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What's the shortest length for an "Epic"?
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twseel View Drop Down
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Points: 22767 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twseel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2021 at 03:35
Intuitively I would have said 15 minutes, but maybe that's also because of the association with filled up LP sides. Thinking about it more, indeed the type of music does matter; I think for a band with a more concise sound like Gentle Giant I would probably call it an epic from about 12 minutes, while I don't really think of Pink Floyd's side fillers ('Echoes'?) as epics as much as their style is already pretty drawn out.
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Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's more to an epic than just lenth. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signitures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine.


True enough about other factors, though length, for me, will be the biggest factor. 

This may be another, (though related) topic, but I'm not quite sure that "extended instrumental" passages necessarily make a track "epic".  In fact I was going to dis-include anything that was what you might call an "extended jam", though the only track for my purposes that is really on the fence here is Zappa's "Gumbo Variations"-- I really love it, and its superb instrumentation, but it has more of a jam quality, and I'm not sure I'd call it "epic".  I guess it depends on how you define the word.

I love this point ^, bringing the jam song into the conversation. This factor definitely comes into play if you're going to use the term "epic" since, as SteveG says, drama, varying perspectives, etc. are keys to the classic term "epic" or, as the Norse use, the term "saga", for instrumentals, "symphonies" and "concerti" with their "movements."

Personally, I just simplify everything and go to length as the great equalizer: 9-12 mins. are "mid-length epics" and "12+" "long epics"--just as you described in your OP.

  
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Epic as in dragged out or epic as in a powerful piece, symphonic perhaps.

Something may be epic right from the beginning (e.g. Kashmir, Stargazer) as opposed to waiting for the thing to end forget how it began thus demanding repeated plays.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's more to an epic than just lenth. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signitures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine.


that's just fine with me.
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's more to an epic than just length. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signatures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine.
Thumbs Up  100% agree. Length alone does not satisfy my expectations of an 'Epic'.
By all accounts this is an 'EPIC' song from an 'EPIC' album. and it's under 4 minutes.
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Saw this...not the holy grail , just posting it...so caveat emptor.
All you experts feel free to argue over it.  Wink
https://progreport.com/top-20-prog-epic-songs/

We asked you guys to send is your top 3 Prog Epics a few weeks ago and now we are pleased to reveal the results.  Here are the Top 20 Prog Epic songs as voted by you, the fans.  (So you can’t get mad at us ????).

1 Genesis – Supper’s Ready
2 Yes – Close to the Edge
3 Rush – 2112
4 Dream Theater – A Change of Seasons
5 Transatlantic – Stranger in Your Soul
6 Dream Theater – Octavarium
7 Transatlantic – The Whirlwind
8 Porcupine Tree – Anesthetize
9 Pink Floyd – Echoes
10 Yes – Awaken
11 Yes – Gates of Delirium
12 Dream Theater – Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
13 ELP – Tarkus
14 Jethro Tull – Thick As A Brick
15 Spock’s Beard – The Great Nothing
16 The Flower Kings –  Stardust We Are
17 Transatlantic – All of the Above
18 ELP – Karn Evil #9
19 Haken – Visions
20 Pink Floyd – Shine On You Crazy Diamond
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5
No idea,  just posting this past link on same topic from July 2020....but 15 minutes gets mentioned often.

I still believe my definition of "epic" from the previous thread is correct:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Ten minutes, a chord change, and a few quotes from Greek mythology sung by a guy in a funny outfit.

I tend to agree...over 10 minutes ..multiple chord changes....a myth works because that was what many of the original epic poems were all about btw...long tales with gods and or the supernatural...of course this is now and we are talking about songs so like everything else the word has been co opted.
 Oh....a guy in a funny suit is optional. Wink


Edited by dr wu23 - April 25 2021 at 09:37
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Yep, most of that list is in my top 50 or so for the 12+m category (besides a couple there I haven't heard), though, not quite in that order.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5
No idea,  just posting this past link on same topic from July 2020....but 15 minutes gets mentioned often.

I still believe my definition of "epic" from the previous thread is correct:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Ten minutes, a chord change, and a few quotes from Greek mythology sung by a guy in a funny outfit.

I tend to agree...over 10 minutes ..multiple chord changes....a myth works because that was what many of the original epic poems were all about btw...long tales with gods and or the supernatural...of course this is now and we are talking about songs so like everything else the word has been co opted.
 Oh....a guy in a funny suit is optional. Wink

I was joking, of course (although capes, codpieces and fox heads seem to follow prog epics). I am not really interested about the length of a piece in regards to the work being epic. Obviously, there is a point where a simple song passes through the portal of "epicness". 

I would suggest there are at least a few prog songs that are epic and clock in at over 5 or 6 minutes. I would consider "Comfortably Numb" at 6:21 as epic. So too, "Bohemian Rhapsody" at 5:55 is epic. And who could argue that this composition at 5:45 does not exhibit every aspect of what could be defined as epic:
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

I've started producing some videos for my top Epic tracks; eventually I intend to post them online, (maybe even here), but I'm still sort of in the "practice" mode, having just completed the first (with some good epics outside my top 50).  I've decided to work on two series: one for longer and one for shorter Epics, with the dividing line for length at about 12 minutes.
...

Hi,

Honestly, if you want to make a difference and put together something special, I really think that you should concentrate more on the work itself than its length at this time ... 

The idea that the length defines something is insane, and I like to say something more for the top of the pop'rs around here ... so if that is your aim ... go ahead, but I think that your work will be diluted and not worthy of attention!

Plz don't be like that one guy that had really good stuff, but he cut it all down to 3 minutes for some kind of invisible audience, and the work is like a half eaten steak by your dog on your plate ... just sad, all around, that someone has no idea what it means to be "artistic" and is more concerned with length ... we should talk to Wagner, btw ... see if he cares?
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10 min.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5
No idea,  just posting this past link on same topic from July 2020....but 15 minutes gets mentioned often.

I still believe my definition of "epic" from the previous thread is correct:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Ten minutes, a chord change, and a few quotes from Greek mythology sung by a guy in a funny outfit.

I tend to agree...over 10 minutes ..multiple chord changes....a myth works because that was what many of the original epic poems were all about btw...long tales with gods and or the supernatural...of course this is now and we are talking about songs so like everything else the word has been co opted.
 Oh....a guy in a funny suit is optional. Wink

I was joking, of course (although capes, codpieces and fox heads seem to follow prog epics). I am not really interested about the length of a piece in regards to the work being epic. Obviously, there is a point where a simple song passes through the portal of "epicness". 

I would suggest there are at least a few prog songs that are epic and clock in at over 5 or 6 minutes. I would consider "Comfortably Numb" at 6:21 as epic. So too, "Bohemian Rhapsody" at 5:55 is epic. And who could argue that this composition at 5:45 does not exhibit every aspect of what could be defined as epic:



The problem, as always, is one of definition and is subjective ( especially here on 'prog rock analysis' forum). How  one wants to  define 'epic' is the issue here.
Those are all great tracks you mentioned...for me they are not epic prog tracks but again it's all subjective.
To paraphrase and steal  an old saying...I can't tell you what is or isn't epic prog ,but I know it when I hear it.   Wink
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Here is another thread with many suggestions of short epics... (if you agree or not...).

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If I listen to an epic backwards, thus giving me a negative time, would you not get progressively shorter songs the longer the song is backwards, and thus cause the universe to collapse and ruin my breakfast?
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Here is another thread with many suggestions of short epics... (if you agree or not...).


Yeah, I searched the topic before posting, but should have set the search back further.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by zwordser zwordser wrote:

I've started producing some videos for my top Epic tracks; eventually I intend to post them online, (maybe even here), but I'm still sort of in the "practice" mode, having just completed the first (with some good epics outside my top 50).  I've decided to work on two series: one for longer and one for shorter Epics, with the dividing line for length at about 12 minutes.
...

Hi,

Honestly, if you want to make a difference and put together something special, I really think that you should concentrate more on the work itself than its length at this time ... 

The idea that the length defines something is insane, and I like to say something more for the top of the pop'rs around here ... so if that is your aim ... go ahead, but I think that your work will be diluted and not worthy of attention!

Plz don't be like that one guy that had really good stuff, but he cut it all down to 3 minutes for some kind of invisible audience, and the work is like a half eaten steak by your dog on your plate ... just sad, all around, that someone has no idea what it means to be "artistic" and is more concerned with length ... we should talk to Wagner, btw ... see if he cares?


The "difference" I hope to make is to generate some interest in the music, but something "special" is not necessarily my aim (I kind of don't like the word).  I disagree that defining something by length is "insane" (???).  I'm focusing on epics partly because as I look at my top Prog tracks, most of them are the lengthy ones.  Not quite sure what you're getting at with the last paragraph, but I'm modeling the vids somewhat after some I've seen and liked, with a few extras.
Z
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There are lots of tracks around the 10 min mark that to me have an epic feel. Achilles Last Stand, Kashmir, Stargazer and a few more on the more rock side. Xanadu,the Camera Eye, Cygnus x1, Eleventh Earl of Mar,One for the Vine, Mad Man Moon, Nimrodel etc. Other tracks like Come Sail Away and Fools overture ( a smidgen over 10 mins) have an epic feel.
Think it's more the feel rather than the length that appeals to me, one of my " epic " favourite tracks is Al Stewart's Roads to Moscow that is only just 8 mins long.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Saw this...not the holy grail , just posting it...so caveat emptor.
All you experts feel free to argue over it.  Wink
https://progreport.com/top-20-prog-epic-songs/

We asked you guys to send is your top 3 Prog Epics a few weeks ago and now we are pleased to reveal the results.  Here are the Top 20 Prog Epic songs as voted by you, the fans.  (So you can’t get mad at us ????).

1 Genesis – Supper’s Ready
2 Yes – Close to the Edge
3 Rush – 2112
4 Dream Theater – A Change of Seasons
5 Transatlantic – Stranger in Your Soul
6 Dream Theater – Octavarium
7 Transatlantic – The Whirlwind
8 Porcupine Tree – Anesthetize
9 Pink Floyd – Echoes
10 Yes – Awaken
11 Yes – Gates of Delirium
12 Dream Theater – Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
13 ELP – Tarkus
14 Jethro Tull – Thick As A Brick
15 Spock’s Beard – The Great Nothing
16 The Flower Kings –  Stardust We Are
17 Transatlantic – All of the Above
18 ELP – Karn Evil #9
19 Haken – Visions
20 Pink Floyd – Shine On You Crazy Diamond


I don't disagree with anything on this list.

I also agree with whomever spoke of rise and fall in drama and tension being good indicators. Song length is irrelevant if those characteristics are achieved IMHO! Most of my favorite pieces just happen to be chronologically longer, simply because I enjoy more music from those bands. Example: most people despise Yes TFTGO saying it's too long, padded, etc.; I love it FOR those reasons. It sounds like Yes making more music for my ears to hear, and that's all I care about lol.

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Headlong (7:30) and Common Ground (7:00) by IQ are both definitely epic to my ears.  I'm sure there are many others by a lot of bands - to me, they don't have to all be so long to be epic....
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I'd say don't worry about length and focus on content. Let that dictate how long it needs to be. If you make it too short it might feel rushed. For me "epic" would need to involve multiple suites and at least 10 minutes long.

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