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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2020 at 14:08
Hi,

Portuguese, by way of Brazil, ended up in America at 15. English is my 2nd language. Father is well known name in Portuguese Literature.

The original BBC (I think it was ... !!!) special on "kraurock" had 6 parts, and the 6th was scrambled, likely because it had too much David Bowie is my guess. Edgar's comments were on the first hour of that special, but the rest is interesting and sometimes not great ... seeing one of the FAUST folks just hit a cement mixer and calling it music, is nove and silly, but sometimes it stretches the whole thing into oblivion. But the number of folks talking in it, was excellent.

Being "there" is not important ... but the understanding is ... and my comment was more about the way that folks look at a lot of that music, instead of getting into and figuring out why it was so different. The funny thing is that this particular scene also had film, theater, and other arts and it is like no one realizes that the mixes in people's heads are basically the same but the instrument they used was a musical instrument, the other was a pen, the other a camera, the other a stage ... it's the same thing about the other great movements of arts in history ... all of the "major" periods of art included music, paintings, literature ... and so on ... thus, to simply recognize rock music by itself completely isolated from its roots, is removing it from its source.

I do not think of "shallow" when people misinterpret music or the arts ... the visceral reactions are all valid, however, many of these are related to some things that are not artistic ... like religion, and a government or two. I came from a Fascist government and if there was a "shallow" bunch of folks they were it! Same thing in Spain and Italy. To the point that my dad, who had gotten a name as a reviewer of films by Elia Kazan and other major film makers, had a publication with 30 reviews EDITED ... so the review was totally incomprehensible. Someone published these together to give folks an idea, and by the time you look at it, the comments ... just won't stop! 

As to the "death" of classical music, from its glory days that kind of ended in the 60's, when major stars sold out in minutes, to the point much later when even Pavarotti could not sell out the Met! But, in my book, Jethro Tull's cover for "Passion Play" had already predicted that ... with a dead ballerina in the cover! It was time for a new music and this has been the case.

My views on "subjective/objective" will remain private. I do believe that some folks are using "subjective" as an excuse to say something personal that has nothing to do with the art whatsoever ... sort of like ... you go to see Mona Lisa ... and say "stupid" and move on to the next room. Sadly, the history and the time and place, meant absolutely nothing, and the same thing is happening with a lot of those folks ... in my book. Doesn't make them bad people ... but I think they are hurting the music more than they are helping. 

I never find music lacking in "substance" ... what I find is the ILLUSION that lyrics often give us that this music is about this and that ... and if you take the lyrics out, no one will remember the lyrics, and your vision will be totally different than mine! I remember an album, Mahler's 3rd Symphony I think it was ... and it is all instrumental (of course), and the terror I had thinking that some rock music folks ... all they can say is ... just meandering crap that is not needed! ... and it reminds me of the end of the film by Ken Russell ... he wrote something for his wife ... and she still walked out without bothering to listen to it!

Bass guitar ... I had one for years, but never had the time to learn it ... and in the middle of those years my pinky on the left hand lost some nerves and I have switched hands ... the funny think about what I liked to play, was that I was trying to learn something else at the same time ... my teacher actually liked it ... in a bunch of songs, we would play and such, and somehow I always had a different touch of ending, that he always enjoyed hearing ... it was as if I was bored, but I wasn't ... but on different days, times and places, the feeling is different and that ending will be different again!

There are a lot of bass players I like and many I don't seem to worry too much about ... the experimental ones are the most important, since they go all over the place and almost no one else does. My tastes in music changed 55 years ago, when I became more aware of how good rock music and jazz music was ... which at the time were considered just pop music and not valuable ... but in the middle of all that I went almost straight to ECM ... sister had Keith Jarrett for several years, and then I hear Jan Garbarek and followed him (didn't click on that early jazz stuff at all!!!!), and then one day in 1972 I heard Egberto Gismonti ... and a lot of the pop music took a dump ... I only kept YES, ELP (had been with Keith since the start ... he is a classical music composer and one of the best!), The Doors (always ... movie music!!!), and a lot of the SF stuff, though I also had Chicago.

I'm not sure I can think of one I like better than the other, because so much music is so different ... but one of my favorite listens is LOTHAR MEID with Amon Duul 2 (all the way to Vive La Trance), whose touch is unlike so many others ... it's like he is on his own ... you don't think of what he is playing as "rhythm" at all ... and Renate once said that they wanted to have a sound that was more classical music oriented ... and that means that the rock music ideas are out the door, as well as the ones from the Berlin Music School ... music with no western influences! And that meant that the bass being played like we teach it ... as rhythm and must be in tune with the drums ... is not what music is about ... and I think that is a major idea ... although I would definitely step aside to hear an opinion that makes sense of the music a lot better than I did, and can explain the differences ... a "bass" in an orchestra is not there for "rhythm", thus, for my ears, a bass is wasted in a rock band, just like the drummer is, when you can use a metronome to keep track of the time, and all the drummer can do is hit the snare drum every 4 beats and double up on hits on transitions! Wow ... a great musician! No wonder it's a joke in classical music circles!

I do like Chris Squire a lot, although I think that he became a copy of himself after Relayer ... the last great album by that band for me ... but I would have a hard time comparing him to Charlie Haden, and other great well known bass players, even Stanley Clarke .... Jaco Pastorius comes to mind ... some thing it was too much, but he managed to make it seem fine within the work he was doing. Mick Karn. Tony Levin is considered one of the best Stick players, but Don Schiff is much better to my ear and the stuff he did with "The rocket Scientists" a few years back ... and his resume, is scary! You're not gonna get that much work without being good!

That's about it for now ... thx for asking!








Edited by moshkito - June 13 2020 at 00:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2020 at 15:37
 you know.. I'd pay damn good money to read a book of yours Pedro..  cheaper and safer than dope, coke, and Jack..

make it so man... get to writing..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 00:38
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

 you know.. I'd pay damn good money to read a book of yours Pedro..  cheaper and safer than dope, coke, and Jack..

make it so man... get to writing..
Hi,

Thank you Micky ... but I'm not writing about "progressive music" because there is not enough interest in it, and folks, for the most part, only want kiss-as$ material to satisfy their commercial hunger.

What I'm writing about, is something that does not interest you folks ... I'll only say it is about "improvisation" and it already has several chapters on it. However, musicians are not a part of this at all, and thus, not important for the annals of the PA global enterprise, just like they would not be interested in writers. But there are a few musicians that I have been showing this to, but as far as I know and think, only someone like ENO would be valuable for comments on it ... or maybe RICHARD PINHAS ... but I don't think they have the time to do this right. But if there was one person I would have loved to have comment on it, it would have been Daevid Allen, since so much of this work is based on some "inner conversations" that I have in dreaming (all written down already but not available until after I pass away!), because it will interfere with the image people have of GONG and their work! 

As for PA, as much as I like this place, I gave up on it a long time ago! Writers are not for them since databases don't like writers ... they like meaningless words, since the database would not know the difference.

There is some poetry (most old stuff ... I hope to update that soon! Read "You're no longer a vision, or a poem), and 3 short stories ... my novels will never be published until after I'm gone because they also feature some sex that is not for children (so to speak!) and I did not want to "censor" my characters, who had their life. To me, these stories are "all-inclusive" instead of hiding behind the peep hole and idea. I can only remember Ann Rice doing something similar, but even her "sexy" stuff is soft porn'd for my tastes, but it is way better for her novels and makes much better sense of "vampires" than anything else has in the past 100 years. 

In some ways, Micky, writing about these musical things and such, is a sort of "inspiration" for a lot of the work I do, and some folks have stated before that a lot of my poetry is "musical", and I guess it could be since there used to be some music in the background upon writing a lot of it ... but for me, specially these days, the "focus" is more valuable, pretty, in full color and the greatest movie ... with music, too, that I have never heard ... thus silence has become my greatest friend ... now you know why "lyrics" are such merde in my comments ... most of them try to convince you of the old stuff like ... Major is happy and Minor is sad, the kind of thing that jazz blew out of the universe forever ... but we still cling to "melody" in rock music and haven't grown past it!




Edited by moshkito - June 13 2020 at 01:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 06:09
ahh Pedro... you know you have always been one of my favorites here.  If not for you people would pick on me more than they do for my stream of conscious style which probably verges on the edge of unreadable.  Mine though do stay topical though so I suppose my point does get across through shear lack of tact or subtlety and pure stubbornness..

you though..wow man.. furcking A man you are out there and i mean that in a very affectionate way. You are an idealist in a way i am with many non musical avenues but yeah you are right to give up on  the forum. I count myself in that lost cause group.  Music to me is not something you think about. and your thoughtful commentary is often lost on me as my eyes glaze over and i feel an urge to snort a line and down a bottle of Jack. For me music .. much art.. is not about feeding the head but feeding the soul and that is nothing easy .. in fact is perhaps impossible .. to put into words.

that said... forum time is fun time..  but I'd do a book of yours no doubt for you do have some really interesting notions and insights into art and music...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 08:28
I like it!  Visually appealing, and interesting way to choose the albums to review.  Also, you have an engaging writing style.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 08:52
P & M: You guys make me want to laugh and you make me want to cry! You two should just get a room. (...and that bottle of Jack.)

But, seriously, I know the forums for me serve as more of a quick in-and-out--like snack food. Yet there are times (and topics--the right topics) that I'm drawn in and read everything OP to most-recent. I know far less about music and art than you guys, and my opinions are far less based in scholarship, but I know what I like (major seventh chords, odd rhythm, and space [the roomy kind, not the extraterrestrial kind]). Ofttimes I find deep, cerebral writings too dense for my little brain, but if it has humanity (major seventh chords), eccentricity (odd rhythm), and room for me to digest (space), then I'm in heaven. Plus, I am mesmerized by the mysticism of music: it's unseen, otherworldly, and has undeniably spiritual effects, and yet it is created by creatures of Creation! Such strange and unexpected circumstances!

Keep writing, you guys. I love trying to figure out where you're coming from, Micky, with your spacious "streams of consciousness," and I love trying to figure out where you're coming from, Pedro, though the density of your art is a little more work for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DocDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 07:04
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

I like it!  Visually appealing, and interesting way to choose the albums to review.  Also, you have an engaging writing style.

Thank you. that's very kind Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DocDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 07:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

Portuguese, by way of Brazil, ended up in America at 15. English is my 2nd language. Father is well known name in Portuguese Literature.

The original BBC (I think it was ... !!!) special on "kraurock" had 6 parts, and the 6th was scrambled, likely because it had too much David Bowie is my guess. Edgar's comments were on the first hour of that special, but the rest is interesting and sometimes not great ... seeing one of the FAUST folks just hit a cement mixer and calling it music, is nove and silly, but sometimes it stretches the whole thing into oblivion. But the number of folks talking in it, was excellent.

Being "there" is not important ... but the understanding is ... and my comment was more about the way that folks look at a lot of that music, instead of getting into and figuring out why it was so different. The funny thing is that this particular scene also had film, theater, and other arts and it is like no one realizes that the mixes in people's heads are basically the same but the instrument they used was a musical instrument, the other was a pen, the other a camera, the other a stage ... it's the same thing about the other great movements of arts in history ... all of the "major" periods of art included music, paintings, literature ... and so on ... thus, to simply recognize rock music by itself completely isolated from its roots, is removing it from its source.

I do not think of "shallow" when people misinterpret music or the arts ... the visceral reactions are all valid, however, many of these are related to some things that are not artistic ... like religion, and a government or two. I came from a Fascist government and if there was a "shallow" bunch of folks they were it! Same thing in Spain and Italy. To the point that my dad, who had gotten a name as a reviewer of films by Elia Kazan and other major film makers, had a publication with 30 reviews EDITED ... so the review was totally incomprehensible. Someone published these together to give folks an idea, and by the time you look at it, the comments ... just won't stop! 

As to the "death" of classical music, from its glory days that kind of ended in the 60's, when major stars sold out in minutes, to the point much later when even Pavarotti could not sell out the Met! But, in my book, Jethro Tull's cover for "Passion Play" had already predicted that ... with a dead ballerina in the cover! It was time for a new music and this has been the case.

My views on "subjective/objective" will remain private. I do believe that some folks are using "subjective" as an excuse to say something personal that has nothing to do with the art whatsoever ... sort of like ... you go to see Mona Lisa ... and say "stupid" and move on to the next room. Sadly, the history and the time and place, meant absolutely nothing, and the same thing is happening with a lot of those folks ... in my book. Doesn't make them bad people ... but I think they are hurting the music more than they are helping. 

I never find music lacking in "substance" ... what I find is the ILLUSION that lyrics often give us that this music is about this and that ... and if you take the lyrics out, no one will remember the lyrics, and your vision will be totally different than mine! I remember an album, Mahler's 3rd Symphony I think it was ... and it is all instrumental (of course), and the terror I had thinking that some rock music folks ... all they can say is ... just meandering crap that is not needed! ... and it reminds me of the end of the film by Ken Russell ... he wrote something for his wife ... and she still walked out without bothering to listen to it!

Bass guitar ... I had one for years, but never had the time to learn it ... and in the middle of those years my pinky on the left hand lost some nerves and I have switched hands ... the funny think about what I liked to play, was that I was trying to learn something else at the same time ... my teacher actually liked it ... in a bunch of songs, we would play and such, and somehow I always had a different touch of ending, that he always enjoyed hearing ... it was as if I was bored, but I wasn't ... but on different days, times and places, the feeling is different and that ending will be different again!

There are a lot of bass players I like and many I don't seem to worry too much about ... the experimental ones are the most important, since they go all over the place and almost no one else does. My tastes in music changed 55 years ago, when I became more aware of how good rock music and jazz music was ... which at the time were considered just pop music and not valuable ... but in the middle of all that I went almost straight to ECM ... sister had Keith Jarrett for several years, and then I hear Jan Garbarek and followed him (didn't click on that early jazz stuff at all!!!!), and then one day in 1972 I heard Egberto Gismonti ... and a lot of the pop music took a dump ... I only kept YES, ELP (had been with Keith since the start ... he is a classical music composer and one of the best!), The Doors (always ... movie music!!!), and a lot of the SF stuff, though I also had Chicago.

I'm not sure I can think of one I like better than the other, because so much music is so different ... but one of my favorite listens is LOTHAR MEID with Amon Duul 2 (all the way to Vive La Trance), whose touch is unlike so many others ... it's like he is on his own ... you don't think of what he is playing as "rhythm" at all ... and Renate once said that they wanted to have a sound that was more classical music oriented ... and that means that the rock music ideas are out the door, as well as the ones from the Berlin Music School ... music with no western influences! And that meant that the bass being played like we teach it ... as rhythm and must be in tune with the drums ... is not what music is about ... and I think that is a major idea ... although I would definitely step aside to hear an opinion that makes sense of the music a lot better than I did, and can explain the differences ... a "bass" in an orchestra is not there for "rhythm", thus, for my ears, a bass is wasted in a rock band, just like the drummer is, when you can use a metronome to keep track of the time, and all the drummer can do is hit the snare drum every 4 beats and double up on hits on transitions! Wow ... a great musician! No wonder it's a joke in classical music circles!

I do like Chris Squire a lot, although I think that he became a copy of himself after Relayer ... the last great album by that band for me ... but I would have a hard time comparing him to Charlie Haden, and other great well known bass players, even Stanley Clarke .... Jaco Pastorius comes to mind ... some thing it was too much, but he managed to make it seem fine within the work he was doing. Mick Karn. Tony Levin is considered one of the best Stick players, but Don Schiff is much better to my ear and the stuff he did with "The rocket Scientists" a few years back ... and his resume, is scary! You're not gonna get that much work without being good!

That's about it for now ... thx for asking!


I'm loving the crazy direction this thread has gone off on. So many things in here I could pick up on. I think at the top of the list is the idea that a drummer is wasted in a rock band!!?!!??!!? There is so much more to good rock drums than keeping a beat. There is a subtlety to good drumming that is nigh impossible to replicate with a drum machine, that I'm not sure how to even describe, but must be about the accenting of certain beats and the slight differences in timing that can give different moods, urgency, laid-back, feeling of groove, and so on. As a bassist I have played with drum machines and with drummers and there is nothing quite like the "lock" that happens when a bassist and a drummer get to know each other well and play off each other. I'm not opposed to sequenced music, or to drum machines, (although synth bass can somewhat offend me) but there is "feel" that you will get from John Bonham, and from Bill Bruford that... oh well I think you know what I am saying.

So I don't know Don Schiff, but I love Tony Levin as a bassist, especially his dowel finger playing. To my mind, some of his best work is with Peter Gabriel. You mention Mick Karn which took my by surprise. Many years ago I bought two LPs in a record shop, merely because they had similar art on the cover (by Maxwell Parrish). One of which was a Moody Blues album which I was never that bothered by, the other of which was The Waking Hour by Dali's Car, a one-album project involving Mick Karn. It's not my usual kind of music, but I love it, and the bass playing is extraordinary on it.  Another bassist I really like is Herbie Flowers, who as well as being in Sky, did the bass for The War of the Worlds, and some for Variations. Also Bootsy Collins.

I think there is some truth that some music is reliant on the lyrics. This is OK, and for some music, the lyrics are the important focus, but sometimes the lyrics aren't that great. I think it is more of a challenge to make engaging music that is instrumental. I have been a songwriter for years and found it a challenge when I decided to record some instrumental music, but a good challenge. There's a link below if you want to check it out.  I don't know many people who would turn their noses up at music if it didn't have vocals, but I do know people who prefer instrumental music to vocal music. I probably like both equally.

I think I saw the BBC series you are talking about - I saw some such series several years ago, and remember the cement mixer. I don't remember it well though. It probably taught me a lot about the Krautrock scene, and may have been the start of me listening to some, but I would say I have learned more from listening to the music, a bit from Julian Cope's book, and some from my brother. I would not claim to be any kind of expert, but then I hesitate to call myself expert in prog in general on this esteemed forum. There are some very knowledgeable people hanging around here.

I don't think classical music has died, and I think there is (certainly in the UK) more interest in it than there was in my youth, but more in older work than the contemporary/experimental sorts that started last century. The most significant area of new classical music that is still traditionally orchestrated, and is less experimental in terms of harmony (in particular) than the experimental stuff, is film scores, and some of the most well-known "classical" music of the last 40 years is orchestral music by John Williams and others, written for film scores.

Where are we going next? Who can say? The world is your lobster.
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http://www.purplemusic.org

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 08:58
Hi,

Kinda strange ... I don't look at music and think ... that's not my cup of tea ... there are good players in all kinds of music, however, the market these days is ruling too much music, and too much of it has to be "matched" up to what we know, and the desire to just go forward, and not have to do the same as everyone else is lost ... because you have to play with me, or I have to play with you ... which we don't ... but we could agree to catch up with each other at certain points.

BB mentions in his book a bunch of gigs that were all improvised from beginning to the end, and he didn't know what he was going to play or vice versa, and he says that some of those were some of the best things he ever did, and my guess is that he is talking about having to color the music just as much as the other player, not necessarily "playing the drums" ... and there are a few drummers that I like listening to ... for example, Steve Gadd, in how he made Rickie Lee Jones sound better, and then to see him years later playing with Kate Bush and coloring music that had no "beat", so to speak ... it just flowed non-stop ... and that is something that scares 9 out of 10 musicians. You don't know where it is going, but concentrate on the feeling ... and it will happen and work!

Lyrics ... the first thing you learn in theater, about acting and directing (I majored in Directing in Film and Theater), is that what you want, what you do, and what the audience gets is three different things from three different universes, not to mention that the drunk Friday Night audience is rowdy (Heheheh!) and the Saturday Night audience is all the intellectuals and they don't laugh, cry or move until the end, when they applaud. And you're gonna tell me that the lyrics of a song are going to be understood ... Shakespeare has been at it for 500 years ... and folks still don't know what the fudge he is saying, and argue about its content, if you do the iambic crapper as opposed to the modern jargon crapper. The fights between Theater folks, and English Department folks at the Universities the world over is the worst because of this ... and someone telling me that Stairway to Bullsh*t is going to arrive at its climax and everyone is pleased ... that's an ideal ... not a reality, but you might be enchanted by the fact that you were there and you saw Robert try to do that song again! That has nothing to do with the lyrics ... and this is one area where folks get confused!

To this day, a lot of folks hate REVOLUTION #9 ... and I keep telling them ... for crying out loud, get a recorder and walk down the street for 15 minutes and then edit and clean it up to 10 minutes, and you got REVOLUTION #10 ... and it has more meaning than lyrics ... why? IT'S REAL ... although it could be said that your trimming to down a wee bit of the realism. I think that the Beatles learned from George Martin that lyrics were like jokes ... one day good, the other day bad ... and GM had done the majority of SOUND EFFECTS for the Goons and even did comedy albums for Sellers and Milligan. But folks are taking "lyrics" seriously, and think that they "represent the music" and that is one of the greatest lies and concepts ever invented.

I like to say ... one has to get over oneself for his/her words ... I like to say that words matter, mostly because I come from a house of literature, and song lyrics for the most part do not amount to one page of a good book, and I would not trade them, either! So, it sort of becomes like saying ... oh well, they haven't read good books ... to know better or the difference. Or heard poets read their work ... it's not the same ... and I don't like (sorry) the idea that we think that these lyrics are so valuable to our lives ... they aren't! And neither are all poets ... but some are better than others, specially when you hear them.

Classical Music has died in America, and is going to die further, since the market is all about the "hit" and the "sales" and it is hurting ... but it is good ... I think in the end, the classical music folks will have to re-evaluate their problems and finally come to grips that several unions though doing the right thing, hurt the concerts and the process of creating music to the point of making it impossible and the only thing they do is the stuff they already know. I think that rock music is going to end up in a similar hole sooner or later ... everything is the same. It is, likely, different in Europe that has a lot more respect for the history of the arts, but in America it is as if ... let's kill the past ... past music is crap. 

And yes, some soundtrack musicians are for me the best in "classical music" in the past many years ... I still listen to Ryuichi Sakamoto, Vangelis, and the sdtks by Tangerine Dream ... and love them all ... and how they were used and once in a while you get a director that knows how to color music and I find that enchanting, though (again) you have to remember that without that visual, your memory would see something else ... and thus, that is not the "ultimate" definition of that music! The most recent soundtrack I have really enjoyed is KIN, done by the band Mogwai. I do 'foreign film' reviews and the one thing that always stands up is music for me ... and how the director used it ... and you know right away the commercial directors from the "artistes" ... 

Btw ... all of this was written while listening to "BODY:MIND:SPIRIT" and what a massively great and enjoyable listen that was.

Have a wonderful day!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 09:19
hmmm... not on one beer.. I'll wait for till #4 to try that one..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2020 at 01:13
Huge job, really ClapClap


Didn't read my colleagues' posts, but IMHO, missing in the genre is prog folk (Gryphon, Tull, Harmonium, and big bits of Gentle Giant... let alone all of the acts in PA's datrabase.

a few (gentle) remarks in the first third of the book:Wink
I'd have included Renaissance's debut  as one of their main album (after all Haslam & Dunford owe everything to it).
Maybe Supertramp's Brother rather than BIA as well.
Little Krautrock in your band list as well (outside AD2 and Grobschnitt). I didn't see Can or Neu! (you cite Terry Riley, though as minimalism)
Surely Hogarth's Marillion deserves at least one albm in their section.
Not sure I'd include G&C witthout associating 10 CC in the same space.
Nice to see Zrank Fappa filed under FTongue Ditto for Rerry Tiley LOL
For SM, I'd maybe include Bundles rather than Fifth. It's more "à propos"
I'd really avoid Miles and the KOB controversy that PA has introduced here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DocDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2020 at 12:44
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Huge job, really ClapClap


Didn't read my colleagues' posts, but IMHO, missing in the genre is prog folk (Gryphon, Tull, Harmonium, and big bits of Gentle Giant... let alone all of the acts in PA's datrabase.

a few (gentle) remarks in the first third of the book:Wink
I'd have included Renaissance's debut  as one of their main album (after all Haslam & Dunford owe everything to it).
Maybe Supertramp's Brother rather than BIA as well.
Little Krautrock in your band list as well (outside AD2 and Grobschnitt). I didn't see Can or Neu! (you cite Terry Riley, though as minimalism)
Surely Hogarth's Marillion deserves at least one albm in their section.
Not sure I'd include G&C witthout associating 10 CC in the same space.
Nice to see Zrank Fappa filed under FTongue Ditto for Rerry Tiley LOL
For SM, I'd maybe include Bundles rather than Fifth. It's more "à propos"
I'd really avoid Miles and the KOB controversy that PA has introduced here.


Thanks :) and thanks for the comments.

There are always going to be things that people think should have been in, and your suggestions make sense, I think. The main list of albums was derived from combining several lists from several sources, and I basically let that be. In that sense that was not decided by me. The "extra" albums were decided by me, to fill things out a bit (but I had to draw a line, and I did actually try to not just put in my favourite albums, honestly!)  The Acts (mostly band) list was also mostly out of my control, in that I decided that any act with two or more albums would get an act page, those with only one could have the act information in with the review. So I guess I had some influence there by what albums I chose for the extra albums. Complicated and convoluted? You bet.

Good point on Prog Folk, maybe it should have had a page. I'll think about that for if there is ever a second edition.

I love Brother where you Bound and I nearly included it in the extra albums. I felt like it was too self-indulgent given how many Supertramp albums were already in. It's a shame, though as it is probably their most "Prog" album.

Krautrock - I hear you on Can and Neu! The list, as I said, was dictated by external forces. For the extras I bowed to my brother to suggest a smattering of krautrock to include.

Hogarth's Marillion - you could be right, in the extra albums. To my shame I am not very familiar with them. (You can shoot me now if you want).

G&C - so I did wonder about adding some 10CC also, another band I love by the way. Consequences and Freeze Frame made it in the extras because they are so unusual. 

Zrank Fappa and Rerry Tiley - aw man! Alphabetisation seems like it would be so simple, and yet.... So years ago I made a decision that I would alphabetise by firstname in my own music collection, for a combination of reasons, but mostly because I needed a consistent approach, and got sick of putting in commas (like Gilmour, David) and had had the occasional mistake like Springfield, Buffalo. You caught me!

SM: I did what was in the list. I did not feel it needed adding to, so Bundles didn't get in. TBH I expected to like Soft Machine more than I did. 

Miles - I presume you are talking about Miles Davis. What is this KOB controversy of which you speak?  This sounds like a can of worms. Oh, must be Kind of Blue. What controversy? IMHO, brilliant album, but definitely not prog. Have I just taken an inadvertent side in a vendetta? I'm a bit of a stranger in these parts (PA forums).

Thanks for your comments :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DocDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2020 at 13:56
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
BB mentions in his book a bunch of gigs that were all improvised from beginning to the end, and he didn't know what he was going to play or vice versa, and he says that some of those were some of the best things he ever did, and my guess is that he is talking about having to color the music just as much as the other player, not necessarily "playing the drums" ... and there are a few drummers that I like listening to ... for example, Steve Gadd, in how he made Rickie Lee Jones sound better, and then to see him years later playing with Kate Bush and coloring music that had no "beat", so to speak ... it just flowed non-stop ... and that is something that scares 9 out of 10 musicians. You don't know where it is going, but concentrate on the feeling ... and it will happen and work!

Yeah, I really like that side of things, and when it comes to prog, although I love the Third Wave, I wish there was more space in the crafted stuff for some genuine improvisation. One of the albums in the book is THRaKaTTaK which is effectively a compilation of live improvisations and it is amazing, but a difficult listen all the same. I think improv, especially "experimental" improv is hard to do well, or at least I think so because I'm not really sure what "well" means. There are some of the Miles Davis electric period albums that are very improv, but I find boring. I've been to Jazz gigs and played in Jazz band for a while so I appreciate that in-the-moment flow thing, but not sure sometimes how much an audience can enjoy it. I think it's a brave thing to turn up on stage with no plan, and maybe it's a brave thing to go to a gig where you know that is going to happen. 

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Shakespeare has been at it for 500 years ... 

I'm pretty sure he died at some point. 

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

and folks still don't know what the fudge he is saying, and argue about its content, 

I listened to rap album the other day (I felt like an adventure) and felt very much the same. I can follow Willy Wobbledagger better to be honest.  Mind you some parts of your posts make me scratch my head just as much. 

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

To this day, a lot of folks hate REVOLUTION #9 ... 

I just played part of it to my 10-yr-old son. He wasn't impressed. He didn't like the repeated "No, 9" - it irritated him. If you like that sort of thing you might like Trash Vortex: http://www.mediafire.com/?zm1txew9vf9k3


Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I like to say ... one has to get over oneself for his/her words ... I like to say that words matter, mostly because I come from a house of literature, and song lyrics for the most part do not amount to one page of a good book, and I would not trade them, either! So, it sort of becomes like saying ... oh well, they haven't read good books ... to know better or the difference. Or heard poets read their work ... it's not the same ... and I don't like (sorry) the idea that we think that these lyrics are so valuable to our lives ... they aren't! And neither are all poets ... but some are better than others, specially when you hear them.

There have always been good lyrics, and pap lyrics, and occasionally good lyrics masquerading as pap lyrics.  There is an art to a well-turned phrase and I think lots of people think they can do it when they can't. However, I think there's also something to be said about the delivery. I blame the X factor and shows like that for aggrandising vocal technique over actual expression of meaning. I think the epitome of this is Alexandra Burke's version of "Hallelujah" which is a travesty. I think this is why I favour acts that write their own songs, because it's too easy to mechanically parrot out somebody else's song with all of the notes and none of the soul.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Btw ... all of this was written while listening to "BODY:MIND:SPIRIT" and what a massively great and enjoyable listen that was.

Wow, thanks! :)

Take care.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2020 at 07:42
Originally posted by DocDan DocDan wrote:

...
I just played part of it to my 10-yr-old son. He wasn't impressed. He didn't like the repeated "No, 9" - it irritated him. If you like that sort of thing you might like Trash Vortex: http://www.mediafire.com/?zm1txew9vf9k3
...

Tell him, for fun, that his steps and walking are just as repetitive, and we don't have to mention his heartbeat! 

(Gotta have fun with those comments ... )

Originally posted by DocDan DocDan wrote:

...
There have always been good lyrics, and pap lyrics, and occasionally good lyrics masquerading as pap lyrics.
...

No question on that, and someone like Jim Morrison, or Peter Hammill are great examples ... but their "edge" is of a more poetic sentiment and the music adjusts to it, than the music dictating the singing and the lyrics as is the case with most rock/pop music ... and now the singer shuts up for the SOLO by the guitar! Which ought to tell you how important the lyrics are when you "change" the focus! 

There are folks that have a knack for good set of words, and I won't even question someone like Mick Jagger who is one of those folks that can not only come up with the lyrics, he also finds a way to say them right ... and this is important ... but it is not present in all of his work!

But vocal "techniques" are an interesting acting phenomena ... and one wonders how Joe Cocker, and Roger Chapman, made it ... but their vocal feeling and quality is so clean and well done, that it is hard to ignore. 

...

I'm not sure it matters if it is written by the same person or not ... some folks are excellent "actors" and know how to use their voice really well, as opposed to the opera styled singer whose most important value is hitting the right notes, and emotion is secondary because there is not enough time to do it, and it will throw the orchestra off the pace and the conductor's baton! Another detail that has hurt a lot of the operatic (sung) materials in classical music ... both rock and jazz have far more emotional (sensitive) materials than any opera out there.

That means that any younger audience is not going to spend money on the classical music in their lifetime more than likely and at 65 (I'm 69), they will still go see King Crimson and other bands, but you won't get me to see the Portland Symphony even for a free concert! (Conductor turned me down when suggesting doing some Frank Zappa ... and instead brought in Pink Martini yet again ... and they are still complaining of their lack of funds ... and no interest in getting a new audience!

One of the things to remember in acting ... VERY IMPORTANT ... and the same goes for singing ... is that one word, or one small sentence can be said/sung in a bunch of different ways, and all of them will imply something else.

I might sound a bit strange here, but I tend to like the poet reading/singing his own words ... somehow they shine. I remember reading Allen Ginsburg and it did nothing for me ... it was too plain, or maybe just "pedestrian" (not in a bad way!) ... and then you hear him reading his own words in the film TONITE WE ALL LOVE IN LONDON, and the material explodes and is quite vivid and strong and meaningful for the total design experience of the film, although the bands in it, did not really want anything to do with the political side of things ... they liked the idea of playing in that environment, not to mention that some of these writers lived in a house with many actors and other musicians and writers ... Burroughs being one of them, and Daevid Allen had many stories to tell about that!

It's not a coincidence, and many of these folks learned a few things about their art ... they probably shared their ideas to justify what they were trying to do, is also my guess. And then Daevid and Gilly became the best "beat poets" ever in rock music ... second to none!


Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2020 at 07:55
Originally posted by DocDan DocDan wrote:


I love Brother where you Bound and I nearly included it in the extra albums. I felt like it was too self-indulgent given how many Supertramp albums were already in. It's a shame, though as it is probably their most "Prog" album.  >> and yet, their debut (man-flower sleeve) is even proggier

Miles - I presume you are talking about Miles Davis. What is this KOB controversy of which you speak?  This sounds like a can of worms. Oh, must be Kind of Blue. What controversy? IMHO, brilliant album, but definitely not prog. Have I just taken an inadvertent side in a vendetta? I'm a bit of a stranger in these parts (PA forums).

Thanks for your comments :) 


on the PA forums , some irritating members Angry Ouch keep bringing the KOB issue back to the frontSleepy... hence the can of worms. WinkLOL

Weird thing, though is how I don't get that on a prog rock forum Bitches Brew is not ranked above KOB, especially so that BB is the main reason for Miles' presence on this site.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DocDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2020 at 13:44
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:


on the PA forums , some irritating members Angry Ouch keep bringing the KOB issue back to the frontSleepy... hence the can of worms. WinkLOL

Weird thing, though is how I don't get that on a prog rock forum Bitches Brew is not ranked above KOB, especially so that BB is the main reason for Miles' presence on this site.



I would definitely say that KOB is a better album than BB, but surprised the KOB is here as it is very hard to argue that it is prog.  I guess there is a question about the reviews here, whether they are rating how good it is as an album, or how prog it is.  I wouldn't really say BB is prog either, I think you only really get proggy when you get Return to Forever and Mahavishnu Orchestra.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DocDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2020 at 14:06
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


But vocal "techniques" are an interesting acting phenomena ... and one wonders how Joe Cocker, and Roger Chapman, made it ... but their vocal feeling and quality is so clean and well done, that it is hard to ignore. 


I think its a sad thing that people with voices like Peter Hammill and Mark Knopfler, and to be honest Bob Dylan, would struggle to get a recording contract these days. I still can't put my finger on why Mark Knopfler's voice works, when he wanders around the note, mumbling in half-spoken, half-sung ways, but somehow it just does work.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2020 at 07:40
Originally posted by DocDan DocDan wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


But vocal "techniques" are an interesting acting phenomena ... and one wonders how Joe Cocker, and Roger Chapman, made it ... but their vocal feeling and quality is so clean and well done, that it is hard to ignore. 


I think its a sad thing that people with voices like Peter Hammill and Mark Knopfler, and to be honest Bob Dylan, would struggle to get a recording contract these days. I still can't put my finger on why Mark Knopfler's voice works, when he wanders around the note, mumbling in half-spoken, half-sung ways, but somehow it just does work.  

Hi,

And that's when you know that someone is "serious" about their work, and not just another pop song. Bob Dylan, for all intents and purposes, would probably use that auto tune thing these days to get attention, but his style/method is road-proven and he's fine with that ... but remember, that he started with his WORDS ... even though the music was very good as well. Go back to BLONDE ON BLONDE and listen to the whole album, and the whole thing is an acting masterpiece. He knows what he is saying and how ... and he changes it every night in concert which was one of the reasons for the incredible number of bootlegs of his shows way back when ... between him, Led Zep, and later PF, they just about "ruled" the bootleg world!

Acting words is tough ... Peter Hammill is an example that he doesn't write songs ... he rips up portions of his SKIN to come up with a song, so he can deliver it right ... goes back to his really early days and being able to scream and get really tough in singing his personal material in the earlier solo days ... SILENT CORNER EMPTY STAGE ... being evident. he would have a terrible time with this today, but a lot of folks would fall for it quickly because it is so strong.

Oddball moments ... Sir John Gielgud in PROSPERO'S BOOKS ... Willy's The Tempest is a very difficult read ... you have no idea what is being said and things change so quickly you lose track of the story and where it goes ... and then you see Greenaway's film ... and the only thing you gotta do is CLOSE YOUR EYES and listen to Sir John Gielgud ... never have words felt so pure and so clean ... and this is rare, and not found in a lot of popular music, because people that are this good, will not waste their time with bubble gum quality of words about the great big book, or some cartoon version of yet another this or that. The importance of the modern this or that and technology ... a lot of material that has been driven into the ground so badly. Or is you want some surrealism ... listen to Sir Ian McKellen deliver his last lines in the film RICHARD III ... and it will bust your brain globules to pieces when it comes to ideas ... 

Words can be magic, within any context ... but you will never get me to bite on Harry Potter or Steven King! There is way far better literature out there, with much better words, than those, or any SONG in the history of rock music, progressive or punk! In fact, watching PENELOPE SPHEERIS three films there were many bands in her films whose words were far more valuable and important ... but we think it is some sort of "revolution" that is going to corrupt your kids ... !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Droxford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2020 at 13:15
Thank you very much DocDan for making the 'Prog Gnostic' book available  . Very generous offer. 

Started reading the book, and enjoying it. Particularly pleased to see that you have included the Mahavishnu Orchestra and Miles Davis. Impressed by your knowledge of bands, and like the humour as well. 



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