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What’s your biggest gripe with the top 100
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Mascodagama View Drop Down
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Points: 5111 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2020 at 09:12
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.

I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something Wink

1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.





Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbersWink) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself.

I wrote on another forum that once KOB was on the PA database it was inevitable that it would feature in the top 100 because everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums knows it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time. Which was a bit trollish, but has an element of truth to it.


Did you mean to say: everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums is advised it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time?
What begins as the conventional wisdom of a hundred “best ever jazz” lists soon becomes an article of personal faith...and why bother to explore very much further when you've heard the best there is, and fallen asleep in your favourite armchair to it.

Personally it's not my favourite jazz LP of 1959, let alone of all time.

Edited by Mascodagama - February 24 2020 at 09:13
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I'm not saying that you are all wrong but personally, while I understand that people concentrate their listening of a genre, say jazz, to albums that are recommended as the best, and I even understand that they may also think it's the best not because they have critically built their own opinion but rather because people told them and they now believe they only "understand" the album to the extent that they agree with the majority opinion...

...I still can hardly understand why such people then would bother to rate or even review it. And KOB has truck loads of reviews, the vast majority of them 4 or 5 stars, many by long standing PA collaborators. But OK, may be *I* am lazy because I haven't rated and/or reviewed many albums that I have listened to critically and consciously lots of times, and surely none that I haven't bothered to listen to properly...


Edited by Lewian - February 24 2020 at 10:19
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I have no gripe at all. If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".
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Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

I have no gripe at all. If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".



Can't fault your reasoning there but some folks (even the most outwardly self opinionated) are covertly insecure and like to have their tastes reinforced by what they believe are accredited sources.
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Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

I have no gripe at all. If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".

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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Once again we fall into the standard remarks that prog rock and, by extension, PA is flawed because it's sub genres are a cross breed of prog rock with foreign musical elements, when prog rock it self is rock mixed with different musical elements. Worse is the notion that these sub genres are only progressive within their own genres, as if that argument somehow cleverly dispels that these genres are not prog rock. Consider this: there's factual progression in a rock sub genre but that sub genre is still not prog rock!! Does that make sense? It's same as saying a women is only a little pregnant. She's either pregnant or she's not.
...

Defining "rock" or "prog rock" ... is different in many countries, so attempting to say that it is this, or that, is kinda crazy ... in the USA and England, you could say that "electricity" is the biggest element of all besides the natural culture connections for each country, and after those two countries, places like Japan did not exactly sit by wayside watching, with some of the very creative and inventive keyboards for a long time.

My one and only gripe, is that some folks are "determining" what music is by the sound ... not the composition and the music itself ... you take half the "metal" stuff and unplug it, and it sounds the same as anything else ... and that means, it SHOULD NOT be some kind of a genre, just because it "sounds" like this or that!

I simply wish that it was more about the music itself, and not the amplification and the effects used ... when you take the "notes" and place them on the staff ... you got nothing worthy of notice in "music".

PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

...
 If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".
...

It's really easy to say something like that ... and not realize what the effects of it are. A list, of any kind, more often than not, has been for 75 years, about what supposedly sells the most, and a suggestion that this is the "thing" to get and to buy.

As a poor/bad example, and I am not criticizing the music, one famous colored balls guy, was not selling anything, and one day created his own top ten ... it became a huge company and stole hundreds of millions from many bands until the company was sold ... and probably still collecting residuals while many artists still have not collected a nickel.

So, whose side are you on? The music and the musicians, or the folks that steal from the musicians and the artists?


Edited by moshkito - February 25 2020 at 08:09
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Fook me moshkito, can I ask you a simple question?
What colour is the sky on your planet?
I would guess that most of us normal.punters on here, dont buy the sheet music of ANYTHING we have in our cd collection. And then compare the music as lines on bits of paper....we listen to the fuzz and wah effects as it appeals or not, we differentiate between the solos on guitar, organ, piano or flute and we listen to the growling of death metal singers and determine its appeal and thus place it into the pigeonhole for connoseurs of death metal....you can study your bits of paper if you like...😎
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Fook me moshkito, can I ask you a simple question?

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Yay! Let's all vote OBJECTIVELY about something that is a matter of taste and save the world.. Ermm
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Can't fault your reasoning there but some folks (even the most outwardly self opinionated) are covertly insecure and like to have their tastes reinforced by what they believe are accredited sources.
It is because they STRONGLY identify with what they like and they have the unconscious need to promote it and compare and rate and say it is better than X and Y in order to improve their self-esteem.
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Fook me moshkito, can I ask you a simple question?
What colour is the sky on your planet?
I would guess that most of us normal.punters on here, dont buy the sheet music of ANYTHING we have in our cd collection. And then compare the music as lines on bits of paper....we listen to the fuzz and wah effects as it appeals or not, we differentiate between the solos on guitar, organ, piano or flute and we listen to the growling of death metal singers and determine its appeal and thus place it into the pigeonhole for connoseurs of death metal....you can study your bits of paper if you like...😎

Hi,

Now you know why there isn't enough respect for the "pop music" culture ... go ahead ... snort your sound effects. 

It's just an attempt to raise the quality and the respect of a lot of music, and I think that progressive music, should be treated with more respect, than your "connoseurs" of anything.

Btw ... it's not about the "sheet of music", what I wrote ... mostly you should know what a lot of paper is used for! 

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Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Yay! Let's all vote OBJECTIVELY about something that is a matter of taste and save the world.. Ermm

Correct and I agree completely. That's been my entire point every post in this thread. It's all subjective, so why are people trying to argue there's a standard...then betray their own logic saying there isn't? That's all I'm seeing in this thread = "It's prog!" "It's not prog!" "Well, prog is actually a loose definition..." All of these are indirectly proving there is no one definition, and thus it will always be subjective regardless of our best effort to assign labels.

Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Can't fault your reasoning there but some folks (even the most outwardly self opinionated) are covertly insecure and like to have their tastes reinforced by what they believe are accredited sources.
It is because they STRONGLY identify with what they like and they have the unconscious need to promote it and compare and rate and say it is better than X and Y in order to improve their self-esteem.

Correct, but people forget this is a two way street. Dancing around in ambiguity/subjectivity while asserting prog rock is a set term in the first place is the same problem from a different angle. There are clearly two sides of the prog fence on PA. What I'm seeing is pseudo-intellectual people on PA getting pissed that actual intellectuals aren't putting up with irrational claims, doubling-down, then moving the goal posts when cornered (not saying you're doing this).

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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^ oy! Do I qualify as a psuedo intellectual or a bone-fide intellectual? I demand to know what genre my intellect falls into and what qualia I have to demonstrate in order to make the grade...

Edited by M27Barney - February 26 2020 at 04:31
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I'm guessing that FZ is one of the actual intellectuals along with Moshkito . Put me in the pseud camp please or the just plain stupid will do fine.
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You both fail, get to the back of the class Wink.

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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Yay! Let's all vote OBJECTIVELY about something that is a matter of taste and save the world.. Ermm


Correct and I agree completely. That's been my entire point every post in this thread. It's all subjective, so why are people trying to argue there's a standard...then betray their own logic saying there isn't? That's all I'm seeing in this thread = "It's prog!" "It's not prog!" "Well, prog is actually a loose definition..." All of these are indirectly proving there is no one definition, and thus it will always be subjective regardless of our best effort to assign labels.

<span style="line-height: 16.5455px;">
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

</span><div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">Can't fault your reasoning there but some folks (even the most outwardly self opinionated) are covertly insecure and like to have their tastes reinforced by what they believe are accredited sources.
<span style="line-height: 16.5455px;">
</span><div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">It is because they STRONGLY identify with what they like and they have the unconscious need to promote it and compare and rate and say it is better than X and Y in order to improve their self-esteem.<span style="line-height: 16.5455px;">
</span><div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">Correct, but people forget this is a two way street. Dancing around in ambiguity/subjectivity while asserting prog rock is a set term in the first place is the same problem from a different angle. There are clearly two sides of the prog fence on PA. What I'm seeing is pseudo-intellectual people on PA getting pissed that actual intellectuals aren't putting up with irrational claims, doubling-down, then moving the goal posts when cornered (not saying you're doing this).


At last, a mind applying reason, logic and everyday common sense, thank you FZ. If a label can mean various things to various people, and isn't accepted by everyone as correct, then it isn't a label, hell, it isn't even an accepted working term.
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"FZ - You both fail, get to the back of the class"

Tell us what the lesson is first? Then the parameters that are used to judge pass/failure...Then I can evaluate and report back to the department of progressive evaluation....DOPE to you...

Edited by M27Barney - February 27 2020 at 05:28
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

^ oy! Do I qualify as a psuedo intellectual or a bone-fide intellectual? I demand to know what genre my intellect falls into and what qualia I have to demonstrate in order to make the grade...
This is tricky but true. People who judge others to be either pseudo intellectuals or "bona fide" intellectuals are the pseudo intellectuals. "Bona fide" intellectuals are too smart to judge people on the basis of a forum post.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I'm guessing that FZ is one of the actual intellectuals along with Moshkito . Put me in the pseud camp please or the just plain stupid will do fine.
LOL

Hi,

Richard ... I'm a CHARTER MEMBER of the "Sweet To Be An Idiot" club ... you can't have my title!

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^ You asked for it barney. LOL
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