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What's the shortest length for an "Epic"?
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Its quite hard deciding on this arbitrary line as to "how long should a song be before it can be called an epic".    Id probably say it should be at least 14 or 15 mins.   But i know there's plenty of epic songs that go on for 20 mins or more.

I think its more about the structures of the song as opposed to the lenght of them.   Its like a couple of songs on Metallica's album An Justice For All, are just shy of 10 mins long, but i wouldent call them epics, i would just call them typical songs that just drag on long lol.

I think for a song to be classed as an epic, its gotta take you on a journey, kind of tell you a story.   Bring you in and out of different moods, work like a film score song.   I think Queen's song Bohemian Rhapsody does this, but it lasts less than 7 mins.
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We’ll have to check up with the rule book
It’s just a made up word about tracks with changing segments that feel grandiose...and long. Personally speaking, I always thought of Genesis Can-utility and The Coastliners as a mini-epic.
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Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

Headlong (7:30)
one of the best mini-epics in prog
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I have become used to drawing the line at 15:00.
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I would posit that "Wonderous Stories" by Yes has all of the elements of an "epic," and it is only 3:54.
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Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
The "difference" I hope to make is to generate some interest in the music, but something "special" is not necessarily my aim (I kind of don't like the word).
...

Hi,

Having been a writer for almost 50 years, I can tell you that the "generate some interest in the music", is a bit of a fallacy ... so during a period of your life you spend X amount of hours on such and such, and in the end, it didn't matter ... you end up feeling like you could just have done 3 minutes and maybe come close to what you thought.

The hard part of all this, is that you can NOT predict your audience, even if you think you are doing the very thing they like ... only to find them ignoring you ... which kinda means ... just do your thing and stop worrying about anything else ... it's bad enough that you have to change this note here or there, only to find that someone in the audience doesn't like it!

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
  I disagree that defining something by length is "insane" (???).  
...

Length is a bit of an illusion ... sometimes you can go after a whale and it takes 700 pages or go after a war and it takes 1000 pages ... then you get a pulp writer, and the whale can be done in 50 pages and the war in 10 (gotta hide all the bad stuff!!!).

However, other than pop rockers, I have never heard anyone else complaint about "length" in anything ... and us thinking that something or other is "epic" because of its length, kinda states that the definition of the term has changed over time, and is now relegated to the top of the pops as well ... 

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
I'm focusing on epics partly because as I look at my top Prog tracks, most of them are the lengthy ones.  
...

I would not even consider focusing on "epics" ... if you are going to create YOUR OWN EPIC, it will not be modelled after anything else, and the faster you recognize that, the better ... you do not want to be compared to someone else, or something else, specially when so many of those "epics" are just another song format extended, and should not, more than likely, be considered "epic" because it has nothing new to show us. Or worse ... the lyrics told you so! And you, the fool, believed it!

I'm writing another novel, and it flows on its own ... the design is "its own", and not something that I have thought about (I don't often know what it is all about until the end!) ... my characters are "free" in that they want to do this or go there and so on, and it is fine, it's still a story about those characters, and the fact that one moment that they wanted to go into the pie shop to buy an apple pie for mamma, is part of the whole ... not something that gets taken out because you want to cut down "its length".

From a writer's perspective, it is all about your desire to create something ... but you are adding too many filters in front of you, so you can create something that everyone else will like the same as they did other pieces ... and in MY EXPERIENCE ... the less filters you use, the better things will turn out ... and you work the music to clarify the point ... not bend the music to fit a style or something as silly as an "epic".




Edited by moshkito - April 26 2021 at 20:16
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I go with the 15 minute mark myself.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
The "difference" I hope to make is to generate some interest in the music, but something "special" is not necessarily my aim (I kind of don't like the word).
...

Hi,

Having been a writer for almost 50 years, I can tell you that the "generate some interest in the music", is a bit of a fallacy ... so during a period of your life you spend X amount of hours on such and such, and in the end, it didn't matter ... you end up feeling like you could just have done 3 minutes and maybe come close to what you thought.

The hard part of all this, is that you can NOT predict your audience, even if you think you are doing the very thing they like ... only to find them ignoring you ... which kinda means ... just do your thing and stop worrying about anything else ... it's bad enough that you have to change this note here or there, only to find that someone in the audience doesn't like it!

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
  I disagree that defining something by length is "insane" (???).  
...

Length is a bit of an illusion ... sometimes you can go after a whale and it takes 700 pages or go after a war and it takes 1000 pages ... then you get a pulp writer, and the whale can be done in 50 pages and the war in 10 (gotta hide all the bad stuff!!!).

However, other than pop rockers, I have never heard anyone else complaint about "length" in anything ... and us thinking that something or other is "epic" because of its length, kinda states that the definition of the term has changed over time, and is now relegated to the top of the pops as well ... 

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
I'm focusing on epics partly because as I look at my top Prog tracks, most of them are the lengthy ones.  
...

I would not even consider focusing on "epics" ... if you are going to create YOUR OWN EPIC, it will not be modelled after anything else, and the faster you recognize that, the better ... you do not want to be compared to someone else, or something else, specially when so many of those "epics" are just another song format extended, and should not, more than likely, be considered "epic" because it has nothing new to show us. Or worse ... the lyrics told you so! And you, the fool, believed it!

I'm writing another novel, and it flows on its own ... the design is "its own", and not something that I have thought about (I don't often know what it is all about until the end!) ... my characters are "free" in that they want to do this or go there and so on, and it is fine, it's still a story about those characters, and the fact that one moment that they wanted to go into the pie shop to buy an apple pie for mamma, is part of the whole ... not something that gets taken out because you want to cut down "its length".

From a writer's perspective, it is all about your desire to create something ... but you are adding too many filters in front of you, so you can create something that everyone else will like the same as they did other pieces ... and in MY EXPERIENCE ... the less filters you use, the better things will turn out ... and you work the music to clarify the point ... not bend the music to fit a style or something as silly as an "epic".





Well said
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People keep using the word "feel" to describe songs; I think feel determines epic. Rise, fall, drama, etc. Some songs do it in three mins, some take several and still get nowhere lol.

Here's a question: what's the WORST epic, regardless of length, PA?

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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

People keep using the word "feel" to describe songs; I think feel determines epic. Rise, fall, drama, etc. Some songs do it in three mins, some take several and still get nowhere lol.

Here's a question: what's the WORST epic, regardless of length, PA?

Yes, "Fly from Here," Parts I through V. 
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

People keep using the word "feel" to describe songs; I think feel determines epic. Rise, fall, drama, etc. Some songs do it in three mins, some take several and still get nowhere lol.

Here's a question: what's the WORST epic, regardless of length, PA?

Yes, "Fly from Here," Parts I through V. 

Any other contenders? I'll make a loose thread/maybe a poll. I feel like this is more challenging and interesting LOL.

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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

People keep using the word "feel" to describe songs; I think feel determines epic. Rise, fall, drama, etc. Some songs do it in three mins, some take several and still get nowhere lol.

Here's a question: what's the WORST epic, regardless of length, PA?

Yes, "Fly from Here," Parts I through V. 

Any other contenders? I'll make a loose thread/maybe a poll. I feel like this is more challenging and interesting LOL.


Every track from TFTO.

Honourable mentions: Hergest Ridge, Ommadawn
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

People keep using the word "feel" to describe songs; I think feel determines epic. Rise, fall, drama, etc. Some songs do it in three mins, some take several and still get nowhere lol.

Here's a question: what's the WORST epic, regardless of length, PA?

Yes, "Fly from Here," Parts I through V. 

Any other contenders? I'll make a loose thread/maybe a poll. I feel like this is more challenging and interesting LOL.


Every track from TFTO.

Honourable mentions: Hergest Ridge, Ommadawn

In all honesty, I have to nominate CTTE.  I just don't get it, and I have tried again and again.  I actually find it quite painful....Embarrassed
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Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

We’ll have to check up with the rule book
...

Hi,

Nononono. (kinda quoting MP) .... we gotta create a committee, to decide on a committee so we can start deciding on a rule book first. THEN, we can start on what rules to put there ... the first one is, of course, .... (use your imagination!).
Big smile

Wink

Smile
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

People keep using the word "feel" to describe songs; I think feel determines epic. Rise, fall, drama, etc. Some songs do it in three mins, some take several and still get nowhere lol.

Here's a question: what's the WORST epic, regardless of length, PA?

Hi,

Kevin Ayers throwing up in one album?
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In order for something to be epic, it has to be narrative in one way or another, no? I believe many so-called 'epics' in prog are more related to f.e. movements in symphonies.

Btw, it's weird how people use the word 'epic' today, f.e. in the meanings 'great', 'amazing', 'weird in an entertaining way' and so on.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
The "difference" I hope to make is to generate some interest in the music, but something "special" is not necessarily my aim (I kind of don't like the word).
...

Hi,

Having been a writer for almost 50 years, I can tell you that the "generate some interest in the music", is a bit of a fallacy ... so during a period of your life you spend X amount of hours on such and such, and in the end, it didn't matter ... you end up feeling like you could just have done 3 minutes and maybe come close to what you thought.

The hard part of all this, is that you can NOT predict your audience, even if you think you are doing the very thing they like ... only to find them ignoring you ... which kinda means ... just do your thing and stop worrying about anything else ... it's bad enough that you have to change this note here or there, only to find that someone in the audience doesn't like it!

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
  I disagree that defining something by length is "insane" (???).  
...

Length is a bit of an illusion ... sometimes you can go after a whale and it takes 700 pages or go after a war and it takes 1000 pages ... then you get a pulp writer, and the whale can be done in 50 pages and the war in 10 (gotta hide all the bad stuff!!!).

However, other than pop rockers, I have never heard anyone else complaint about "length" in anything ... and us thinking that something or other is "epic" because of its length, kinda states that the definition of the term has changed over time, and is now relegated to the top of the pops as well ... 

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

...
I'm focusing on epics partly because as I look at my top Prog tracks, most of them are the lengthy ones.  
...

I would not even consider focusing on "epics" ... if you are going to create YOUR OWN EPIC, it will not be modelled after anything else, and the faster you recognize that, the better ... you do not want to be compared to someone else, or something else, specially when so many of those "epics" are just another song format extended, and should not, more than likely, be considered "epic" because it has nothing new to show us. Or worse ... the lyrics told you so! And you, the fool, believed it!

I'm writing another novel, and it flows on its own ... the design is "its own", and not something that I have thought about (I don't often know what it is all about until the end!) ... my characters are "free" in that they want to do this or go there and so on, and it is fine, it's still a story about those characters, and the fact that one moment that they wanted to go into the pie shop to buy an apple pie for mamma, is part of the whole ... not something that gets taken out because you want to cut down "its length".

From a writer's perspective, it is all about your desire to create something ... but you are adding too many filters in front of you, so you can create something that everyone else will like the same as they did other pieces ... and in MY EXPERIENCE ... the less filters you use, the better things will turn out ... and you work the music to clarify the point ... not bend the music to fit a style or something as silly as an "epic".
 
 
Moshkito, seems like you're making too many assumptions about what I expect and/or understand or should expect/understand, therefore I should do or not do X or Y.  To your last responses:
  •  I've already generated some interest when I sent out my initial video to an email list that I normally use to announce my radio programs. Got about 10 views and a couple responses. One respondent replied "I really like Marillion..." (he's never heard them before).   Thats great! I've and I'm happy with such "generated" interest. Not sure how that could be considered a "fallacy".  
  • I'm not concerned about "predict[ing] [my] audience".  If in the future I post, say, on Youtube, (which I may or may not eventually do, but I will be posting first on Vimeo) the audience is whoever wants to watch. I might get 10 views or 1000 or a million. Whatever; video websites are open media outlets, and the audiences create themselves, (along with all the accompanying comments, likes/dislikes etc.)
  • Saying "length is a bit of an illusion" just sounds somehow cryptic to me. (OK, call me confused if you like Confused).
  • ..and I'm aware that word meanings can change over time, and I'm perfectly OK with that. Maybe a song I include in a video is, according to some technical or purist definition, not "Epic". So What? As you can see from this thread, nobody even here on a prog-rock site can agree on what "epic" is. I'm drawing some opinions from others as a factor, but ultimately I'll define it the way I want for my own purposes.
  • Yes, I'm going to focus on Epics/longer prog. rock tracks as a category of music. I may in the future also do some videos of prog sub-genres (like Folk, Italiano, etc.) but for now I'm doing this.  And no, I'm not concerned about creating "my own epic", (whatever you meant by that). I like to share music, and to me the longer tracks generally are the better ones. That's not to say that there aren't some great short prog songs, I just happen to think the longer ones are generally the best that Prog Rock has to offer, i.e., "Epics".
Seems you're well-intentioned (sometimes hard to tell online, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt) and I'm guessing, with your years of experience, that you are at least a very good, if not a great writer. But almost nothing you said is ringing with me, possibly (in part at least) because what I'm making is more of a compilation, not a creative work in the same sense as a novel. That doesn't mean I'm not using some creative elements (fades, transitions, etc.) but overall it really is about the music and the artists who made it more than anything. Didn't you say in an earlier post, something about it being "about the music"? Ok, I agree.  Placing videos into categories of longer and shorter "Epics" is NOT going to detract in any way from THAT.



 


Edited by zwordser - April 27 2021 at 16:09
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