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Why is prog rock always called "snooty"?

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Cristi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2019 at 07:54
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
If I ever get another finicky stuck up cat, I'm going to name it Snooty. Smile

You don't want a cat. Snidey, furry fookers who are just waiting for you to pass out so they can gorge on your exposed flesh...
I know. LOL



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2019 at 07:42
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Yes, all jesting aside, punk, and its sub genre of NY Hardcore, are directly responsible for the advent of Thrash from which death and Black metal would evolve. Unfortunately, those that misunderstand these metal genres are the same people that have just a fleeting and superficial understanding of punk. Ignorance is bliss for them for but quite annoying to anyone with half an idea of rock music outside of prog.
Well, that includes me then, because as well as not liking Punk-Rock, I can't stand Black Metal, Death Metal or Thrash Metal either, because it's quite literally not music to my ignorant ears. Smile

Whether you think it is music or not, the point is it did spawn all these genres.  That is what Tillerman contested and I refuted his comment.  End of story. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2019 at 07:38
^ Yes, we know. Lack of knowledge is the definition of ignorance and, generally, is nothing to be proud of. That's why so many try to overcome it. Smile
 
 
Edit: ironic smiley face added.


Edited by SteveG - December 11 2019 at 07:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2019 at 07:32
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Yes, all jesting aside, punk, and its sub genre of NY Hardcore, are directly responsible for the advent of Thrash from which death and Black metal would evolve. Unfortunately, those that misunderstand these metal genres are the same people that have just a fleeting and superficial understanding of punk. Ignorance is bliss for them for but quite annoying to anyone with half an idea of rock music outside of prog.
Well, that includes me then, because as well as not liking Punk-Rock, I can't stand Black Metal, Death Metal or Thrash Metal either, because it's quite literally not music to my ignorant ears. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2019 at 04:54
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


^ Yes, all jesting aside, punk, and its sub genre of NY Hardcore, are directly responsible for the advent of Thrash from which death and Black metal would evolve. Unfortunately, those that misunderstand these metal genres are the same people that have just a fleeting and superficial understanding of punk. Ignorance is bliss for them for but quite annoying to anyone with half an idea of rock music outside of prog.


   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2019 at 04:31
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
If I ever get another finicky stuck up cat, I'm going to name it Snooty. Smile

You don't want a cat. Snidey, furry fookers who are just waiting for you to pass out so they can gorge on your exposed flesh...
I know. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2019 at 04:30
^ Yes, all jesting aside, punk, and its sub genre of NY Hardcore, are directly responsible for the advent of Thrash from which death and Black metal would evolve. Unfortunately, those that misunderstand these metal genres are the same people that have just a fleeting and superficial understanding of punk. Ignorance is bliss for them for but quite annoying to anyone with half an idea of rock music outside of prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 17:48
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...
The crucial problem with Punk isn't its simplicity nor even that evident lack of musical originality, but rather the problem lies on the fact that Punk is entirely an artificial genre.

So artificial indeed that it spawned a whole plethora of extreme music genres never heard before in rock.  
 Clap Good on you, son.
LOL
Goshh.. that was harsh man.....
You know , The Clash may have shouted out about “No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling Stones, in 1977!”..
But , it seems now you're adding even more originality to their claim, when the ultimate question is: "Who started the whole plethora of extreme music genres (Confused) ?" hahahah......
Anyway .... let us face it punkers , here goes a final and definitive answer to you:  without Elvis fusing R&B and country back in the mid-fifties, The Clash would have had literally nothing to respond to , damn nothing to add to the lineage of 20th century pop! Tongue





It is simply a fact that without hardcore punk, there would never have been any extreme metal - thrash metal, death metal, black metal etc. Do you have any idea how many bands flourished in these and other sub genres of extreme metal? No, that kind of music wasn't born because Mike Rutherford played a galloping bassline the one time on Nursery Cryme. That music has a direct connection to punk and the musicians of the early bands in these genres cited hardcore punk as a direct influence. The biggest band to come out of extreme metal was, of course, Metallica and they cited The Misfits as an influence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 14:47
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
If I ever get another finicky stuck up cat, I'm going to name it Snooty. Smile

You don't want a cat. Snidey, furry fookers who are just waiting for you to pass out so they can gorge on your exposed flesh...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 12:27
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...
The crucial problem with Punk isn't its simplicity nor even that evident lack of musical originality, but rather the problem lies on the fact that Punk is entirely an artificial genre.

So artificial indeed that it spawned a whole plethora of extreme music genres never heard before in rock.  
 Clap Good on you, son.
LOL
Goshh.. that was harsh man.....
You know , The Clash may have shouted out about “No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling Stones, in 1977!”..
But , it seems now you're adding even more originality to their claim, when the ultimate question is: "Who started the whole plethora of extreme music genres (Confused) ?" hahahah......
Anyway .... let us face it punkers , here goes a final and definitive answer to you:  without Elvis fusing R&B and country back in the mid-fifties, The Clash would have had literally nothing to respond to , damn nothing to add to the lineage of 20th century pop! Tongue

The Clash, perhaps not. We're thinking of bands like the Stranglers and Wire (look them up). Let's see you laugh your way out of that.  LOL

Edited by SteveG - December 10 2019 at 14:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 12:22
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Musical genres aren't so neatly divided as some of you might think. I used to do punk rock shows at The Club Foote in San Francisco with a band that is on this site.
Thats right, Neurosis used to be part of the SF hardcore scene in the mid 80s.

What a great dive that place was, I remember the feet hanging from the ceiling.   I think I saw Twist & Scream there, and Nothing .


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 11:46
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...
The crucial problem with Punk isn't its simplicity nor even that evident lack of musical originality, but rather the problem lies on the fact that Punk is entirely an artificial genre.

So artificial indeed that it spawned a whole plethora of extreme music genres never heard before in rock.  
 Clap Good on you, son.
LOL
Goshh.. that was harsh man.....
You know , The Clash may have shouted out about “No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling Stones, in 1977!”..
But , it seems now you're adding even more originality to their claim, when the ultimate question is: "Who started the whole plethora of extreme music genres (Confused) ?" hahahah......
Anyway .... let us face it punkers , here goes a final and definitive answer to you:  without Elvis fusing R&B and country back in the mid-fifties, The Clash would have had literally nothing to respond to , damn nothing to add to the lineage of 20th century pop! Tongue



Edited by Tillerman88 - December 10 2019 at 11:50
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 11:42
Musical genres aren't so neatly divided as some of you might think. I used to do punk rock shows at The Club Foote in San Francisco with a band that is on this site.
Thats right, Neurosis used to be part of the SF hardcore scene in the mid 80s.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:58
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...
The crucial problem with Punk isn't its simplicity nor even that evident lack of musical originality, but rather the problem lies on the fact that Punk is entirely an artificial genre.

So artificial indeed that it spawned a whole plethora of extreme music genres never heard before in rock.  
Clap Good on you, son.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:57
Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...
The crucial problem with Punk isn't its simplicity nor even that evident lack of musical originality, but rather the problem lies on the fact that Punk is entirely an artificial genre.
LOL This thread is nothing if not entertaining!

Edited by SteveG - December 10 2019 at 09:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:56
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, the bold type was not directed at you, Madan, just the punk bashing Neanderthals.
Btw, what does UYI 1&2 mean?  Embarrassed

Use Your Illusion Pts 1 and 2.
Serves me right for not being a GnR fan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:43
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I think one thing that had happened by the mid to late seventies was that prog listening and probably also prog playing had distanced itself a lot from some of its roots, which were actually rebellious and truly progressive at the time, but in say 1978 no longer. Which is normal because rebellion isn't something that can naturally be sustained over a long time. Prog became music for those who had found what they like and stuck with it. Now that doesn't work as an act of rebellion anymore, and may look like stagnation to many. Telling the then new upcoming movement that their music is just crappy won't help. (Regardless of how crappy it actually might have been Wink.) Obviously the punk movement and later hip hop were susceptible to the very same tendency. And surely the music industry was always trying to find and hype the next hot sh..., as always later to the party than the real trendsetters but early enough to pretend to the majority that the sh.. is still hot.

This is all about sentiments and symbols, and not at all about the actual music - nothing of this would stop people producing good prog in 1979 and even 1985, and - beware! - good hip hop in 2015.

This happens to most new trends.  At a micro level, artists themselves go through this cycle where after a point of time (IF they have succeeded bigly), they are seen as the establishment and not hip music that rebels would want to listen to.  And as you say, this is completely irrespective of what kind of music the artists may be making.  That symbolism is too powerful for them to transcend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:41
Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...
The crucial problem with Punk isn't its simplicity nor even that evident lack of musical originality, but rather the problem lies on the fact that Punk is entirely an artificial genre.

So artificial indeed that it spawned a whole plethora of extreme music genres never heard before in rock.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:19
I think one thing that had happened by the mid to late seventies was that prog listening and probably also prog playing had distanced itself a lot from some of its roots, which were actually rebellious and truly progressive at the time, but in say 1978 no longer. Which is normal because rebellion isn't something that can naturally be sustained over a long time. Prog became music for those who had found what they like and stuck with it. Now that doesn't work as an act of rebellion anymore, and may look like stagnation to many. Telling the then new upcoming movement that their music is just crappy won't help. (Regardless of how crappy it actually might have been Wink.) Obviously the punk movement and later hip hop were susceptible to the very same tendency. And surely the music industry was always trying to find and hype the next hot sh..., as always later to the party than the real trendsetters but early enough to pretend to the majority that the sh.. is still hot.

This is all about sentiments and symbols, and not at all about the actual music - nothing of this would stop people producing good prog in 1979 and even 1985, and - beware! - good hip hop in 2015.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:13
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Traditionally, people struggling in poverty embrace escapism because listening to angry, depressing music is not going to make them feel better nor make their poverty go away. I know this because where I live, we have endemic and intergenerational poverty of the like the First World has not seen in a long time and the poor prefer glamorous commercial entertainers and it's the educated snobs like me who want more realism in movies.
 

I think it's a bit more complex than that. I agree you can find a lot of such people in disadvantaged environments, but also people who are more rebellious and focused on their reality. There's not "the poor" as if they were all the same. Depending on culture and social processes ( some would call it "fashion"), rebellion and focus on reality can become big there, at least once in a while. And I'd think that you'll also always find people who care for music but not much for the lyrics, this way or another.

For "educated snobs" chances are you find something resembling all these segments as well, except it's different because their reality is different; occasionally they may adopt the "realism" of people they perceive as disadvantaged because it cuts sharper than their own. Maybe one could call that reverse escapism. Their own reality wouldn't feed rebellion that well.

Oh sure, it's definitely more complex and my point in saying that was to push back against the notion that escapist music not rooted in reality would automatically be unappealing to people enduring suffering in life.  There's nothing like that and often escapist music (or entertainment of any other kind) is appealing for precisely that reason.  You're right of course in saying that many among the poor may also rebel against this reality.  Interestingly, I remember reading a long essay on unionism in 70s UK and it mentioned workers skipping duty to be able to spend time playing punk...as a vocation or hobby.  It comes back again to what you had said earlier in the discussion.  The most potent source of appeal for punk was that it was so much easier to perform.  Music keeps going through these cycles where there is a return to basics, of songs 'anybody could hum' and then there is a craving for ambition again.  
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