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If ELP are counted among the "Big Six"...
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bucka001 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

I can't say I put a lot of weight on 'financial' success as a measure of where a band stands in the whole "Big #" discussions. It's a very American concept IMHO.
You also sort of support my argument when you mention The Nice "many prog bands pre-date ELP [including The Nice ;-)" , which was obviously a stepping stone to ELP. So given VDGG first released in 1969, as did King Crimson (Greg Lake) and Atomic Rooster (Carl Palmer) in 1970, while The Nice released in 1967 I stand by my assertion that they were early innovators.
I have found that many people who are big VDGG, Magma type fans usually, but not always, are not fans of ELP and visa versa. Not sure why that is.

Success may be an American barometer, but I've seen a lot of Europeans come up with the same Big Six as everyone else.

If it's about innovation and chronology, then VdGG (and others who weren't mega-successful) are fair game for the Big Six. I love VdGG, but I'd never put them in a Big Six category, but that's just because of my personal barometer (which, again, comes back to measurements of financial success). Now if we're talking innovation, creativity, influence, etc... they're #1 in my book. But the whole "Big Six" thing is a specific animal which, to my way of thinking, does imply level of success and known-ness (errr... I mean they're well known)

The Nice were not ELP, two completely different things (in my opinion... you may see it differently, fair enough)


Edited by bucka001 - July 15 2021 at 06:32
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"But the whole "Big Six" thing is a specific animal which, to my way of thinking, does imply level of success and known-ness (errr... I mean they're well known)"

On this we agree. I think the fact that ELP are known to a large portion of the prog ignorant population also supports their "bigness" (sorry about that word). And I understand there is a relationship between exposure and success.

So, big because they were as popular as Zeppelin for a time? Big because they had hits? Big Because they hold attendance records at venues? Big because they are well known to the general masses? Who knows.

For my tastes I would say VDGG is more avant garde than progressive, but that's probably just a distinction without a difference. But ELP were more (god I hate using these descriptors) 'traditional' in their progressive musical approach.



Edited by JD - July 15 2021 at 07:32
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As a Millennial who discovered Prog in my teens, I gave all the Big 6 a very good go, streaming (Last.FM in its golden days) most of their albums multiple times. ELP were one of the more frustrating bands, as they came up with some amazing tracks such as Tarkus, Tank and the insane but fun Karn Evil 9. But for every good track I seemed to run into just as many throwaway trash, such as the enitre second side of Tarkus, The Sheriff, Benny the Bouncer etc. which I got into the habbit of skipping immediently.

As I got older and could afford to buy albums instead of stream, I found getting into ELP even harder than before. The frequency of trash songs really kills the overall mood that the better songs had created, dragging down my overall rating of each album. I think that is the main reason ELP struggle to get into the top 100, people like albums that are good quality from start to finish, especially Prog fans who listen to albums in one go. Only their debut stays good at all points, so I'm not supprised that is the only one in the top 100.

Edited by LakeGlade12 - July 15 2021 at 11:59
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Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

If only there were so many flavors of spinach. I could eat a can, but most of my parts use hex screws.

I guess I'm missing something with your posts. Confused
Only this one??? LOL I think he thought this was the I'm the Ghost Of Mandrakeroot thread....That thread needs medication.

I enjoy ELP, did not realize their albums ranked so low here, regardless of personal reviews this is the main place people seem to come to for progressive music information, background. Tarkus is not in Top 100?? Wow......
This begs the discussion should PA bear some responsibility to acknowledge certain albums that are pivotal to the whole mainstream of progressive rock....maybe not maybe who cares, might be some responses. 

Yes I know the ranking system might be broken, but it is still a ranking system.
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Originally posted by LakeGlade12 LakeGlade12 wrote:

As a Millennial who discovered Prog in my teens, I gave all the Big 6 a very good go, streaming (Last.FM in its golden days) most of their albums multiple times. ELP were one of the more frustrating bands, as they came up with some amazing tracks such as Tarkus, Tank and the insane but fun Karn Evil 9. But for every good track I seemed to run into just as many throwaway trash, such as the enitre second side of Tarkus, The Sheriff, Benny the Bouncer etc. which I got into the habbit of skipping immediently.

As I got older and could afford to buy albums instead of stream, I found getting into ELM even harder than before. The frequency of trash songs really kills the overall mood that the better songs had created, dragging down my overall rating of each album. I think that is the main reason ELP struggle to get into the top 100, people like albums that are good quality from start to finish, especially Prog fans who listen to albums in one go. Only their debut stays good at all points, so I'm not supprised that is the only one in the top 100.

I'm amazed at the number of responses this has generated so far, but I'll have to say I agree most with LakeGlade12 regarding the consistency of ELP albums, and how it has affected the way the band is viewed today. My three favorite albums by them are the first album, the Emerson Lake and Powell album, and Black Moon, simply because they are consistently good all the way through. Most of their albums have some very high "highs", but also too many low "lows".
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Count me among the apparently rare millennials who describe themselves as ELP fans. The absence of guitar on most of their music never bothered me personally; I'd say that even without it, the band had a far bigger sound palette than a guitar-driven band like Rush in the 70s.
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Having grown up in that era, I can attest that ELP were huge.  Unlike Genesis and King Crimson in the early 1970s, they had a number of singles on constant radio airplay.  

Emerson was one of the first to really push the envelope of the new Moog synth, and he did very creative things with it, whereas most keyboardists just used it in a fairly static way (Wakeman for one).  

Regarding guitar, Greg Lake was an amazing lead guitarist, but he rarely showed this side of his talent.  You can certainly hear this on "Karn Evil 9."  Lake was a contemporary guitar student along with Bob Fripp, so there is that influence. 

RIP Lake and Emerson.  
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

ELP probably just haven't weathered well like some other bands from that early 70's era, and others seem to have gained esteem over the years such as VDGG & GG. At the outset ELP were seen as a core band to listen to if you also liked Yes, Genesis, the Floyd etc, and made some fine albums but by the time they released BSS it was all becoming a bit pompous and overblown (as good as that album is).  As if they almost became a parody of themselves, and hence attracted the detractors amongst prog fans. [Just the way I see it - their albums were part of my musical education back in the 70's, so that maybe makes a difference.]

Personally speaking their debut album and PAAE are two of my top twenty prog albums of all time.

'Pictures' was my brothers favorite ELP album. I rate it as good as the first 4 studio albums  but the debut will always be my favorite. IMHO it is more interesting than the later ones and has no silly tracks,,,though the Tarkus title track is probably the single best thing they ever did.
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ELP had several "goofy cowboy songs" as I call them but they don't really ruin the album. FOr me they serve as  a sort of break from the longer and more serious stuff. Something like "are you ready Eddie" in particular shows they had a sense of humor. 

Someone earlier mentioned running into a younger person wearing a Yes t shirt. This is something I saw a bit of about 10-15 years ago but not so much lately. I'm pretty sure in all of those cases the teen got into them through their parents. That wouldn't need to be the case with Pink Floyd or Rush. ELP and Yes were big in the seventies but their appeal didn't really spill over into mass acceptance and popularity like PF and Rush did. I think now when people hear about prog and get into it they inevitably discover the big six but I think for many it's Porcupine Tree, Tool, Prog metal in general and of course PF and Rush and who knows what else. For some reason ELP and to a lesser extent Yes just haven't aged that well(except for close to the Edge which seems to have held up with most these days). 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 15 2021 at 13:33
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I'm a millenial (29yo) and I love ELP, they're one of my favorite bands ever, not just prog bands. They are one of the biggest and most successful prog bands so they are definitely are part of the Big 6. The ratings in one particular website don't define the Big 6. In RateYourMusic Queen and The Police don't have very high ratings for their albums and they're two of the biggest rock bands of all time, particularly the former. 

ELP defined the genre, they were influential, revolutionary and commercially succesfful. I think only Yes has a stronger case for being part of the Big 3/5/6/10 or whatever else. Crimson weren't particularly big in terms of popularity after their first album, Genesis were but only in their latter era (aka, not the prog one), Tull and Floyd were, but they weren't 100% prog. Tull were more of a folk rock band with a prog era and Floyd started as a psychedelic/space rock band for years and also in their prog era they weren't fully prog like Yes or Crimson were.
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In my formative years ELP was my absolute favorite.
I was always intrigued by their use of (mostly) modern orchestral works.
Keith introduced me to a number of composers I had never known about in my teenage year, like Mussorgsky, Janacek, and of course, Ginastera.
I made good use of the Boston Public Library's extensive classical record collection in the early seventies.

I was lucky to meet Emerson after seeing his band play (I think the last time In Massachusetts).
He seemed pleased when I told him that he opened my eyes to orchestral music, and that he was a very large part of the soundtrack to my life.

I had listed to progressive rock (or art rock as it was called back then) before I heard ELP, but they were why I became infatuated with prog.
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:


On this we agree. I think the fact that ELP are known to a large portion of the prog ignorant population also supports their "bigness" (sorry about that word). And I understand there is a relationship between exposure and success.


I was watching an ELP concert not long ago and my mom asked them who they were and I told them it's ELP and she was like oh yeah, I know them, they're from my time. I was a bit surprised because she hardly knows anything about rock music at all LOL. She knows the household names like Beatles, Stones, Queen, etc. but not much else, I know she knows Pink Floyd because it's the favorite band of me and my dad, but I don't think she would know any of the other prog bands (except Genesis), not even Yes and Tull who were also huge. Hell, she might not even know Led Zeppelin lol.
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My take on Emerson, Lake & Palmer
I have great respect for them, mostly for original "guitarless" form, top notch musicianship at the time, bravado, trailblazing keyboard stuff that inspired future prog. Also, when ELP wants to be epic, they really are epic. There is a curious synergy between pompous, grandiose Emerson style and tender Greg Lake's voice, somehow reminiscent of Romantic poetry. That being said, they are tied with Pink Floyd for the "least listened to" band of so called Big Six.

Why are they less popular than other legends?
That's the result of multiple factors, most of them already mentioned. My guesses are:
  • unfocused and all over the place. You have one "epic" track, followed by drum solo, then acoustic smooshy ballad, and then experimental organ tour de force, crowned with silly honky tonk...
¿What is going on?
  • Must be perplexing for people used to cohesive albums with clear musical direction, elaborate artwork and safety found in conformity. In the world where people participate in internet flame wars about genres, subgenres and sellouts, a fifty years old band that happened to close their landmark album with ARE YOU READY, EDDY? doesn't sit well, at all
  • no guitar. A bit too much for some listeners, I imagine
  • short career. For most of us ELP were basically done after Brain Salad Surgery and we've never got a convincing record with 90s or 00s production. Like Gentle Giant, they only belong to 70s
  • a bit dated sound. I dunno if it's heavy reliance on Moog, lack of dominant guitar riffs, production issues or very specific vocal timbre. At times their experimental pieces border on ridiculous (say, Toccata) so it's a hard sell for non-fans
  • bad rep lingering since 1970s. Scapegoats of new wave/punk oriented musical press of the day, and they never had the chance to convince them otherwise. Even today I occasionally hear people laughing at prog rock and targeting ELP in particular. Some opinions may be legit, but most of it just parrotting others I say
So that's my take, I could probably think of other reasons given time, but that's the gist of it. And I believe the first one I mentioned really seals the deal, because even I, despite being acquainted with ELP music for my whole life, scratch my head at times. Tarkus suite is mindblowing, especially that early in prog history (three guys did it!), but what about the remaining songs? I'd love to experience more of that Side A, but what I get is ill-suited at best, forgettable at worst.

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Who are the "big six" again? I can never get it straight, cuz I'm never sure if it's about popularity, sales, concert ticket sales, critical acclaim, influence, historical significance, contribution to the evolution of music, songs, or best album covers. I think I'd have a different six for each and every one of those categories!

Having lived through the birth and formation of what we now call the progressive rock music revolution, I'd have to repeat that I always associated prog's elite with a band's ability to permeate public consciousness while still pushing boundaries. Thus, The Beatles, The Moody Blues, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, The Who, ELP, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones, Jethro Tull, Yes, and, when they were available, Pink Floyd would qualify--these were the hot tickets for concert goers when music was going through its album- and concert-oriented transformation. King Crimson, Zappa, Genesis, Mahavishnu, Miles Davis, VDGG, Camel, Renaissance, were in no way the same league as the aforementioned list: not in terms of album sales, radio play, concert interest, or even public awareness. What "Big Six"?
  


Edited by BrufordFreak - July 16 2021 at 05:49
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^Genesis not in the same leage as Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull? Seriously? With the exception of Pink Floyd and Rush(who you didn't mention) Genesis have sold more albums than most of those bands(certainly all of the "prog" bands). If you are talking only in the 70's, at the time, they should still be mentioned alongside Yes, JT and ELP because they were almost as big as them or as big in England(Starting with SEBTP all Genesis albums charted in the top 10 in the UK). Plus they are one of the most influential prog bands of all time possibly even more influential than Yes. Also, being that many(my guess would be at least half) prog fans now aren't even old enough to have been into the genre in the seventies so what was going on back then at the time is largely irrelevan to what are perceived to be the important bands today (Genesis being a good example of that but also the popularity within the prog community of the well known "modern" bands as well as Gentle Giant, Camel, PFM, VDGG, etc). 

Big six is a term used retroactively by the prog community. It's not perfect but it goes mostly by influence and over all popularity within the prog community(imo). There's no denying who was popular initially but what matters is who continue to influence the current prog bands and it's usually the ones who have had the greatest impact as prog bands who do that. For better or worse, over all popularity is a factor in determining who makes that impact.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 16 2021 at 10:07
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Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

In my formative years ELP was my absolute favorite.
I was always intrigued by their use of (mostly) modern orchestral works.
Keith introduced me to a number of composers I had never known about in my teenage year, like Mussorgsky, Janacek, and of course, Ginastera.
I made good use of the Boston Public Library's extensive classical record collection in the early seventies.

I was lucky to meet Emerson after seeing his band play (I think the last time In Massachusetts).
He seemed pleased when I told him that he opened my eyes to orchestral music, and that he was a very large part of the soundtrack to my life.

I had listed to progressive rock (or art rock as it was called back then) before I heard ELP, but they were why I became infatuated with prog.

That is interesting. I grew up in the seventies, and was aware of ELP and progressive rock, but had not got to really know and appreciate them at that time. I became immersed in prog and also classical music at the same time-the summer of 1985-after two simultaneous events-seeing the movie Amadeus and a friend lending me a couple of Triumvirat records. I also then immediately made use of the local Public Library's extensive classical record collection, and heard for the first time Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovitch, Wagner, etc. 
         After hearing Triumvirat, I became fixated on keyboard based progressive rock bands , and both this and my new interest in classical music lead me, of course, directly to ELP, and their even stronger use of classical music transcriptions on their albums. ELP and Triumvirat epitomised for me in music the phrase "best of both worlds" in their capability to rock, and also play transcriptions of orchestral music. Since that summer of 1985,  prog and orchestral music have both reinforced my interest in the other.


Edited by presdoug - July 16 2021 at 08:00
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Having grown up in that era, I can attest that ELP were huge.  Unlike Genesis and King Crimson in the early 1970s, they had a number of singles on constant radio airplay.  

Emerson was one of the first to really push the envelope of the new Moog synth, and he did very creative things with it, whereas most keyboardists just used it in a fairly static way (Wakeman for one).  

Regarding guitar, Greg Lake was an amazing lead guitarist, but he rarely showed this side of his talent.  You can certainly hear this on "Karn Evil 9."  Lake was a contemporary guitar student along with Bob Fripp, so there is that influence. 

RIP Lake and Emerson.  
Thanks for that post, Chuck, very thought provoking! Did you happen to see ELP in concert?

Edited by presdoug - July 16 2021 at 07:44
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Interesting thread to read through and some good points made here. For me, ELP are definitely part of the Big Six, at least of my personal Big Six. The fact that their music is not guitar dominated has never bothered me, nor the fact that they dared to put some "silly" songs on their albums - on the contrary: I like that diversity and that they don't feel the need to be always that serious in their songs/music; it's part of their qualities. I also like the bombast, but I can understand that (nowadays) people are less convinced by those aspects of their music. So be it. For me, and I think also in rock history, they have an important place.

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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Who are the "big six" again? I can never get it straight, cuz I'm never sure if it's about popularity, sales, concert ticket sales, critical acclaim, influence, historical significance, contribution to the evolution of music, songs, or best album covers. I think I'd have a different six for each and every one of those categories!

Surely to be "big" a number of criteria need to be met, not just one, popularity (which may be considered at the time vs. in the long run, among listeners who appreciate prog stuff vs. general audience - although I think it's pointless to separate this from sales or ticket sales), critical acclaim, innovation, influence (all of which feed into "historical significance), possibly longevity, and "prog credentials" (on which some think they should rule out Tull and PF; have fun with that argument). Some trading off is allowed (KC are weaker commercially than a number of bands but overall far more innovative than for example Genesis let alone Rush) but still a certain minimum should be required on all criteria.

Surely also hardly any of these is 100% objective and can always be argued, and putting a threshold between the "big 6" or whatever (big 3? big 10?) and the rest is always going to be artificial and one can argue endlessly. However I think the bands mostly listed as "big 6" (Yes, Genesis, ELP, KC, Pink Floyd, Tull) are those that do more or less well in all categories, and honestly, I don't see Rush, VDGG, Gentle Giant, or whoever that close. As a Can fan of course I'd like to see Can up there (and according to rateyourmusic they should be in) but have to concede that they never were great for a more general audience. If I'd rank the big 6, I'd probably rank  ELP sixth personally due to their lack of consistency (for the same reason only their debut album at best would scratch my top 100) and quantity of great material compared to the others, but there's no doubt that they are special and BIG in many respects. 


Edited by Lewian - July 16 2021 at 08:17
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Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

I imagine one of the reasons their albums aren't ranked too highly is because they tended to mix well loved epic songs with shorter silly songs/ballads. If PA rated songs instead of albums, I'm sure we'd see Tarkus up there with Supper's Ready and Close To The Edge.

Hi,

I was thinking that it was the other way around. If PA rated albums instead of songs, then some other things would get a rating, but instead there are too many albums that are just a one song boogah!
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