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Why is prog rock always called "snooty"?

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SteveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:07
^ To some people, less is more. But only when its dressed up in a suit of respectability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:18
WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:22
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
"Snooty" means showing disapproval or contempt towards others, especially those considered to belong to a lower social class, although I've never heard Prog_Rock referred to as "snooty" before - until now. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:24
Fook me...from what I saw of punk bands in the eighties, they didnt havw any real talent whatsoever....compare with my all time favourite gig, a handfull of people watching Pallas perform an extended Atlantis suite, and because I told the band that I loved bombast, mellotron and guitar virtuosity, they extended the hell out of march on atlantis, and it had the best guitar/mellotron and synth battle ever performed on stage....

Edited by M27Barney - December 10 2019 at 07:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:27
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
 
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The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:29
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Fook me...from what I saw of punk bands in the eighties, they didnt havw any real talent whatsoever....compare with my all time favourite gig, a handfull of people watching Pallas perform an extended Atlantis suite, and because I told the band that I loved bombast, mellotron and guitar virtuosity, they extended the hell out of march on atlantis, and it had the best guitar/mellotron and synth battle ever performed on stage....
You can't beat a bit of booming and bombastic Symphonic Prog with Mellotron and guitar virtuosity in abundance. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:54
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Fook me...from what I saw of punk bands in the eighties, they didnt havw any real talent whatsoever.....
Ok, you're fooked. Smile  I agree that many eighties punks were trash but those are the ones that jumped on the post (real) punk band wagon. That's why I refer to them as post pseudo punks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 07:59
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
If I ever get another finicky stuck up cat, I'm going to name it Snooty. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 08:15
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Anyone who knows twice as much as I do about punk is an expert in my book. Especially in a forum that's tailored for prog. While music doesn't exist in a vacuum, other's extended knowledge is there for the taking if one really does seek to know about the history of rock music.
 
I'm sure Mr. Fisher's blog is biased in favor of the Pistols, but it does help to dispel the myths that the Pistols were a completely faux group that could neither write music, play their own instruments or were complete puppets of McLaren.

I have never implied that but I will stand by the view that his assiduous promotion surely made it much easier for them to succeed and this was not something most bands received.  Likewise for GNR.  Yes, it was AXL's ego that destroyed the band but this is also much more likely to happen with these 'overnight success' cases than with a band that has spent a long time trying to break through.  The latter kind of band would not succeed without some measure of cohesion between the members. Whatever cohesion there was in GNR had already dissipated even by UYI 1&2. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 08:17
Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...

Possible, as a lot of the older prog rock fans don't seem to like metal either.  I mean extreme metal, Sepultura, Kreator, Nuclear Assault when I say metal, not Sabbath or Purple which is derived from the blues tradition and much easier to get into for rock lovers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 08:42
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Anyone who knows twice as much as I do about punk is an expert in my book. Especially in a forum that's tailored for prog. While music doesn't exist in a vacuum, other's extended knowledge is there for the taking if one really does seek to know about the history of rock music.
 
I'm sure Mr. Fisher's blog is biased in favor of the Pistols, but it does help to dispel the myths that the Pistols were a completely faux group that could neither write music, play their own instruments or were complete puppets of McLaren.

I have never implied that but I will stand by the view that his assiduous promotion surely made it much easier for them to succeed and this was not something most bands received.  Likewise for GNR.  Yes, it was AXL's ego that destroyed the band but this is also much more likely to happen with these 'overnight success' cases than with a band that has spent a long time trying to break through.  The latter kind of band would not succeed without some measure of cohesion between the members. Whatever cohesion there was in GNR had already dissipated even by UYI 1&2. 
Oh, the bold type was not directed at you, Madan, just the punk bashing Neanderthals.
Btw, what does UYI 1&2 mean?  Embarrassed

Edited by SteveG - December 10 2019 at 08:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 08:44
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Traditionally, people struggling in poverty embrace escapism because listening to angry, depressing music is not going to make them feel better nor make their poverty go away. I know this because where I live, we have endemic and intergenerational poverty of the like the First World has not seen in a long time and the poor prefer glamorous commercial entertainers and it's the educated snobs like me who want more realism in movies.
 

I think it's a bit more complex than that. I agree you can find a lot of such people in disadvantaged environments, but also people who are more rebellious and focused on their reality. There's not "the poor" as if they were all the same. Depending on culture and social processes ( some would call it "fashion"), rebellion and focus on reality can become big there, at least once in a while. And I'd think that you'll also always find people who care for music but not much for the lyrics, this way or another.

For "educated snobs" chances are you find something resembling all these segments as well, except it's different because their reality is different; occasionally they may adopt the "realism" of people they perceive as disadvantaged because it cuts sharper than their own. Maybe one could call that reverse escapism. Their own reality wouldn't feed rebellion that well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 08:53
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Traditionally, people struggling in poverty embrace escapism because listening to angry, depressing music is not going to make them feel better nor make their poverty go away. I know this because where I live, we have endemic and intergenerational poverty of the like the First World has not seen in a long time and the poor prefer glamorous commercial entertainers and it's the educated snobs like me who want more realism in movies.
 

I think it's a bit more complex than that. I agree you can find a lot of such people in disadvantaged environments, but also people who are more rebellious and focused on their reality. There's not "the poor" as if they were all the same. Depending on culture and social processes ( some would call it "fashion"), rebellion and focus on reality can become big there, at least once in a while. And I'd think that you'll also always find people who care for music but not much for the lyrics, this way or another.

For "educated snobs" chances are you find something resembling all these segments as well, except it's different because their reality is different; occasionally they may adopt the "realism" of people they perceive as disadvantaged because it cuts sharper than their own. Maybe one could call that reverse escapism. Their own reality wouldn't feed rebellion that well.
I agree 100%. Different cultures elicit deferent reactions. Some live in quiet desperation, as Roger Waters would say, while others go stark raving mad with anger. Others just go stark raving mad.

Edited by SteveG - December 10 2019 at 08:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 08:58
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

WHO'S THIS SNOOTY AND WHAT DOES HE WANT FROM ME?
If I ever get another finicky stuck up cat, I'm going to name it Snooty. Smile


Like I said, it's funny word for me. Good name for a cat, or a dog. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:08
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, the bold type was not directed at you, Madan, just the punk bashing Neanderthals.
Btw, what does UYI 1&2 mean?  Embarrassed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:13
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Traditionally, people struggling in poverty embrace escapism because listening to angry, depressing music is not going to make them feel better nor make their poverty go away. I know this because where I live, we have endemic and intergenerational poverty of the like the First World has not seen in a long time and the poor prefer glamorous commercial entertainers and it's the educated snobs like me who want more realism in movies.
 

I think it's a bit more complex than that. I agree you can find a lot of such people in disadvantaged environments, but also people who are more rebellious and focused on their reality. There's not "the poor" as if they were all the same. Depending on culture and social processes ( some would call it "fashion"), rebellion and focus on reality can become big there, at least once in a while. And I'd think that you'll also always find people who care for music but not much for the lyrics, this way or another.

For "educated snobs" chances are you find something resembling all these segments as well, except it's different because their reality is different; occasionally they may adopt the "realism" of people they perceive as disadvantaged because it cuts sharper than their own. Maybe one could call that reverse escapism. Their own reality wouldn't feed rebellion that well.

Oh sure, it's definitely more complex and my point in saying that was to push back against the notion that escapist music not rooted in reality would automatically be unappealing to people enduring suffering in life.  There's nothing like that and often escapist music (or entertainment of any other kind) is appealing for precisely that reason.  You're right of course in saying that many among the poor may also rebel against this reality.  Interestingly, I remember reading a long essay on unionism in 70s UK and it mentioned workers skipping duty to be able to spend time playing punk...as a vocation or hobby.  It comes back again to what you had said earlier in the discussion.  The most potent source of appeal for punk was that it was so much easier to perform.  Music keeps going through these cycles where there is a return to basics, of songs 'anybody could hum' and then there is a craving for ambition again.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:19
I think one thing that had happened by the mid to late seventies was that prog listening and probably also prog playing had distanced itself a lot from some of its roots, which were actually rebellious and truly progressive at the time, but in say 1978 no longer. Which is normal because rebellion isn't something that can naturally be sustained over a long time. Prog became music for those who had found what they like and stuck with it. Now that doesn't work as an act of rebellion anymore, and may look like stagnation to many. Telling the then new upcoming movement that their music is just crappy won't help. (Regardless of how crappy it actually might have been Wink.) Obviously the punk movement and later hip hop were susceptible to the very same tendency. And surely the music industry was always trying to find and hype the next hot sh..., as always later to the party than the real trendsetters but early enough to pretend to the majority that the sh.. is still hot.

This is all about sentiments and symbols, and not at all about the actual music - nothing of this would stop people producing good prog in 1979 and even 1985, and - beware! - good hip hop in 2015.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:41
Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Strange to see a lot of prog fans here deride punk and hip hop for their dumb, often crude simplicity while still embracing straightforward blues, funk and hard rock, which often built their appeal on the exact same dumb and simple music with fun and relatable hooks and lyrics. It seems there's bit of snootyness preventing them from admitting that they just don't like it when music sounds too harsh or digitized for them! This kind of preference would also perhaps explain why the current prog mainstream sounds the way it does (for better or worse)...
The crucial problem with Punk isn't its simplicity nor even that evident lack of musical originality, but rather the problem lies on the fact that Punk is entirely an artificial genre.

So artificial indeed that it spawned a whole plethora of extreme music genres never heard before in rock.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:43
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I think one thing that had happened by the mid to late seventies was that prog listening and probably also prog playing had distanced itself a lot from some of its roots, which were actually rebellious and truly progressive at the time, but in say 1978 no longer. Which is normal because rebellion isn't something that can naturally be sustained over a long time. Prog became music for those who had found what they like and stuck with it. Now that doesn't work as an act of rebellion anymore, and may look like stagnation to many. Telling the then new upcoming movement that their music is just crappy won't help. (Regardless of how crappy it actually might have been Wink.) Obviously the punk movement and later hip hop were susceptible to the very same tendency. And surely the music industry was always trying to find and hype the next hot sh..., as always later to the party than the real trendsetters but early enough to pretend to the majority that the sh.. is still hot.

This is all about sentiments and symbols, and not at all about the actual music - nothing of this would stop people producing good prog in 1979 and even 1985, and - beware! - good hip hop in 2015.

This happens to most new trends.  At a micro level, artists themselves go through this cycle where after a point of time (IF they have succeeded bigly), they are seen as the establishment and not hip music that rebels would want to listen to.  And as you say, this is completely irrespective of what kind of music the artists may be making.  That symbolism is too powerful for them to transcend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2019 at 09:56
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, the bold type was not directed at you, Madan, just the punk bashing Neanderthals.
Btw, what does UYI 1&2 mean?  Embarrassed

Use Your Illusion Pts 1 and 2.
Serves me right for not being a GnR fan.
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