lofty perch looking down at the rest of us. Your posts have nothing to do with politics really and only serve as a way to thumb your nose at other folks' worldview. 
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Points: 1396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2021 at 14:02
^LOL… I thought he shot and killed black people.  Not that it mattered, but I had to watch the video before I made any comments on whether it was justified or not.
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Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

^ I guess you dropped in recently and have not been engaged in most of the posts.  I have stated several times I didn’t support DT. Didn’t really care for Biden, but between Trump and Biden I chose Biden.

When it comes to health and serious health issues, I’d much rather listen to “Quackery-level pseudoscience” then to the medical establishment.  Why are there so many diseases not curable by the medical establishment and thus labeled as chronic diseases?

Diagnosed with Crohn’s I was a walking skeleton for 10 years.  Specialists told me it was not curable but manageable.  Following their protocol it wasn’t being managed and only getting worse.  Quackery-level-pseudoscience therapies cured me of Crohn’s and gave me my life back.

I’m not saying there’s no use or need for modern medicine.  It has value and purpose and should be integrated with all forms of healing for well-being.  Unfortunately, the way it’s used, it often causes more harm than good.

 I took a look at the report on Mercola and it seems that not only he’s an excellent health advisor but maybe a psychic as well. Shocked

Origins:   On 1 April 2015, the oft-unreliable health-related web site Mercola published an article titled
“US Government Rolls Out Mandatory Adult Vaccination and Tracking Program.” Purportedly
authored by Dr. (Joseph) Mercola, the article reported that the U.S. government not only planned to make
vaccinations mandatory for American adults, but to also monitor social media sites for “anti-vaccine chatter"

I hear your complaint.  Hard to believe that some of the folks on this thread disparage your sources, when their Main Stream Sources only lie. 
The MSM media lied so much about Kyle Rittenhouse, that people thought he murdered black people. 
 Several MSM sites called that Wisconsin SUV plowing through a parade (killing 6, injuring over 60)....An accident. 
The perp was out on $1,000 bail for running over his girlfriend with the exact same SUV.
The MSM are propogandists for the Establishment.  Can you believe working class, progressive rock fans support Big Pharma, Big Tech, and the Billionaire Establishment? 
Maybe they think the Establishment will throw them a bone? 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 02 2021 at 15:01
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^ I guess you dropped in recently and have not been engaged in most of the posts.  I have stated several times I didn’t support DT. Didn’t really care for Biden, but between Trump and Biden I chose Biden.

When it comes to health and serious health issues, I’d much rather listen to “Quackery-level pseudoscience” then to the medical establishment.  Why are there so many diseases not curable by the medical establishment and thus labeled as chronic diseases?

Diagnosed with Crohn’s I was a walking skeleton for 10 years.  Specialists told me it was not curable but manageable.  Following their protocol it wasn’t being managed and only getting worse.  Quackery-level-pseudoscience therapies cured me of Crohn’s and gave me my life back.

I’m not saying there’s no use or need for modern medicine.  It has value and purpose and should be integrated with all forms of healing for well-being.  Unfortunately, the way it’s used, it often causes more harm than good.

 I took a look at the report on Mercola and it seems that not only he’s an excellent health advisor but maybe a psychic as well. Shocked

Origins:   On 1 April 2015, the oft-unreliable health-related web site Mercola published an article titled
“US Government Rolls Out Mandatory Adult Vaccination and Tracking Program.” Purportedly
authored by Dr. (Joseph) Mercola, the article reported that the U.S. government not only planned to make
vaccinations mandatory for American adults, but to also monitor social media sites for “anti-vaccine chatter"


Edited by CosmicVibration - December 02 2021 at 13:06
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^ Don't worry, there are talks going on at an international level (and apparently there seems to be a consensus on the G7 level) to strip the big pharma companies of their patents regarding these vaccines, which would mean that those documents will be public way before 2076, and probably already in 2022.... That it is not public now is because of decades and decades of capitalist policy in the USA (so why would you support a capitalist like DT).

Now, what I don't understand is why you feel the need to give six links to six different sources that tell the same thing... It is as if you are stuttering. But since I got the impression that you prefer to believe nonsense sites, I had some fun of checking where you linked to (from the Media Bias/Fact Check site) in order of appearance:

- Overall, we rate Mercola.com a Quackery-level pseudoscience website that sometimes advocates for dangerous, inaction or action, to serious health issues.

- Overall, we rate ZeroHedge an extreme right-biased conspiracy website based on the promotion of false/misleading/debunked information that routinely denigrates the left.

You might think that because Daily Mail is British that it would be a more distinguished source, but remember that the Brits invented gutter journalism!
- Overall, we rate Daily Mail Right Biased and Questionable due to numerous failed fact checks and poor information sourcing.

- Overall, we rate the Children’s Health Defense a strong conspiracy and quackery level advocacy group that frequently promotes unsupported claims. We also rate them low for factual reporting due to the promotion of propaganda as well as several failed fact checks.

- In conclusion, The Vaccine Reaction is a Quackerly level Pseudoscience website based on anti-vaccination propaganda promotion.

- Overall, we rate Becker News far-right biased and questionable based on the use of poor sources, the promotion of right-wing propaganda and conspiracies, and frequent publication of misleading and false information.

You know that it is a choice to get your information from dubious/questionable/lying web sources, not an obligation...




Edited by suitkees - December 02 2021 at 10:58

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[QUOTE=suitkees]
^ That so-called doctor you refer to - and it is not the first time that you quote very dubious sources - is very much known for his disinformation practices: The New York Times even dared the headline "The Most Influential Spreader of Coronavirus Misinformation Online" to continue to state that "Researchers and regulators say Joseph Mercola, an osteopathic physician, creates and profits from misleading claims about Covid-19 vaccines."

Dubious source?  

 You know, in all his articles all the sources and references are listed at the bottom.

 It took the U.S. Food and Drug Administration 108 days to review all the data Pfizer/BioNTech submitted in order to gain FDA approval for its Comirnaty COVID shot, which was licensed August 3, 2021.

Considering the agency claims there are 329,000 pages of data, the fact that they were able to read, analyze and draw conclusions about its safety and effectiveness in just 108 days — about 80,000 pages a month — is no small miracle. They must employ some very efficient speed readers.

And that is why the FDA’s claim that it now needs half a century to review the documents before they can release them to the public doesn’t seem very credible. Even Reuters has expressed shock, and its former CEO is on the board of Pfizer.1

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/12/02/vaccine-reaction-data.aspx?ui=62b083b9f6283ac9e45ba651bab8b1f0e7fa98846280b9121702b1eeac834a0d&sd=20110602&cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20211202&mid=DM1056547&rid=1338830665

Yes, full release of the documents will not happen until 2076… and you place your trust with these people.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/wait-what-even-reuters-tripping-out-55-year-delay-release-pfizer-vax-data

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10222035/FDA-says-need-55-YEARS-make-vaccine-related-information-available-public.html

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-licensing-pfizer-comirnaty-covid-vaccine/

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2021/11/fda-asks-court-for-55-years-to-fully-release-documents-on-pfizer-covid-biologic/

https://thekylebecker.substack.com/p/the-fda-produced-first-batch-of-confidential
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Points: 9050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2021 at 17:06
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Good comment Aardvark!  The sentence I quoted is the main sentence in the final interpretation of the entire article by the authors.

This is where you fault: you're quoting from the introductory summary. I acknowledge that it is more ambiguous than the rest of the article, but apparently you didn't (or preferred not to) read to the end of the whole article. See my citation above to get more of the essence of the research that you thought might serve your thinking, but it isn't.

Do you agree or disagree?  Please explain your view, instead of attacking the way I write. It's not about my quotes, writing, or research skills.  Address the issue or move on. Below is a simple version of my argument.
You're right, I was more focusing on your argumentation (not your writing!) than on your opinion, so...
Quote My Argument?  People should not be required or coerced to take the jab?  If double vaccinated people can efficiently transfer a viral covid infection to other vaccinated people...then what is the point of mandatory covid vaccines?

Well, here are actually two points. As said above, (double) vaccinated people do not have an absolute non-contamination degree, but what has been statistically proven is that this degree is much lower compared to non vaccinated people. This is not an opinion, but a scientifically established fact (maybe contested by you, but not by me). These same scientifically established facts determine that vaccines first of all protect against severe health consequences of the virus and secondly diminish the contamination factor of it (these are facts to reestablish with each new variant that pops up, but up till now these two major points seem to be constant factors).
That said, and that's the other point:
Quote Do you disagree or agree with mandatory covid vaccine?  Explain your point of view.
I'm much inclined to agree with you that people should not be obligated to be vaccinated. But, once one chooses not to be vaccinated he/she should accept the constraints of that choice: not being able to go to and/or participate in gatherings/events where there's a more important risk of contamination (theaters, cinemas, restaurants, museums and other places where people gather...) in order to limit the risks of spreading the virus. Here in France you now have to show a "health pass" confirming that you are either vaccinated or have a recent negative test in order to participate in events, go to bars, restaurants, dancings or take a flight, etc. I think that is a good way to limit the propagation of the virus, even although we know it is not completely airtight...

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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Points: 6343 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2021 at 16:10
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Good comment Aardvark!  The sentence I quoted is the main sentence in the final interpretation of the entire article by the authors.

This is where you fault: you're quoting from the introductory summary. I acknowledge that it is more ambiguous than the rest of the article, but apparently you didn't (or preferred not to) read to the end of the whole article. See my citation above to get more of the essence of the research that you thought might serve your thinking, but it isn't.

Do you agree or disagree?  Please explain your view, instead of attacking the way I write. It's not about my quotes, writing, or research skills.  Address the issue or move on. Below is a simple version of my argument. 

My Argument?  People should not be required or coerced to take the jab?  If double vaccinated people can efficiently transfer a viral covid infection to other vaccinated people...then what is the point of mandatory covid vaccines?

Do you disagree or agree with mandatory covid vaccine?  Explain your point of view. 

  


Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 01 2021 at 16:12
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Points: 9050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2021 at 15:07
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Good comment Aardvark!  The sentence I quoted is the main sentence in the final interpretation of the entire article by the authors.

This is where you fault: you're quoting from the introductory summary. I acknowledge that it is more ambiguous than the rest of the article, but apparently you didn't (or preferred not to) read to the end of the whole article. See my citation above to get more of the essence of the research that you thought might serve your thinking, but it isn't.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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Points: 51086 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2021 at 14:34
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:


The Lancet Medical Journal article said word for word and I quote, 

"Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts."

If the above is true, then I see no need to coerce people into taking the jab.  It you want it, get it.  If you do not want the jab, you take the risk...and it's your business.  

I find it weird that out of that whole article you're only focused on one sentence. I don't feel like arguing with you because I'm just not in the mood for it anymore, but clearly you have some sort of agenda or you would acknowledge the other key aspects that article has stated to give it the proper context it deserves.

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study / Anika Singanayagam, et al.

What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant? / Annelies Wilder-Smith

I am not going to make any more comments about this. Readers can explore the two above links and come to their own conclusions, but if you're one prone to highlighting one line out of a rather lengthy detailed study, you're not really helping yourself. I refuse to be held responsible for any Gish gallops that may follow.

Good comment Aardvark!  The sentence I quoted is the main sentence in the final interpretation of the entire article. You know, the main point of the article. 

And you made my point for me, only focusing on one sentence of my post. Have a nice day. Enjoy the upcoming holidays.
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Points: 6343 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2021 at 14:30
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:


The Lancet Medical Journal article said word for word and I quote, 

"Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts."

If the above is true, then I see no need to coerce people into taking the jab.  It you want it, get it.  If you do not want the jab, you take the risk...and it's your business.  

I find it weird that out of that whole article you're only focused on one sentence. I don't feel like arguing with you because I'm just not in the mood for it anymore, but clearly you have some sort of agenda or you would acknowledge the other key aspects that article has stated to give it the proper context it deserves.

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study / Anika Singanayagam, et al.

What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant? / Annelies Wilder-Smith

I am not going to make any more comments about this. Readers can explore the two above links and come to their own conclusions, but if you're one prone to highlighting one line out of a rather lengthy detailed study, you're not really helping yourself. I refuse to be held responsible for any Gish gallops that may follow.


Good comment Aardvark!  The sentence I quoted is the main sentence in the final interpretation of the entire article by the authors.  You know, the main points of the article.  Here is the Entire Interpretation...word for word. 
 

Interpretation

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory.


Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 01 2021 at 14:35
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Points: 51086 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2021 at 14:21
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:


The Lancet Medical Journal article said word for word and I quote, 

"Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts."

If the above is true, then I see no need to coerce people into taking the jab.  It you want it, get it.  If you do not want the jab, you take the risk...and it's your business.  

I find it weird that out of that whole article you're only focused on one sentence. I don't feel like arguing with you because I'm just not in the mood for it anymore, but clearly you have some sort of agenda or you would acknowledge the other key aspects that article has stated to give it the proper context it deserves.

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study / Anika Singanayagam, et al.

What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant? / Annelies Wilder-Smith

I am not going to make any more comments about this. Readers can explore the two above links and come to their own conclusions, but if you're one prone to highlighting one line out of a rather lengthy detailed study, you're not really helping yourself. I refuse to be held responsible for any Gish gallops that may follow.
----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
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