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I don't like Neo Prog, change my mind |
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wiz_d_kidd 
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Joined: January 13 2018 Location: EllicottCityMD Status: Offline Points: 1462 |
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 Posted: April 05 2020 at 07:42 |
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The Psychedelic Ensemble is not neo-prog -- despite his mis-classification on this site. He is clearly symphonic, more so than most other bands classified as symphonic.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18974 |
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Posted: April 05 2020 at 07:53 |
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There's a few bands on here who I strongly feel are in the wrong category. One that comes to mind off the top of my head is Echolyn. They are here under symphonic but other than their first two albums that doesn't really apply to them much at all. A better category would be ecelectic or even crossover.
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Posted: April 05 2020 at 08:51 |
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I guess the key there is "first two albums" I don't know how easy it is for or even a priority with all the new music going on out there for admins to move an artist after they have been put into a category. Not a criticism but sometimes we all neglect housekeeping heheheheh. But this is why I try not to get too hung up on the categories. For some artists it is easier than other. And after all, wouldn't be boring if all the artists just behaved and stuck to making music that fit their category?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Shadowyzard
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Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
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Posted: April 05 2020 at 08:57 |
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Here are two standout and obscure songs, the latter is from your country. IDK if they'll change your mind, but they are from two of my favourite albums labelled as neo prog. |
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Catcher10
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VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17973 |
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Posted: April 05 2020 at 09:47 |
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That's what Logan and I were discussing earlier here. Looking at tracks in some cases rather than whole albums and lumping them into a category. I've said pretty much all new music that we call prog can be labeled Crossover/Crossover Prog, I also like the label Eclectic. But one thing I dislike a lot is allowing the label/tag to dictate the music, again what I mentioned earlier to the OP, forget about Neo-prog and just listen to the bands. I think we get lost, we think Echolyn and IQ are trying to create neo-prog music.
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irrelevant
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 07 2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 13382 |
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Posted: April 05 2020 at 10:35 |
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Ok so this thread has inspired me to give Neo another go. Nothing really grabbed me in the past in this sub-genre but seeing as nowadays I can handle and even enjoy 80's production now's the time!
I tried out IQ - The Wake for a few minutes on YouTube just before but the sound quality was woeful so I'm currently listening to IQ - Ever. It's not bad. The vocals are sometimes edging to that power metal ballpark that I don't like, but at least it's well-sung. Musically not upsetting at all. Few nice hooks here and there...
Edited by irrelevant - April 05 2020 at 10:36 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group 
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 37372 |
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Posted: April 05 2020 at 11:04 |
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It's a good point. Sometimes we box ourselves in too much with genre expectations. And while informative labeling can help to discover music, it's also important just to take music as it comes, and try to appreciate it for what it is, not what you want it to be or what you expect it to be. Anyway, "allowing the label/tag to dictate the music" is not what I'd call a progressive mindset.
Speaking of hooks: And no, I'm not recommending this as Neo-Prog (or calling it Neo-Prog) or recommending it at all. That's an AOR/ arena rock type song that reminds me of Kenny Loggins' "Danger Zone" and other such music. Many bands take different musical approaches over time and on the same album. |
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Prog-jester
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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Posted: April 05 2020 at 16:07 |
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 Give me some 80s* cheese!* - I guess I'm in minority here but I prefer to see Neo-Prog as purely 80s/80s-influenced thing only. You got the OGs like Marillion, IQ, Pendragon etc, and then you got really cool imitators from 90s, 00s and even 10s like Collage, Red Sand and Anubis (bit of a stretch with this one): poppy melodies, cheesy synths, song-oriented structures, etc-etc-etc. And again, I'm loving it! Hence I don't get why some people call The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree or The Mars Volta Neo-Prog, only because they're Newer Prog? These bands are million miles away in basically every aspect from my marillions and iluvatars, don't you dare mix them together! Also it's funny how most 80s music trends have been revived time and time again, from Post-Punk to No Wave, from Synth Pop to Neofolk, yet somehow Neo-Prog is so obscure and impenetrable (is it???) that literally no one even tried to create a quality-level big time ripoff of Fish-era Marillion, apart from maybe few bedroom projects
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Awesoreno
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Joined: October 07 2019 Location: Culver City, CA Status: Offline Points: 3080 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 01:32 |
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This is exactly what I was saying. The definition and the bands under that banner are inconsistent. I mentioned before that Wikipedia's definition of neo includes many bands that are labeled as symph, crossover, and even eclectic (and don't get me started on the inconsistencies of the latter two, both have become grab-bag terms). I agree with many of you that we shouldn't get too hung up on labels when it comes to enjoyment. But the SITE should be hung up on labels because one of the goals here is to categorize. This helps people find bands that could potentially meet their interests. Sure, maybe some people scoff at a band and won't listen because it's under a certain label, and that's a shame, but it's their close-minded choice.
So what to do? Well, we could alter some of the definitions, but that could get really dicey. Take Neo-Prog. I think the definition here is actually very good. It's more exclusionary than Wiki, and that's actually good because it helps you differentiate between bands (and it's not like those bands like Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Echolyn, etc. don't belong to their own categories). I think it would be a better idea to give bands multiple sub-genre labels where applicable. Someone mentioned Echolyn earlier, and how their first two albums could be labeled symph, but the rest eclectic or crossover. And Marillion, the subject of several earlier comments. Were they Neo-Prog at some point? Hell yes! Later on? Crossover for sure. This would help for so many bands, including the founding fathers. Early Tull? Prog Folk. Middle Tull? Prog Folk/Symph. Later Tull? Crossover/Prog Related/Folk. It would certainly make the highest rated album sections a lot less confusing. Brave deserves a spot on some sub-genre's highest rated list, but not Neo (in my opinion, not hating on it, I enjoy Brave, and am neither a Neo hater nor a Neo gate keeper).
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Awesoreno
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Joined: October 07 2019 Location: Culver City, CA Status: Offline Points: 3080 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 01:42 |
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While I think the Neo definition doesn't need to change, I actually think some of the sub-genres here also need to either be split up, or have some sub-sub-categories. Take Heavy Prog. May Blitz, and Haken??? The earlier bands (Deep Purple-esque) should be separated from the post-Rush kind of bands. Plus, Haken's newest albums are straight Prog Metal. Another band that could use the treatment I posted on just above.
I don't mean to seem exclusionary. I am in no way saying "_____ doesn't belong in ______ because [reason that is more based on not liking the band despite liking other bands of the sub-genre]." I just think this can clear up confusion. Probably because I'm just pedantic. I realize this kind of stuff isn't easy to just implement on the spot, too.
Edited by Awesoreno - April 06 2020 at 01:43 |
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Cristi
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Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45749 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 01:52 |
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If you ask me, Haken is a progressive metal band, always been. . |
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irrelevant
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 07 2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 13382 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 05:16 |
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Hah! Marillion went full-on AOR huh. Not bad, but I can get down with some of that stuff. The Outfield are one of my favourite bands these days after all... Which brings me to an album I re-visited last night: It Bites - The Big Lad in the Windmill I liked a couple of tracks off this years back when I checked it out. Second, maybe third full listen all that time later and I had a lot of fun! Even went and bought it on Discogs for about $20. Thing is though there isn't a whole lot of prog in it (there are bits and songs here and there) but it's got plenty of that AOR sound. Some of this is laugh-out-loud funny too, a few parts are so ridiculous it had me cackling; they couldn't have been taking this completely seriously and I think that's a plus. Really fun poppy rock record with enough quirky parts to distinguish it. So Neo-heads, feel free to recommend me some poppy 80's Neo-Prog!
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Prog-jester
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 08:07 |
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definitely these guys are must: They're from 90s but sound completely 80s. They're definitely my favourite thing Clive Nolan ever done, never heard anyone else loving them as much though but I understandAlso don't miss Twelfth Night and Pallas, early genre creators along with Marillion and IQ: |
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dougmcauliffe
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Joined: February 23 2019 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 08:16 |
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I also think Deep Purple belongs under Heavy Prog tbh. And Blackstar by David Bowie is a modern prog masterpiece but doesn't get to be compared to the other prog albums which is kinda unfortunate. I mean if Peter Gabriel is Crossover prog I see no reason why Bowie cant be.
Edited by dougmcauliffe - April 06 2020 at 08:20 |
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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes |
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essexboyinwales
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Joined: April 27 2015 Location: Bridgend Status: Offline Points: 5226 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 09:14 |
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Well if you haven't heard Once Around The World by It Bites, that's where you should go next...
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irrelevant
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 09:39 |
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^ I did (at least some of it), years ago when I heard the first one. I suppose I should go there next.
Edited by irrelevant - April 06 2020 at 09:40 |
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Catcher10
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VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17973 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 10:34 |
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Bowie is listed as Prog Related, IMO seems accurate for his catalog in total, but when you read both definitions I think he could fit in Crossover too. What I always had issue with was some of the descriptions in Prog Related. For example Zeppelin and Iron Maiden.....Prog Related discusses what a band was doing early on and how that was not considered prog but may have been, just the prog label did not exist in the 70's. I think the rock world would agree that Zeppelin was a blues band that played with distortion and heavy drums, not till Graffiti and House/Holy did the lyrics become psychy, but not prog. Iron Maiden in the early days was straight up metal, nothing more nothing less and not prog.....but both are listed as Prog-Related. To me Marillion early days with Fish was as Neo-prog as it gets, with a lot of pop elements in songs like Kayleigh, Freaks and Lady Nina.....Post Fish 90% of the output has been Crossover or Prog Related.
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29560 |
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Posted: April 07 2020 at 13:40 |
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The Wake was very 'DIY' and does sound like it was recorded in an attic (ironic given the title of their previous album) . They set up their own studio in the 90's and label (GEP) signing some well known bands such as Threshold and even Spock's Beard! Ever is a much more professional and polished recording compared to anything they did previously although on that side of things I would reckon that The Seventh House is even better so I would go there next or maybe Dark Matter.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
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Posted: April 07 2020 at 14:12 |
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A friend of mine just invited me to a Marillion quiz night!! I was like WTF? He claims he thought I liked them. Clearly he hasn't been checking my posts on FB.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Logan
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Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 37372 |
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Posted: April 07 2020 at 14:33 |
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I'd say "Fine", and then add, "I assume that I can expect your presence at my Univers Zero quiz night." I'm assuming this is an online quiz night, and not a physical get-together as Let's not get physical, physical Don't want to get physical... I'd go to an Olivia Newton John quiz night, but not get physical. |
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wiz_d_kidd wrote: