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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"? |
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A Crimson Mellotron 
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 Posted: March 14 2021 at 07:27 |
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Lewian
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:45 |
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The thing about this is that it illustrates the potential of the "what is music and where does it stop" discussion. I'm pretty sure Cage had such discussions, surely he was thinking about the limitations of the "music" concept and how to extend them. I saw this once live performed by G. Ligeti, who also introduced and discussed it. It serves as drawing people's attention to what else can be heard, it surely isn't "nothing". It did a lot paving the way for introducing all kinds of noises and sounds into western music, be it the "high brow" academic variety, or be it later the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Can... Understanding "what's in it" requires to listen properly, but a major quality of it is also "extra-musical" and intellectual, if you want, in its provocative but also its educating quality. Now is that music? Requiring a straight yes or no answer misses the point. For me listening to all kinds of noises consciously as "musical" is something of a familiar habit, but it probably wouldn't be without pioneers like Cage. The magnificent fart thing probably wouldn't have existed either, surely not on youtube.
Edited by Lewian - March 14 2021 at 10:47 |
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Icarium
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:54 |
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^ Like the best sound effect in horror music was not the music or ambience but the absence of sound - silence - which also servs as one of Dr Whos most chilling enemys - The Silence
Bernard Hermann helped to widen the pallet of what music were supposed to sound like or were not supposed to be. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6kv9gVBWDo Edited by Icarium - March 14 2021 at 10:58 |
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Lewian
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:56 |
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By the way I can totally see Doug's annoyance about people who say "hip hop is not music" particularly if it can be suspected that this means for them "as a music lover it doesn't even fall in my area" as a cheap excuse to not give it a chance. This is indeed worse than saying "I don't like it" - of course everyone is not only entitled to not like it but also to not listen to it after the first or second unenjoyable experience. However "it's not music" seems to raise the dislike on some kind of superficially general and "objective" level where it really shouldn't be. Now the thing is that (as I wrote earlier) the term music is floating in meaning and somebody else can say "my music definition is X, and what is music and what I like are two different matters, I hear a lot of hip hop and like it but it still is not music to me", which then would be a different cup of tea altogether. And none of these has in the first place to do with one's colour of skin or age, although these attitudes are for sure not equally distributed over all skin colours and ages, and chances are there are people who hate it and are also racist and these two are connected... which can all be said without stereotyping anyone in particular. |
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:56 |
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Re '4:33': Cage was trying to get people to increase their awareness, to listen to the sounds around them as if they were composed music.
It takes a bit of concentration and mental discipline, it is similar to meditation. I often use this sort of mental discipline to shut off extraneous thoughts and get some sleep. It works, but it takes effort. Edited by Easy Money - March 14 2021 at 10:57 |
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JD
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:59 |
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I seem to remember hearing or reading something way back in the ancient times (circa 70's) that he performed it outside in a downtown area (NYC ??) and that the sounds of the environment became the music. Perhaps more of a metaphysical piece than a purely musical exploration. The most fascinating part of this concept to me is no matter how skilled the musican(s) performing are, the piece can never be played the same twice.
Edited by JD - March 14 2021 at 10:59 |
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Lewian
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:00 |
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True. I also once saw Cage in a video commenting on it, and he seemed far more interested in meditation than provocation, although I find it hard to believe that he wasn't aware of the provocative side of it.
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:05 |
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SteveG
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:05 |
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If a piece of symphonic music devolved into randem orchestral sounds and then further devolved into randem accoustic sounds before resuming back to full symphonic music, is all of it considered to be music?
Edited by SteveG - March 14 2021 at 11:11 |
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Awesoreno
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 12:11 |
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Whoops. Sorry. We turned it around by the end though! But yeah. Again, this thread name refers to an opinion I do not hold, though I probably could have named it or explained it better. It was a rushed job.
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 06:24 |
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Funnily enough, someone just posted this article about the Cage piece on FB. I found it interesting, as though I was aware of some of the history surrounding the piece, I definitely didn’t know it all. Others may too find it an interesting read. Or not. 😜 “Music, noise. Sound, silence. There’s no difference. It’s just perception. The croak of a frog can be just as musical as the purr of a cello if you choose to hear it that way.” |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 06:27 |
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I’d also add, that I rather like gc / nc’s album from this year, Deprecated, which challenges how music is made and sounds to a certain degree.
“Through the use of magnets, reed switches and arduino's (microcontrollers) in conjunction with audio coding environment SuperCollider, gc / nc turn bicycles into electroacoustic instruments. The wheels of the bicycle are controlling the sound of their instruments – a guitar and a synthesizer. The musicians have to spin the wheels to produce sound. The bicycle wheels open up new sound possibilities for the musicians, but function also as disruptive elements, a voluntary self-sabotage, since they are not able to play their instruments in the conventional manner. Piezo discs enable them to use the bicycle as a percussive instrument and to create tones with the spokes. A radio is used to record small fragments of radio channels which are directly used in the performances. When on tour, gc / nc always borrow a bicycle from a local, which they then prepare for the concert.” |
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siLLy puPPy
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 07:51 |
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I'll sum it all up. Yes, it's music (whatever it is) and it's OK if you don't comprehend it or like it. Even random noise can be considered music by some so whatever. Spoken word albums are not music and neither are sound samples from nature. Birds singing may be musical but i think music is defined as being composed by humans. So let's not take away the one thing our species has gotten right
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BaldJean
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 08:46 |
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the muses were actually Goddesses of the arts, literature and science. there were nine of them: Καλλιοπη (Calliope), the muse of epic poetry Κλειω (Clio), the muse of history Ευτερπη (Euterpe), the muse of lyric poetry Θαλεια (Thalia), the muse of comedy Μελπομενη (Melpomene), the muse of tragedy Τερψιχορη (Terpsichore), the muse of dance Ερατω (Erato), the muse of love poetry Πολυμνια (Polymnia, also Polyhymnia), the muse of sacred poetry Ουρανιη (Ourania, commonly spelled Urania), the muse of astronomy sorry for the rant, but as a High Priestess of Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth, Greek mythology is something I excel in
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Lewian
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 09:03 |
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Definitions are made by humans and can be made in a different manner by different humans. Who has the power to define such a term in a binding way?
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Erenan
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 09:34 |
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yes
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siLLy puPPy
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PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15252 |
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 09:36 |
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Definitions exist by consensus. If i call a banana a moojiecankaflan, it doesn't mean someone else will understand it. Since we have no friggin idea what birds are conveying then should we call it music? It could be just bird speech. Spoken words have a rhythmic musicality as well. While vocal sound arrangements can indeed be music as heard in countless genre across the millennia, the term music usually is associated with some sort of musical composition. I would vote that we need a richer nomenclature to describe musical utterances from our little avian relatives. It's similar to biology and science. No term is iron clad perfect but it pretty much delivers a relevant methodology of managing complex systems. Of course, not everyone will agree and not everything will fit neatly into every category. Just look at the period table of elements for example. Mercury is a liquid at room temperature despite being a metal. Neon and Helium just don't like dating other elements and oxygen is usually the slut of any solution. Patterns emerge but then some wiley compound defies all expectations. Same with music i guess. According to some dictionary definitions, music can also refer to an aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sounds or combination of sounds even in reference to nature so when i stated that i was referring to how i personally distinguish music composition from pleasing combinations of sound clusters. In other words, i was referring simply to marketing strategies not the more subtle distinctions of how one could define music. The word genre connotes a commercial aspect of music which is what this thread is about. At least i thought so!  |
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 10:00 |
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Bird songs have rhythm, pitch, repeating melodic motifs with variations and are used for specific communications.
Sounds like music to me. They are very intelligent and do not babble a bunch of nonsense with no purpose. Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2021 at 10:01 |
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BaldJean
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 10:11 |
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on the cover of the Guru Guru album "Mani und seine Freunde" Mani Neumeier thanks "my friends the birds who I consider to be the true professional musicians"
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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siLLy puPPy
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Posted: March 16 2021 at 10:12 |
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Not a genre though. At least not yet. A washing machine could be considered music too. In fact there are guitarists who play with them as the percussive backing but as far as i know, still not a genre of music. As far as birds go, we really don't know what they are conveying so whether its nonsense or not is undetermined however i tend to agree with you that they are conveying a purposeful message. It's just that the evidence is elusive in an absolute confirmation. I would guess that it's a combination of meaning and non-meaning just like a piano roll doesn't have any meaning beyond an emotional reaction.
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Grumpyprogfan wrote: