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Ok. Which is superior ?

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Poll Question: Take your pick..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 07:35
As good as Dark Side is, Foxtrot is s still my preferred album. The
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 09:03

DSOTM is border line very good /excellent.  Foxtrot is border line excellent / phenomenal.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 12:23
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Anyway. I was thinking about the genre conumdrum. Clearly, as I have said I can and do apply genre at TRACK level. Thus, you can allow for a time period analysis of a band, who change genre OVER time. I know that true objective parameters for each genre have not been clearly identified but if you compare DSOTM track by track, only ACYL is actually anywhere near a prog track...and my subjective analysis is as valid as anybody else's. It aint nothing but a brilliantly recorded art rock/AOR release which stands out IN 1973 BECAUSE IT WASN'T PROG ROCK...I will argue this till I die at the age of 134....listening to Foxtrot...

Humorously enough, the tribute to the album Return to the Dark Side of the Moon features a veritable cornucopia of prog musicians:

Rick Wakeman (Yes)
Steve Howe (Yes)
Peter Banks (Yes)
Bill Bruford (Yes, King Crimson)
John Wetton (King Crimson)
Adrian Belew (King Crimson)
Tony Levin (King Crimson)
Allen White (Yes)
Geoff Downes (Yes)
Aynsley Dunbar (Frank Zappa & The Mothers)
Tony Kaye (Yes)
Billy Sherwood (Yes)
Dweezil Zappa (Zappa on Zappa)
Gary Green (Gentle Giant)
Scott Page (Pink Floyd, Supertramp)
Colin Moulding (XTC)
Larry Fast (Nektar)

Throw in jazz, rock and blues performers like...
Edgar Winter (White Trash, EWG)
David Sancious (Stanley Clarke, Peter Gabriel)
Tony Franklin (Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Roy Harper, David Gilmour)
Jimmy Haslip (Yellowjackets, Allan Holdsworth)
Vinnie Colaiuta (Joni Mitchell, Frank Zappa)
Robben Ford (Miles Davis, Yellowjackets, L.A. Express)
Jeff Baxter (Steely Dan)
Robbie Krieger (The Doors)

One has to wonder if these extraordinary musicians appreciate the album and its progressive influence a sight more than you do. LOL








Edited by The Dark Elf - April 04 2020 at 12:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 15:14
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This poll has again....informed me of...
Some people place production above musical merit...
DSOTM was overated in 1973 and still is 47 years later...
The zeitgeist has constantly changed but the elephant is still in the prog room....

I have chosen DSOTM but I subscrive your opinion, it is exactly the thesis I have supported elsewhere: the overestimation of DTSOM because of its great production, its sound effects, its captivating tricks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 17:14
If an album has a great production and sound effects that perfectly fit into the general scope of the album and underline its message in a perfect way, that doesn't mean that the album is only appreciated so highly because of production and sound effects.
Foxtrot is an excellent album of progressive rock and I now think it may be my favourite out of Genesis' studio albums. However I voted for DSOTM, not because of production and sound effects because apart from the supreme songwriting there is something really deep about this album, touching the basis of the human condition, if you want. There are some reaction videos around demonstrating what it does to people.

Now I love Watcher of the Skies to pieces but it will not trigger this kind of feelings. Obviously this has nothing to do with how proggy it is, that's a side issue of little musical and emotional interest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 17:21
Did the Squirrels ever do this with Foxtrot? I think not.



Edited by Logan - April 04 2020 at 17:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 19:35
Pink Floyd used part of the proceeds from Dark Side of the Moon to fund the production of Monty Python and the Holy Grail

If that isn't progressive, I don't know what is. In any case, this is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 22:50
Who really cares what´s progressive and what´s not? At least I don´t. Great albums are great albums, whatever genre they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 23:29
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Who really cares what´s progressive and what´s not? At least I don´t. Great albums are great albums, whatever genre they are.

Same, but unfortunately 'not prog' is all Barney has to go on hammering DSOTM.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 01:26
In general it comes into the category of albums that are really important but I don't care to listen to that much. It did achieve a wider audience because of the perception that it actually meant something and was a commentary on the human race and the way modern life makes us slightly insane. I totally agree with that but it still doesn't make it any more interesting as a piece of music. I never got the hype over the production at all. It's way too 'clean' for me. I was never a vinyl junkie or headphone listener though. As I said in my earlier post it works well as a singular piece in a 'live event' especially when you have the right video backdrops.
Nowadays using the PA classification I consider it to be Crossover. I think calling it 'AOR' is incorrect but I respect Barney for stoking up a debate. About a million years ago ( well maybe 15) I even started a thread 'Is Dark Side Of The Moon overrated?' A lot of people then did think so and that probably hasn't changed. It was a very clever deception in some respects. At the time of its release it got the masses on board thinking they were getting into the 'hard stuff' when it was really just the tame soft gateway variety!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 02:58
^ haha...anyway..yesterday was indoors date night and her indoors was cooking lamb shank...whilst she was upstairs preparing her wardrobe (stepping one beyond your show)...I asked Aleksa to play DSOTM (my aleksa is paired to my v. Expensive wireless soundbar n surround sound oojimy-whatsit...I drank hobgoblin and took in the music...I had forgotten the tangerine dream bit...bit still enjoyed the VCS in any colour...but that horrible female singer got on my tits and I dont like saxophone...the last track would be epic with a monster guitar solo instead of that horrible female backing singer...2 stars...😎 and genre....curates egg...prog in parts perhaps...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 03:02
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In general it comes into the category of albums that are really important but I don't care to listen to that much. It did achieve a wider audience because of the perception that it actually meant something and was a commentary on the human race and the way modern life makes us slightly insane. I totally agree with that but it still doesn't make it any more interesting as a piece of music. I never got the hype over the production at all. It's way too 'clean' for me. I was never a vinyl junkie or headphone listener though. As I said in my earlier post it works well as a singular piece in a 'live event' especially when you have the right video backdrops.
Nowadays using the PA classification I consider it to be Crossover. I think calling it 'AOR' is incorrect but I respect Barney for stoking up a debate. About a million years ago ( well maybe 15) I even started a thread 'Is Dark Side Of The Moon overrated?' A lot of people then did think so and that probably hasn't changed. It was a very clever deception in some respects. At the time of its release it got the masses on board thinking they were getting into the 'hard stuff' when it was really just the tame soft gateway variety!




Believe it or not, I agree completely that DSOTM is just gateway prog at the most.  That is exactly why it hooks in a lot of people and I don't even think it's a deception unless Bob Dylan writing simple songs with profound lyrics is also considered a deception.  But all that aside, the issue here for me is I don't even consider Genesis far above the gateway prog territory.  If we were talking about some of the more demanding Canterbury stuff like National Health, VDGG, King Crimson, Gentle Giant or Magma (not even getting into Avant/RIO), I could understand.  But Genesis itself is extremely accessible.  In many ways, Genesis (in its prog phase) stands in a similar place in terms of its appeal to those who mainly like symphonic/melodic/accessible prog as DSOTM does w.r.t rock listeners who want some sophistication without going full tilt prog.  Genesis is nice and easy to get into.  Its Britishisms may be a tad quirky at times but that's about the only difficulty you would encounter.  

This is not to say that a lot of Genesis' work in their prog phase isn't brilliant.  It is.  But this is a good opportunity to refute the notion that because something is easy to listen to and not too complex means it cannot be brilliant.  Maybe what Floyd did on Dark Side offered a convenient model for bands like BOC to appear sophisticated by adding some melody and/or piano sections to their songs (Astronomy/Flaming Telepaths); Styx would do the same as well. But at that time, 1973, they offered something very different from the other big rock bands.  Not heavy and fast like Sabbath or Purple, not rambling like Led Zeppelin.  Not over the top like Queen.  The closest parallel is what The Who were doing at around the same time.  But Gilmour's gentle vocals added a dimension that The Who did not have.  And while Gilmour is not as effective in hard rocking vocals as Daltrey, he is pretty good himself going by the evidence of Money (or Young Lust later on The Wall). That range, to be adequately hard rocking and also very melodic and even plaintive, brought a different set of emotions to the table, complemented in turn by Waters' lyrics.  It is not so much a deception as it is an album that is greater than the sum of its parts.  Floyd in that DSOTM-Wall phase were better than any other rock/prog band at putting together an album.  Everything on their albums had a reason to exist.  No placating or pandering big egos ( a la the second half of Fragile), no throwaways, every song dovetailed into a larger concept (until Waters went for a full fledged concept album with Wall). 

The irony is Genesis could have had it all as this is the direction in which Gabriel steered them towards on Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (and long before Floyd at that).  But Banks & Co promptly began grumbling about Gabriel hogging all the limelight so it was back to melodic and pleasant albums which are better at showcasing musicianship than having something in particular to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 05:22
So prog is basically a sport?
It’s not about how the music sounds and makes you feel but rather more importantly whether or not it’s prog proper.


Nahh...I know what it is. Every major rock album out there received some form of backlash by certain folks who deem it crap/soft/unoriginal/etc...just ask The Beatles....and well Dark Side is almost universally loved from here to Timbuktu...and when folks then prefer Foxtrot or Yeti for that matter - albums far less known to the general public - it quickly becomes a mudslinging match where instead of mentioning why X album is brilliant...it turns into X album is great because Y is sh*t. Nothing is just brilliant anymore...it needs to be great in spite of something else...preferably with a sly sting to the kidneys: the music you love is crap!
Here I can prove it: a+k does not equal prog. Now how can it be any good?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 05:36
I don't get the bit about "deception" and masses thinking they get into the "hard stuff". Isn't it just what it is? And I think it got the people because they liked it and could relate to it, not because they'd want to brag about listening to something sophisticated and "hard stuff"... That some went on starting to appreciate more complex stuff because of it is a nice bonus but surely not the album's raison d'etre.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 06:16
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I don't get the bit about "deception" and masses thinking they get into the "hard stuff". Isn't it just what it is? And I think it got the people because they liked it and could relate to it, not because they'd want to brag about listening to something sophisticated and "hard stuff"... That some went on starting to appreciate more complex stuff because of it is a nice bonus but surely not the album's raison d'etre.

This is fast resembling the Beatles thread, I am afraid.  As somebody who does like Foxtrot, I find this so bizarre - the litany of excuses made and conspiracies cited, like it's not as if Floyd just made a great album, plain and simple.  Doesn't the voting too reflect that this is a tough choice?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 05:23
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In general it comes into the category of albums that are really important but I don't care to listen to that much. It did achieve a wider audience because of the perception that it actually meant something and was a commentary on the human race and the way modern life makes us slightly insane. I totally agree with that but it still doesn't make it any more interesting as a piece of music. I never got the hype over the production at all. It's way too 'clean' for me. I was never a vinyl junkie or headphone listener though. As I said in my earlier post it works well as a singular piece in a 'live event' especially when you have the right video backdrops.
Nowadays using the PA classification I consider it to be Crossover. I think calling it 'AOR' is incorrect but I respect Barney for stoking up a debate. About a million years ago ( well maybe 15) I even started a thread 'Is Dark Side Of The Moon overrated?' A lot of people then did think so and that probably hasn't changed. It was a very clever deception in some respects. At the time of its release it got the masses on board thinking they were getting into the 'hard stuff' when it was really just the tame soft gateway variety!




Believe it or not, I agree completely that DSOTM is just gateway prog at the most.  That is exactly why it hooks in a lot of people and I don't even think it's a deception unless Bob Dylan writing simple songs with profound lyrics is also considered a deception.  But all that aside, the issue here for me is I don't even consider Genesis far above the gateway prog territory.  If we were talking about some of the more demanding Canterbury stuff like National Health, VDGG, King Crimson, Gentle Giant or Magma (not even getting into Avant/RIO), I could understand.  But Genesis itself is extremely accessible.  In many ways, Genesis (in its prog phase) stands in a similar place in terms of its appeal to those who mainly like symphonic/melodic/accessible prog as DSOTM does w.r.t rock listeners who want some sophistication without going full tilt prog.  Genesis is nice and easy to get into.  Its Britishisms may be a tad quirky at times but that's about the only difficulty you would encounter.  

This is not to say that a lot of Genesis' work in their prog phase isn't brilliant.  It is.  But this is a good opportunity to refute the notion that because something is easy to listen to and not too complex means it cannot be brilliant.  Maybe what Floyd did on Dark Side offered a convenient model for bands like BOC to appear sophisticated by adding some melody and/or piano sections to their songs (Astronomy/Flaming Telepaths); Styx would do the same as well. But at that time, 1973, they offered something very different from the other big rock bands.  Not heavy and fast like Sabbath or Purple, not rambling like Led Zeppelin.  Not over the top like Queen.  The closest parallel is what The Who were doing at around the same time.  But Gilmour's gentle vocals added a dimension that The Who did not have.  And while Gilmour is not as effective in hard rocking vocals as Daltrey, he is pretty good himself going by the evidence of Money (or Young Lust later on The Wall). That range, to be adequately hard rocking and also very melodic and even plaintive, brought a different set of emotions to the table, complemented in turn by Waters' lyrics.  It is not so much a deception as it is an album that is greater than the sum of its parts.  Floyd in that DSOTM-Wall phase were better than any other rock/prog band at putting together an album.  Everything on their albums had a reason to exist.  No placating or pandering big egos ( a la the second half of Fragile), no throwaways, every song dovetailed into a larger concept (until Waters went for a full fledged concept album with Wall). 

The irony is Genesis could have had it all as this is the direction in which Gabriel steered them towards on Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (and long before Floyd at that).  But Banks & Co promptly began grumbling about Gabriel hogging all the limelight so it was back to melodic and pleasant albums which are better at showcasing musicianship than having something in particular to say.
If DSotM is a gateway, it's also because it's a perfect concept albuml. Foxtrot is not in that class, and is feet and hands above both production wise and commercially. More novices will hear DSotM long before they ever venture into early Genesis albums, with Abacab and it's followers being their first experiences.

Edited by SteveG - April 06 2020 at 05:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 05:41
Aye. DSOTM...is better produced an far more commercial, since it still sells...but so did abbey rd by the scouse insects and Thriller by that strange geezer....
Of course its a subjective call on whether or not it is crossover prog, AOR, art rock or plain pop...but I still rate every minute of Foxtrot > every minute of DSOTM....as most symphonic prog connoseurs would....😎
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 05:51
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Aye. DSOTM...is better produced an far more commercial, since it still sells...but so did abbey rd by the scouse insects and Thriller by that strange geezer....
Of course its a subjective call on whether or not it is crossover prog, AOR, art rock or plain pop...but I still rate every minute of Foxtrot > every minute of DSOTM....as most symphonic prog connoseurs would....😎


Your fanaticism is ruining Foxtrot for me tbh, I don't plan to listen to it any time soon so thank you (wish there was a middle finger emoticon on PA).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 06:17
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Aye. DSOTM...is better produced an far more commercial, since it still sells...but so did abbey rd by the scouse insects and Thriller by that strange geezer....
Of course its a subjective call on whether or not it is crossover prog, AOR, art rock or plain pop...but I still rate every minute of Foxtrot > every minute of DSOTM....as most symphonic prog connoseurs would....😎
So do I but that has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. DSotM will enact the initial interest, not Foxtrot.

Edited by SteveG - April 06 2020 at 06:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 06:27
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Aye. DSOTM...is better produced an far more commercial, since it still sells...but so did abbey rd by the scouse insects and Thriller by that strange geezer....
Of course its a subjective call on whether or not it is crossover prog, AOR, art rock or plain pop...but I still rate every minute of Foxtrot > every minute of DSOTM....as most symphonic prog connoseurs would....😎

And on cue, just when I said this has descended to the level of The Beatles are overrated thread, you confirm this.  Thanks much.  
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