Are Certain Genres Not "Music"? |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Er, well,. there is surely no need to indulge in "you're racist" the moment somebody says he think hip hop is crap. Is that really such a big deal? I could point to a hundred different music genres/sub genres that metalheads used to routinely dub as crap. It may be unpleasant to be highly opinionated but it's not a crime. And again, this reflexively presuming racism when someone bashes hip hop is an American thing. While hip hop has universal following, it isn't nearly as popular in many other parts of the world as in America so that strong correlation that seems to naturally come to say doug's mind doesn't occur to many of us. We don't necessarily think of hip hop as a proxy for a black sub culture (and it's no longer anyway, I mean, Eminem, Machine Gun Kelly); it's just another kind of music and one that still polarizes opinions because of its inherent design. It will take a couple more generations of ubiquity before hip hop as a very normal idea of music comes to be.
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dougmcauliffe
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^ I didn't call him racist anywhere in that comment though.... as a matter of fact, he edited his comment to call me racist
The stereotype I was referring to was the old bud light guzzling 55+ white guy who takes to facebook on the regular to preach about snowflake millennials and how they just don't make music like they used to as he turns on Close to the Edge for the 6th time this week.... there's a wine mom equivalent. But there's no motive to put down any race in my comment or suggest that the other user is racist, at the end of the day, there's only really one demographic of people who regularly go out of their way to completely write off Hip Hop and call it "not music." I think I pointed out in another comment some of the implications that one might presume by hearing someone say "hip hop is not music," wether intended or not. The thing is, hip hop really is a proxy for black culture and there's no denying that's where the real meat of the genre comes from. While Eminem and MGK have had big success in the genre, they don't represent the overwhelming bigger picture, much of the most influential and archetype hip hop records stem from an expression of issues and prejudices faced by the African American community, and that's why I say making those bigoted comments carry some pretty nasty undertones to them. Even the grammys came under fire for compartmentalizing and segregating certain African American fronted music into a category called "urban contemporary music" that could easily just fall into the pop or RnB category. I struggle to see how recognizing that hip hop is a very predominantly black-led art is an American thing, it seems pretty universal to me.
Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 12 2021 at 20:21 |
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Hrychu
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I like both hip hop and prog.
Both genres can have good and bad music. Edited by Hrychu - March 12 2021 at 20:03 |
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dougmcauliffe
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"This is the most ignorant comment i've read here" The irony "I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17." You just made a bizarre unhinged post earlier about how you haven't left your house in months, as if i'm going to believe you've been making a sustainable living, in other words: a professional, musician since you were a teenager. "Your comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad because you can't play an instrument." I mean, I can play an instrument, I don't have to prove that to you but that is, as a matter of fact, what I go to school for. So in other words, that is "incorrect and ignorant." What trendy s**t? Later, you racist stereotype. Man, if not being narrow minded and blissfully intolerant towards entire subcultures and genres of music is all it takes to be a racist stereotype, than I am a racist stereotype
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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This is what I am talking about. A lot of people who don't like hip hop aren't white and may not even be old. You're going to have deal with it. Not everyone knows about the origins of hip hop either; again, to many people it's just music ('or not music music' according to them). For the last time, a lot of these connections that may be obvious from an American perspective are not to many from the rest of the world. I know but only because I hang out a lot in places like this. The first hip hop based song I heard wasn't even one by an African American musician. It was a composition of A R Rahman from back in the 90s. People can be nasty when they express their dislike of certain music; all nastiness isn't bigoted. An idiot metalhead acquaintance of mine was once nasty to me because I shared a ghazal on FB. But...I don't operate with these cultural or sub cultural boundaries that he seemed to so for me, it wasn't 'weird' to like both metal and ghazals (and numerous other genres). No, he wasn't being racist, just stupid which is par for the course in metal world.
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nick_h_nz
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The only person who has brought race and/or racism into the equation is MortSahlFan. Nothing Doug said was even remotely racist - unless someone chooses to take it that way. And while I agree that not all nastiness is bigoted, sometime it is, but just isn’t as immediately apparent.
Much of the reaction against hip hop (or urban) music is because it is considered “black music”. It doesn’t matter if there is the odd exception like Eminem. In fact, in some ways that makes it worse. I have known a lot of people who say they hate hip hop, but they like Eminem. I have friends for whom the only hip hop they own is Eminem. Em once famously declared he was the Elvis Presley of rap. Only, he hasn’t really been, because while Elvis made black music palatable for a white audience, white hip hop artists remain the minority. Almost every popular form of music in the Western world - rock, blues, jazz, etc. - has come from black music that has been assimilated and accepted into what white audiences are comfortable with. Hip hop remains a predominately black music, and resistant to gentrification.
But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. I wrote an article for The Progressive Aspecf last year, on 11 June, which was designated as #SpeakUpThursday and a day to “Use Your Platform” to express how you feel about how racism in music still exists today. I concentrated on “world music” because much of what I listen to is described as world music - even though it could easily be called rock, pop, jazz, folk, hip hop, soul, etc. —-//—- Systemic and inherent racism are being widely spoken about, if not always widely understood, topics at present. It might seem that music is above all that, but while by no means all who make the music, promote the music, or listen to the music are racist, there has long been an air of cultural superiority when it comes to Western music. Classical music exists throughout the world, but it tends to be white European classical music that is most exalted. Nowhere, though, is this sense of cultural superiority more obvious than when the term “world music” is used. It’s now about 30 years since the concept was created, I’d like to think with the best intentions, but the idea of world music was never a good one then. And certainly not now. Thankfully, more and more people are coming to recognise that world music is an outdated and increasingly offensive term. Artists from Western countries tend not to get stuck in the world section – just those that don’t speak English or come from “exotic” parts of the world. It can come across, intentionally or otherwise, that the only music that “matters” is that which white musicians have co-opted and made popular throughout the western world. Thus a black musician can play jazz, blues, or rock with relative impunity, but anything outside this white comfort zone is too often relegated to the musical ghetto of world music. Music should be unprejudiced, and all mu-sic should be world music. I have fallen into this trap myself recently, when I relegated Josh Feinberg’s recent album to an A Different Aspect article, stating that as much as I love it (and I do), it wasn’t really progressive. I was pulled up on this, and rightly so. “In many ways it is more progressive than a lot of prog – the polyrhythms, shifting sub-divisions, pushing and pulling of time,” I was told. I foolishly responded, thinking I was justifying myself, when I was really showing my own ignorance,that while there is no denying the complexities and intricacies of Eastern music over Western, and the use of microtones, and polyrhythms, those are standard for the style of music. Josh Feinberg is amazing, I said, but he didn’t appear to me to be doing anything to take the music out of the Hindustani framework (i.e., to make it progressive). It’s the same with a lot of things from the East. You could make the same argument for Carnatic and Gamelan, I suggested. Both are again complex and intricate, I imagine you might call them progressive, but for me, they are what they are, and it is what someone does with them that makes them progressive. But here’s the kicker, I guess. And I really should know better. Although I had the best intentions, I was letting my ignorance shine through. I am not racist, and I’d like to think most people who follow The Progressive Aspect are not racist also, but it’s important to recognise our limitations. I might well enjoy a lot of non-Western music (and I do), but I clearly don’t know enough about it, or listen to enough variety, to know just what is progressive. It has now been pointed out to me that within Indian Classical there are ‘traditionalists’, and then there are ‘progressives’ – and that Josh Feinberg is definitely in the progressive camp. I was pointed toward another example of a ‘progressive’, as opposed to a ‘traditionalist’, Shahid Parvez Khan, who “really, really pushes polyrhythms and polymetrics, weird mathy subdivisions and changes. When I saw him live, there were parts where he was mimicking a delay pedal. He’s absolutely a progressive artist in the genre.” The point is, even those of us who are well aware of the prejudices in our society, and who are anti-racism, can still fall fowl of the cultural superiority that the labelling of Western music, as opposed to “world” music creates. “World” effectively means “the rest of the world that is not familiar enough, or white enough, for us to conveniently place into genres it might otherwise fall into, if we gave it more thought”. While there will always be exceptions, the vast majority of “world” music could fall into the same broad categories we use for Western music (for example, rock, folk, jazz, soul or hip hop). That they are not, is a sign that we are still not as free of prejudice as we might like I have recently consigned a review of Eishan Ensemble’s latest album to the bin, and am in the process of re-writing it, because ultimately it is a progressive jazz album (and a very good one). Why limit the potential audience of a good piece of music by affixing the word “world”? Admittedly, I did not, because I have long found that a troublesome term; but even without calling Eishan Ensemble’s music “world”, I was still framing it in a way that was unfair. This happens more often than you might think. Bands and artists that hail from non-Western countries, no matter if they play music that would be “accepted” by Western listeners, are unfairly given the label “world music”. Even if a musician moves to a Western country their origin is unfairly shackled to them. A quick google reveals two such artists: a Nigerian soul singer who moved to Germany, but whose music (despite her entreaties) is still sold as “world music” rather than soul; and a rapper from the Congo, now residing in Belgium, who would rather his music was sold as “hip hop”, but finds it still handicapped by the “world music” label. As an example of how ingrained the sense of cultural superiority is within music, I have no doubt whatsoever, that if Vodun were a band hailing from West Africa, their albums would have ended up lost in the world music section. Rather than being one of “our” bands, using West African rhythms, they would be seen as a West African band, fusing their traditional music within a Western framework. That Vodun are not considered world music merely underlines how wrong it is to use the label at all, and how essentially arbitrarily it is used. To reiterate, because I can’t make this point enough, I’m almost 100% convinced it is because Vodun are a “British” band, or else they, too, would be a “world music” band. If we, as listeners of music, want to be as progressive as the music we like to listen to, we need to start questioning some of the norms within the music industry. A friend of mine recently suggested that even a label as seemingly innocuous as “folk” can also have connotations of cultural superiority. As she pointed out, the Westernised homogeneity people assume from the label is completely counter to the so many different traditions and cultures it should span. Much “world music” is folk music, yet you won’t find it in the folk section of your local record store. And this is true for most labels, starting all the way back with classical. The labels we use instantly “favour” or evoke Western modes. Classical music includes the Indian Classical music I mentioned earlier, as Carnatic and Hindustani are just two extremely vast catalogues of music not usually thought of when someone talks of classical music. It’s perhaps also worth calling out cultural appropriation, as there are definitely times when non-Western instruments (and stereotypically, the sitar) are used for effect, without real context. I listen to plenty of white and/or Western artists who use Eastern instruments or instrumentation, but they don’t do it for effect. That’s absolutely fine. It’s when it’s used just to dress up a piece of music or add a little colour, that I find it grating. It’s like the musical equivalent of black face. But while black face is now universally reviled and recognised as being offensive, it’s musical equivalent does not (yet?) draw such ire or condemnation. But I love it when someone shows a real passion for learning about the instrument and history of music played with it. Charlie Cawood and Lachlan Dale are two great examples of this. Concluding this article is not easy, as it is hard to neatly wrap things up when there is still so much misunderstanding (some wilful, and much unintentional) regarding systemic and inherent racism. There are many people out there who are anti-racist, but due to their white privilege overlook the more subtle aspects of cultural superiority within society. There is always opportunity for learning and recognition of what could be changed for the better. I have long railed against the term world music, but still stumbled into unintentional prejudice (due to ignorance) when writing about Josh Feinberg’s album. What you take from this article is up to you. It’s up to all of us. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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When someone says it's one demographic that has this opinion of hip hop, it's very clear what that refers to unless we want to suddenly get very specific about words (when MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing against black people and only assailed hip hop). I hope you can see the contradiction in your logic but if you can't, *shrug*
I have heard progressive Italian hip hop and for the last few years Punjabi hip hop has caught on in India. So I don't agree. But again, believe whatever you wish because the strength of your beliefs are clear from the portion I am going to quote...
But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. . No! No! No! It is just a convenience, that's all. What do you think we in India call music from America, UK, Italy, et al, all put together? We just call it Western music. We don't try to get specific with subcultural classification except when we are talking about one specific genre alone. And basically anything outside India is non-Indian music even though the whole wide world is much bigger than India. Anything from the northern part of India is called north Indian by people living in the Southern part of India and vice versa even though both regions have multiple linguistic communities. There is no difference between that and what you're talking about. Of course anything from outside the Western world is called world music; that's not racist, that's just classification. Besides, blues and jazz are/were also dominated by black people and nobody today says they are 'not Western'. I already laid out why hip hop is revolutionary and why therefore it triggers strong reactions. The bad thing about this is it is so unpleasant but the good thing is it is the only music left that still challenges our views about what can be possible in music. The attacks are par for the course. Nobody attacks rock because rock is essentially dead as a dodo while a few great musicians try to keep the corpse alive. Hip hop is alive, well and thriving. Yes, some of the people who attack hip hop, like Ben Shapiro, clearly do so from a racist perspective. But to presume a racist or bigoted intent the moment somebody attacks hip hop is nearly as bad as holding racist beliefs about hip hop itself. And that is my only point in this discussion. Do NOT become what you're fighting against. You can't just jump to make presumptions about a person's identity based on his views about one music genre and then try to defend yourself with word salad. No, it was wrong to make that presumption in the first place. Oh but you are not going to admit it, you will keep justifying your and doug's position. I know how it goes.
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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I can see why you believe there is a contradiction in my logic, but you’re right that I don’t agree. Part of that, though, is that I think we inherently agree. MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing, but he did edit his post to call someone else racist. While I personally wouldn’t have brought race into the equation, the way Doug did, it was apparent to me (though this is inference, rather than implication) that he was drawing a stereotype - which is by no means the same as stating that all people act that way. Stereotypes are exaggerated, and can show prejudice in a deliberately ironic way. This was, I assume Doug’s intent. The reason I wouldn’t have done the same, is because it can be too easily misconstrued - which is what I think has happened here.
Sorry, this is my mistake. I missed off some words that I thought were implicit there. Perhaps this will make it clearer what I meant. Perhaps not. Hip Hop remains a predominantly black music for much of the white Western world, and resistant to gentrification. I come from NZ, where very little is black and white. In fact, one famous NZ hip hop star rapped “I’m not black, I’m brown.” Hip hop is definitely not seen as black music in NZ, and is embraced by people of all colours, and performed by people of all colours. I too, have listened to rap from around the world, and from people of different races. I am not stating that I think hip hop is black music, because I don’t think that.
But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. . Two wrongs don’t make a right. I fail to see what point you are making. That convenience you speak of is the inherent racism I speak of. Bizarrely every point you then go on to make, are exactly the same points I made myself. I suspect we actually agree on almost everything - perhaps even everything - but somewhere things have become confused along the way. It is likely to be more my fault than yours, as I have a history of not being able to make myself understood in the way I intend.
I didn’t make that presumption. Perhaps Doug did, but from the way I read his post, he didn’t either. I definitely do not believe, and have never espoused, that the only reason - or even the usual reason - for not liking hip hop is racial. Of course it’s not. I would very much like to think that racism is the least likely reason for not liking hip hop. I took Doug’s post to mean that he was suggesting that on this forum (not globally) that many of the people who show disdain for hip hop might fit the Ben Shapiro stereotype. That doesn’t mean he thinks everyone who doesn’t like hip hop fits the stereotype. It’s ironic, because I think you have jumped to presume things about me and Doug, in the way you think we have jumped to presumptions. Admittedly, I can’t speak for Doug - because I really don’t know what he thinks, or what he meant. I inferred from his words a meaning that was not racist. Perhaps I was wrong to do so. I infer from your words that you are making arguments no different to my own, and that everything you say is something I agree with. I suspect we are all singing from the same hymn sheet - but are merely misinterpreting each other’s words. When I initially spoke up, it was only because ModtSahlFan became personal. I have no problem with people being nasty about a genre, but they don’t need to make it personal. I assume at this point (here we go with presumptions again, sorry) that you will suggest that Doug made it personal first. But pointing out a stereotype is not making something personal - and particularly when it is not directed at any one individual. Yes, nastiness exists, and no, that nastiness is rarely as racist as some might believe. But nastiness is nastiness, regardless of racism. Why be nasty at all? 🤷🏻♂️ |
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ExittheLemming
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You seem to be conflating your opinions with facts. With arrogance like that you really should be levitating in front of us
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dougmcauliffe
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Yeah rogerthat you’re misinterpreting my comment and Nick pretty much has it right with the Ben Shapiro stereotype comparison. Calling someone racist for not liking hip hop is sh*tty, and that was not my goal. What I’m saying is that when you start using the same arguments that Ben Shapiro uses, someone who very likely does argue from a very disingenuous place, people might assume that of you. If you’re referring to me particularly saying “old and white,” that might not be a particularly comfortable way to say it, but 99% of the people I’ve ever heard who flat out say hip hop just straight up isn’t music, fit into two categories: the out of touch classic rock radio crowd who really don’t have any sort of grasp on the genre or musicality behind it, or 13 year olds who just discovered Led Zeppelin. But the main idea here is that arguing that hip hop isn’t music is a cartoonishly dated belief and I said it in an earlier comment, I would be so happy and satisfied just to hear some sort of in between of something along the lines of “I’ve never liked the genre, but I’m willing to go in with an open mind and try out a few songs. If it’s not for me that’s okay but I understand the appeal.” I’d be totally cool with that, no questions asked, but instead people would rather die on a hill that leaves a sour taste in everyone’s mouth.
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Lewian
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I don't get why people get personal about other people because they have a different taste. It's fair enough to discuss whether it has to do with race that some people dismiss hip hop, but everybody has a right to dislike it and say it, and if you're going to stereotype people based on that, there's gotta be reactions.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15252 |
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Not at all. The consensus of MANY is that hip hop is NOT MUSIC including on this thread. I'm merely demonstrating that there is a lot of hip hop that is clearly music based on the dictionary definition of music. Many misconstrue the term RAP (which is a lyrical delivery style, not the genre itself) with HIP HOP which is based on funk and has grown to incorporate different styles of music around it. Whether anybody likes those songs i shared is NOT THE POINT. The point WAS and REMAINS that they cannot deny that those samples are indeed MUSIC.
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15252 |
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^ true that i should've worded it better when i posted that
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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nick_h_nz
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This is something that is probably the most misunderstood about hip hop. Hip hop doesn't actually require rap at all to be hip hop. And two of the "four corners" of hip are not necessarily musical. Hip hop is generally acknowledged to include MC'ing (rapping), DJ'ing, Breaking (breakdancing), and Graf (graffiti art). It is possible to emcee without music (though the rapping itself might still be considered musical). It is possible to break without music. It is possible to graf without music. So, in a way, it would be possible to argue that hip hop is not music - or, at least, not entirely so. But it kind of misses the point. Hip hop music, is definitely music. It might not be a music you understand and/or enjoy, but that's about it. You hardly ever see it these days, but I remember when rap first started to really hit the charts, a lot of the artists still tended to preface their names with what they did (so MC this, and DJ that). That trend seems to have died away somewhat, as people have become more aware of hip hop culture. It is easy to dismiss that which you don't enjoy. I don't have a problem with anyone dismissing hip hop. I don't like when people make it personal. I don't like everything that my friends and family listen to, and they don't like everything I listen to. But it's never a bone of contention, because we respect each other. It sometimes that seems the relative anonymity the internet affords us, tends to make some people respect others less. By all means, let's discuss whether something is or isn't music - or even, what is music, because if we can't even agree with what music is, we can never really agree about what is or isn't music. By all means, let's discuss whether not liking something can have a basis in racism, but let's never assume that is always the case. The golden rule in my family growing up, and the one I have in my house now I have children of my own, is that if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. That doesn't mean we can't have discussion or debate, and it doesn't mean we can't cover controversial topics - but we can be civil, polite and respectful. |
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rogerthat
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Edited by rogerthat - March 13 2021 at 08:58 |
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ExittheLemming
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^ erm, you mean don't exist right?
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rogerthat
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Sorry. Yes indeed. Will make the correction. |
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ExittheLemming
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Say it loud: I'm an unrepentant old white boomer and loving a huge variety of music from all cultures across the globe. (I'm NOT a conservative but I don't think Ben Shapiro is even remotely a dick for being clueless about music) It always seems rather predictable that these types of threads invariably degenerate into how polarising Story 2 by Clipping broken down by Yogev Gabay (his You Tube channel has numerous other examples of metric and rhythmic innovation from Metal, Rock, Prog, Hip Hop, Rap, Pop, Funk, Soul (the list goes on) Edited by ExittheLemming - March 13 2021 at 09:52 |
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dougmcauliffe
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I'm having trouble trying to find more and more different ways to say the point i'm trying to get across . It's not about saying "I don't like hip hop," that's perfectly fine, not once throughout this thread have I trashed someone for simply not liking the style of music. It's when people say "hip hop is not music," that I start getting up in arms because it's not longer a matter of opinion, it's just incorrect and ignorant at that point. Like I said, I don't how many other ways I can convey this thought.
If your take away from my last comment was "Doug thinks only white boomers and teenagers don't like hip hop," you might want to read it again. I'm saying those two parties more than any other tend to sh*t out those sentiments. I'm saying to these people, don't back yourself into a corner and an unpleasant stereotype. Rather, be the cool old dude with the tie dye shirt who has a broad respect for art.
Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 13 2021 at 09:38 |
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moshkito
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Hi, Regardless of what kind of music, this is where it gets in trouble, for a definition. For example ... on one of the BBC specials on "krautrock", one of the members of FAUST, sets out to show "music" and he takes some sticks and goes to hit a couple of cement mixers! The "raw content", on its own, I do not think it "fits" as a description of "music" ... but when combined with something else, and likely having a bunch of knobs change it some, then it becomes something that we consider "music". Rap, for me is not the issue ... the only thing that is sad is the consideration that the drum machine sound, ON ITS OWN is considered an instrument, which then combined with the voice makes it "music" ... and I think this is something that likely should not be considered "music" ... but then, commercial interests love to feed the public "stuff" that makes money, and it is pretty obvious that rap/hip-hop makes a pretty good amount of money ... and at least, we're not seeing those folks complain about that their sales have dropped so much .... etc, etc, etc ... if anything they stand to gain even more if the "record company" is out of the way! I think that experimental "music" is too new for a proper definition and discussion ... I think that in another 20 to 30 years, things will likely change as the "new-ness" that rap and hip-hop offer will have fallen off some, and then something else comes along ... and all those people calling themselves "composers" and all they do is set a drum machine ... will probably not be appreciated so readily as they are now! Somewhere along the way, the words are not enough to carry you, and the "music" under it is not sustainable except on repeat!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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