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LAM-SGC 
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 Posted: February 22 2020 at 07:21 |
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Thank you Lewian and Guldbamsen, very interesting reading.
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SteveG
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Posted: February 22 2020 at 09:28 |
Once again we fall into the standard remarks that prog rock and, by extension, PA is flawed because it's sub genres are a cross breed of prog rock with foreign musical elements, when prog rock it self is rock mixed with different musical elements. Worse is the notion that these sub genres are only progressive within their own genres, as if that argument somehow cleverly dispels that these genres are not prog rock. Consider this: there's factual progression in a rock sub genre but that sub genre is still not prog rock!! Does that make sense? It's same as saying a women is only a little pregnant. She's either pregnant or she's not.
By it's very nature, prog rock is a half breed sub genre of rock that for some strange reason people feel is some kind of a pure music genre, like the blues or folk, not realizing that music does not and never has existed in a vacuum and that folk and blues are amalgams of music traditions that are foreign to the United States.
Let's appease all of these unhappy people and petition that this site's name be changed to "Box Archives" so that those who foolishly feel that prog metal, psych rock/experimental and avant/RIO are not prog rock can have some peace and leave the fans of those sub genres in peace. In a site where such foolishness can't be blocked, it seem like the only remedy.
Edited by SteveG - February 22 2020 at 14:17
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ForestFriend
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Posted: February 22 2020 at 11:08 |
 LAM-SGC wrote:
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:
LAM-SGC wrote:
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:
LAM-SGC wrote:
ForestFriend wrote:
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:
If anything fusion makes the most logical sense to include, as it's actually a progression of one or more styles combined. Metal is just metal with progressive elements, but it's still metal.
Romantic Warrior is closer to progressive rock than Opeth, Symphony X, or Dream Theater. |
Metal is not just metal - it's also rock because metal is a subgenre of rock.
So progressive metal is progressive rock; it's just the bands focus on different musical elements. A prog metal band that isn't directly influenced by a classic prog band is almost as rare as a classic prog band that never incorporated elements of metal into their music.
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Sorry, but that is just nonsense, the progression in most so called progressive metal bands is progression within metal and based on metal. They do not copy prog rock bands nor do they have prog rock bands as an influence. |
Correct. The post before yours is attempting to arbitrarily blur lines between genres, then call that "prog". It's honestly no wonder this site is a mess. |
I agree completely. It all comes back to when many prog fans hear something in another genre that they recognize or like and immediately calling it prog, without ever once thinking, hey maybe that is what metal actually sounds like and maybe prog isn't a genre at all, but just a collection of sounds I like across genres. Bottom Line: prog fans have been appropriating and relabelling since classic prog died in the late 70s. |
It's good to know someone understands. This isn't elitism nor a knock; it's just rational comprehension of the usefulness of labels. If there's no standard and "anything is anything because it's art and subjective", then why all the genres in the first place? Most of the time I swear people come up with superfluous labels to avoid talking about anything legitimate because outside of being a musician or an obsessed fan, there's little grey room lol. |
Again, in full agreement with you. The uncomfortable truth though for many prog fans, and an issue swept under the carpet, is that while soul,jazz, metal, classical, hip hop etc. can all be defined rather exactly, prog can't be because it isn't an actual musical genre, which must be obvious to anyone reading any prog forum that includes bands from all sorts of defined genres.
And yet I love classic Prog Rock, and I think as a genre that is where it ends with prog in the genre name. Everything else already had its genre names, RIO, Zeuhl, fusion, electronic, avantgarde....but are they all prog? No, they are what it says on the tin, RIO, Zeuhl, fusion, electronic.
Otherwise, like you say, why bother with names at all? Let's just ignore all these names that the genres have given to themselves and instead listen to prog forums and call everything prog.
AND ULTIMATELY, it all comes down to the evidence of your ears, how can you listen to Camel, Opeth, Fairport Convention and Magma and call it all prog? Simple, because prog doesn't exist.
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How could "classic prog" be a meaningful genre... What band is the sound of classic prog? If you really listen closely, the music of King Crimson has very little to do with the music of Genesis which has little to do with the music of Yes, yet all 3 bands are staples of classic prog.
I think perhaps what's happening is what you call "prog" is really what this site categorizes as "symphonic prog". Granted, the symphonic elements are what most of the classic prog bands are known for (even King Crimson and Jethro Tull who are in other categories), but I think it's clear that most prog communities embrace the wider definition of prog which includes other types of "progression" in a rock context. When I listen to my local prog radio show for example, the DJ will play a large cross-section of symphonic, folk, jazz fusion, zeuhl, metal, etc.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
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Posted: February 22 2020 at 11:12 |
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Thanks Steve and Forest, what a lot of nonsense.
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Ian
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dougmcauliffe
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Posted: February 22 2020 at 15:27 |
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I don’t like where this thread has headed. This is a website for progressive music and that includes prog metal and fusion.
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Todd
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Posted: February 22 2020 at 20:50 |
Lewian wrote:
The music itself came before any "genre" classification, be it soul,jazz, metal, classical, hip hop, prog, whatever. What does it mean that a genre "exists"? At some point somebody used it as a stamp for a more or less homogeneous set of things and it became popular because there's some use to it. "Classical" a genre? I ask you! Where does it start, where does it stop? All these have their "half in half out" cases. If you look at the borders, you will nowhere find consensus. Obviously, once you have an established genre tag, some people will stay safely within the genre boundaries, there will be jazz clubs and hip hop events and whatnot (even if some of the artists that turn up will be frowned upon by "purists"), so a genre tag, once existing, will tend to confirm itself and create its own culture to the point that people start saying that "this is a gerne that really exists". This has happened with prog, too, by the way.
I agree that prog is an uncomfortable label tag because "prog" comes from "progressive" and the word has something to do with leaving any all too well defined space. I tend to say that what can be all too safely classified as "prog" is certainly not "progressive" - people here agree that these two terms don't mean the same, however it shouldn't be a total coincidence that "prog" is derived from that word...
But there's nothing wrong with embracing a genre tag like this that contains something of a self-contradiction. It actually gives us some flexibility and space to explore surely surprising things within its definitory borders, which as you say correctly can't be nailed down all too precisely. There's some fun to be had in this, some tension that you may find productive, as long as you don't take the whole "is it really prog?" thing too seriously. Surely in this spirit as a "prog fan" I don't envy at all a metal, jazz or hip hop fan who thinks that they can play it safe by staying within their well defined label. The interesting things there are also at the borders, and borders are always floating.
As of Miles Davis Kind of Blue in the Top 100, I agree it's not prog because at that time there's no "prog culture" whatsoever, no social system to which the term could point. Much different with later fusion work. However, I kind of like that it's among the other 99 just as a bone of contention to make people think and discuss. Maybe I'd agree that it doesn't "belong" there, but then I like the idea that we have a "prog top 100" that has some stuff in it that clearly isn't prog, because it demonstrates the difficulty to "formally" draw a line - which one can see as essential for prog(ressive). Rather than drawing the line more precisely, I'm happy to have a demonstration of ambiguity there, to face and embrace the ambiguity.
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Post of the year so far!
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SteveG
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Posted: February 23 2020 at 11:55 |
^ It's good to see you drop by Todd. 
At the risk of flogging a dead pony, I think a lot of the prejudice against some of the sub genres that's found here is due to these members viewing symphonic prog of the early prog groups as setting a standard for what should be considered prog rock, not realizing that progressive rock music by it's very nature can not fit into any type of strict category or description. And even if that was true, symphonic prog like that made by Yes, early KC, etc, is also a sub genre of progressive rock and is not in way, shape or form it's template.
Edited by SteveG - February 23 2020 at 12:07
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: February 23 2020 at 12:13 |
Uh yeah why aren't these guys in it? Does the top 100 have a bias against JRF? A bias in favor of Metal?It's not a serious gripe with me as I am liking the top 5 quite well.
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 23 2020 at 12:14
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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SteveG
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Posted: February 23 2020 at 12:14 |
^ yeah buddy! 
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Psychedelic Paul
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Posted: February 23 2020 at 13:14 |
SteveG wrote:
^ It's good to see you drop by Todd.
At the risk of flogging a dead pony, I think a lot of the prejudice against some of the sub genres that's found here is due to these members viewing symphonic prog of the early prog groups as setting a standard for what should be considered prog rock, not realizing that progressive rock music by it's very nature can not fit into any type of strict category or description. And even if that was true, symphonic prog like that made by Yes, early KC, etc, is also a sub genre of progressive rock and is not in way, shape or form it's template.
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The more the merrier. I definitely wouldn't want to see Jazz-Rock/Fusion artists excluded from ProgArchives on the grounds that they're not "proggy" enough, and the same goes for Hard Rock and Heavy Metal artists too.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: February 23 2020 at 18:47 |
SteveG wrote:
^ yeah buddy! |
Derp They are. My bad heheheh Geeze, now I am going to have to find something else to complain about. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 23 2020 at 18:49
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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thief
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 00:07 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Tiny minded people who have a gripe about it. |
Have you just called people here tiny minded?
Lewian wrote:
The music itself came before any "genre" classification, be it
soul,jazz, metal, classical, hip hop, prog, whatever. What does it mean
that a genre "exists"? At some point somebody used it as a stamp for a
more or less homogeneous set of things and it became popular because
there's some use to it. "Classical" a genre? I ask you! Where does it
start, where does it stop? All these have their "half in half out"
cases. If you look at the borders, you will nowhere find consensus.
Obviously, once you have an established genre tag, some people will stay
safely within the genre boundaries, there will be jazz clubs and hip
hop events and whatnot (even if some of the artists that turn up will be
frowned upon by "purists"), so a genre tag, once existing, will tend to
confirm itself and create its own culture to the point that people
start saying that "this is a gerne that really exists". This has happened with prog, too, by the way.
I
agree that prog is an uncomfortable label tag because "prog" comes from
"progressive" and the word has something to do with leaving any all too
well defined space. I tend to say that what can be all too safely
classified as "prog" is certainly not "progressive" - people here agree
that these two terms don't mean the same, however it shouldn't be a
total coincidence that "prog" is derived from that word...
But
there's nothing wrong with embracing a genre tag like this that
contains something of a self-contradiction. It actually gives us some
flexibility and space to explore surely surprising things within its
definitory borders, which as you say correctly can't be nailed down all
too precisely. There's some fun to be had in this, some tension that you
may find productive, as long as you don't take the whole "is it really
prog?" thing too seriously. Surely in this spirit as a "prog fan" I
don't envy at all a metal, jazz or hip hop fan who thinks that they can
play it safe by staying within their well defined label. The interesting
things there are also at the borders, and borders are always floating.
As
of Miles Davis Kind of Blue in the Top 100, I agree it's not prog
because at that time there's no "prog culture" whatsoever, no social
system to which the term could point. Much different with later fusion
work. However, I kind of like that it's among the other 99 just as a
bone of contention to make people think and discuss. Maybe I'd agree
that it doesn't "belong" there, but then I like the idea that we have a
"prog top 100" that has some stuff in it that clearly isn't prog,
because it demonstrates the difficulty to "formally" draw a line - which
one can see as essential for prog(ressive). Rather than drawing the
line more precisely, I'm happy to have a demonstration of ambiguity
there, to face and embrace the ambiguity. |
Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.
I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something 
1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.
Maybe we should add Beethoven to Progarchives and see if Moonlight Sonata and Für Elise get 4.70+ average with thosuands of votes... while Waldstein and Missa solemnis remain in relative obscurity
Edited by thief - February 24 2020 at 00:27
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Psychedelic Paul
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 02:08 |
thief wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Tiny minded people who have a gripe about it. |
Have you just called people here tiny minded?
Lewian wrote:
The music itself came before any "genre" classification, be it
soul,jazz, metal, classical, hip hop, prog, whatever. What does it mean
that a genre "exists"? At some point somebody used it as a stamp for a
more or less homogeneous set of things and it became popular because
there's some use to it. "Classical" a genre? I ask you! Where does it
start, where does it stop? All these have their "half in half out"
cases. If you look at the borders, you will nowhere find consensus.
Obviously, once you have an established genre tag, some people will stay
safely within the genre boundaries, there will be jazz clubs and hip
hop events and whatnot (even if some of the artists that turn up will be
frowned upon by "purists"), so a genre tag, once existing, will tend to
confirm itself and create its own culture to the point that people
start saying that "this is a gerne that really exists". This has happened with prog, too, by the way.
I
agree that prog is an uncomfortable label tag because "prog" comes from
"progressive" and the word has something to do with leaving any all too
well defined space. I tend to say that what can be all too safely
classified as "prog" is certainly not "progressive" - people here agree
that these two terms don't mean the same, however it shouldn't be a
total coincidence that "prog" is derived from that word...
But
there's nothing wrong with embracing a genre tag like this that
contains something of a self-contradiction. It actually gives us some
flexibility and space to explore surely surprising things within its
definitory borders, which as you say correctly can't be nailed down all
too precisely. There's some fun to be had in this, some tension that you
may find productive, as long as you don't take the whole "is it really
prog?" thing too seriously. Surely in this spirit as a "prog fan" I
don't envy at all a metal, jazz or hip hop fan who thinks that they can
play it safe by staying within their well defined label. The interesting
things there are also at the borders, and borders are always floating.
As
of Miles Davis Kind of Blue in the Top 100, I agree it's not prog
because at that time there's no "prog culture" whatsoever, no social
system to which the term could point. Much different with later fusion
work. However, I kind of like that it's among the other 99 just as a
bone of contention to make people think and discuss. Maybe I'd agree
that it doesn't "belong" there, but then I like the idea that we have a
"prog top 100" that has some stuff in it that clearly isn't prog,
because it demonstrates the difficulty to "formally" draw a line - which
one can see as essential for prog(ressive). Rather than drawing the
line more precisely, I'm happy to have a demonstration of ambiguity
there, to face and embrace the ambiguity. |
Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.
I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something
1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.
Maybe we should add Beethoven to Progarchives and see if Moonlight Sonata and Für Elise get 4.70+ average with thosuands of votes... while Waldstein and Missa solemnis remain in relative obscurity
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Count me in for some proggy Beethoven keyboard wizardry.
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thief
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 02:14 |
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Is Beethoven with Minimoog more of a Wakeman with sequin cape or Emerson with cowboy hats and knife-edges?
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SteveG
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 04:24 |
 Doh! 
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SteveG
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 04:29 |
thief wrote:
Is Beethoven with Minimoog more of a Wakeman with sequin cape or Emerson with cowboy hats and knife-edges?
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Hmm. Gotta go with Wakeman with a cape.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 06:52 |
thief wrote:
Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.
I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something
1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.
|
Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbers ) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself. |
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progmatic
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 06:58 |
" Never be afraid to think for yourself."
Amen.
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PROGMATIC
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Mascodagama
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 07:07 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
thief wrote:
Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.
I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something
1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.
|
Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbers ) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself. |
I wrote on another forum that once KOB was on the PA database it was inevitable that it would feature in the top 100 because everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums knows it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time. Which was a bit trollish, but has an element of truth to it.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: February 24 2020 at 07:13 |
Mascodagama wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
thief wrote:
Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.
I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something
1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.
|
Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbers ) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself. |
I wrote on another forum that once KOB was on the PA database it was inevitable that it would feature in the top 100 because everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums knows it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time. Which was a bit trollish, but has an element of truth to it. |
Did you mean to say: everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums is advised it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time?
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