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Why is prog rock always called "snooty"?

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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 10:19

I thought the real reason why punk rockers rejected prog and classic rock in general was because of its irrelevancy to their lives, and this is a valid criticism. After all, if one has lost their job from a factory and struggling to put food on the table, then a song about an armadillo-tank hybrid born from the eruption of a volcano, vanquishing over a variety of fictitious creatures until finally being defeated by a manticore, will seem quite unimportant to them. And when rich rock stars sing about the concerns of ordinary folk, it can seen quite phony, as if they are using the plights of the poor to get richer.

In a recent poll, hip-pop was the most disliked music by members of this forum. Why? Could it be that to middle-aged white men living in the suburbs, the stories of black urban youth are irrelevant?

It is interesting to note that Van der Graaf Generator managed to avoid the scorn given to other prog rockers. Could that be because Peter Hammill tends to write about the human condition, and thus maintain relevancy to those who reject other prog? And because Van der Graaf Generator were never really big, they also avoided being seen as phony.

 


Edited by I prophesy disaster - December 07 2019 at 10:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 11:12
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

In a recent poll, hip-pop was the most disliked music by members of this forum. Why? Could it be that to middle-aged white men living in the suburbs, the stories of black urban youth are irrelevant?

As a middle-aged white man living in the suburbs, I would suggest that "the stories of black urban youth are irrelevant" is not at all why hip-hop is derided. I would suggest that it relates more to the lack of instrumentality, the lack of compositional skills, the plinking of three note piano lines throughout songs, the inevitable drum machines, the over-production (seriously, does one need six to ten writers and producers to arrive at this swill?), the reliance on sampling songs from established artists, and the preponderance of "bling and bitches" lyrics ham-handedly muttered with forced rhyming schemes and an utter lack of intellectual honesty. This is not a stereotype or trope. This is the reality of what is being produced.

I would further suggest that I and many other middle-aged white men living in the suburbs grew up on and love black blues and jazz with a passion; in fact, the whole raison d'être of rock and roll is due to the roots music from which it was derived, and for which a whole generation of rock musicians strived to emulate and expand. They emulated and revered the compositional and instrumental abilities of their musical forefathers -- in many cases rejuvenating the careers of long-forgotten black artists. So using the false perception that disliking a genre of music based on not understanding or caring for "the plight of the black man" is nonsense.

There is music and then there is "product" that purports to be music but really is not.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 11:50
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

the preponderance of "bling and bitches" lyrics
 
Which is irrelevant to "middle-aged white men living in the suburbs". If you were a part of that culture, then those lyrics might be regarded as a good thing.
 
 
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

So using the false perception that disliking a genre of music based on not understanding or caring for "the plight of the black man" is nonsense.
 
 
I didn't say anything about "not understanding or not caring for 'the plight of the black man'". What I said was that the stories of black urban youth were irrelevant to middle-aged white men living in the suburbs, which is quite different to what you inferred.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 12:16
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

In a recent poll, hip-pop was the most disliked music by members of this forum. Why? Could it be that to middle-aged white men living in the suburbs, the stories of black urban youth are irrelevant?

As a middle-aged white man living in the suburbs, I would suggest that "the stories of black urban youth are irrelevant" is not at all why hip-hop is derided. I would suggest that it relates more to the lack of instrumentality, the lack of compositional skills, the plinking of three note piano lines throughout songs, the inevitable drum machines, the over-production (seriously, does one need six to ten writers and producers to arrive at this swill?), the reliance on sampling songs from established artists, and the preponderance of "bling and bitches" lyrics ham-handedly muttered with forced rhyming schemes and an utter lack of intellectual honesty. This is not a stereotype or trope. This is the reality of what is being produced.

I would further suggest that I and many other middle-aged white men living in the suburbs grew up on and love black blues and jazz with a passion; in fact, the whole raison d'être of rock and roll is due to the roots music from which it was derived, and for which a whole generation of rock musicians strived to emulate and expand. They emulated and revered the compositional and instrumental abilities of their musical forefathers -- in many cases rejuvenating the careers of long-forgotten black artists. So using the false perception that disliking a genre of music based on not understanding or caring for "the plight of the black man" is nonsense.

There is music and then there is "product" that purports to be music but really is not.


I agree with everything you said. Thumbs Up I'm a middle-aged white men living in the suburbs too, who also can't stand Rap/Hip Hop, but I Love black jazz and blues and I especially love SOUL music. Right On Brother! Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 13:17
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

the preponderance of "bling and bitches" lyrics
 
Which is irrelevant to "middle-aged white men living in the suburbs". If you were a part of that culture, then those lyrics might be regarded as a good thing.

Engendering and supporting crudity, crime, misogyny and bad music is never a good thing. Perhaps it is better to encourage ending that alleged "culture" as a dead end and harmful to those who regurgitate the effluvia and capitalize off of it would be more appropriate. Which is why I support the arts in schools; unfortunately, my government does not, which is a large part of the problem.
  
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

So using the false perception that disliking a genre of music based on not understanding or caring for "the plight of the black man" is nonsense.
 

I didn't say anything about "not understanding or not caring for 'the plight of the black man'". What I said was that the stories of black urban youth were irrelevant to middle-aged white men living in the suburbs, which is quite different to what you inferred.

The irrelevance is an alleged genre of music that is manifestly piss-poor. Aggrandizing a gangsta lifestyle and then claiming it is a culture (or music at all, for that matter), and then making the further absurd claim that these are "stories of black urban youth" is a disservice to the community from whence it was derived. It is a glorification of negative stereotypes in an effort to make money. It is relatively cheap to produce, manipulative, predatory, and self-defeating. 

I find it hilarious that Kendrick Lamar allowed a white girl up onstage to sing along to his song and then got offended when the fan repeated the word "Nigga", which were part of the lyrics. That is some special kind of stupid. The artist himself is perpetuating a negative, whole derisory term, and gets his panties in a twist when a fan who shelled out god knows how much money in concert tickets and CD sales for this imbecile repeats the lyrics he wrote. The irrelevance lies in the incomprehension or blithe ignorance of those who perpetuate this garbage.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 13:38
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

...
 
I should remark at this point that I also dislike hip hop for pretty much the same reasons that you dislike it. I only mentioned the irrelevancy of hip hop to prog fans to indicate that irrelevancy might go both ways.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 13:56
^^ Not only do I dislike Rap/Hip Hop intensely, I don't like what it stands for either, namely, crudity and vulgarity, the glorification of crime, particularly with Gangsta Rap, the drug culture,  misogyny (by referring to women as b******), and hatred of the police. Unhappy

Edited by Psychedelic Paul - December 07 2019 at 13:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 14:13
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

If you were a part of that culture, then those lyrics might be regarded as a good thing.

Engendering and supporting crudity, crime, misogyny and bad music is never a good thing.
 

You're making a moral judgement, whereas I was only making a statement based on popularity. In other words, "a good thing" in the sense of people liking it (even if it is not us who like it).
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 15:45
Hip hop is a highly dynamic and creative form of music made by those who often have little means with which to express themselves.   And quite frankly if the women of a certain group are just as big fans of a style as the men are, who cares what a bunch of amaroidal white people think.   'I prophesy disaster' is correct about the cultural mores at work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 17:37
Fortunately rock music is never crude, musically simple, misogynist or criminally inclined.

If you guys think all hip-hop is negative, you are just listening to the wrong artists. That generic gangsta crap on the radio isn't what the serious hip-hop fans are into.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2019 at 20:05
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Fortunately rock music is never crude, musically simple, misogynist or criminally inclined.

LOLLOLLOL  Lord, some topics still have the capacity to bring back PA as we knew it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2019 at 00:42
What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2019 at 03:50
"BITCHES"? aaah the more poetic prog term would be "snakes with tits" me thinks...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2019 at 04:19
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

"BITCHES"? aaah the more poetic prog term would be "snakes with tits" me thinks...


The purpose of a 'tit' is to feed your young. Snakes, like most reptiles, have very little requirement to provide parental care once their young are born, hence they have no need of mammary glands. That said, they clearly do not have a monopoly on the possible consequences of absent parenting.


Edited by ExittheLemming - December 08 2019 at 04:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2019 at 07:24
^ I was thinking of the mythical lamia rather than literally...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2019 at 11:15
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Fortunately rock music is never crude, musically simple, misogynist or criminally inclined.

Yeah, the way things are going, some rock artist is going to say something really inflammatory, like he's bigger than Jesus. Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2019 at 04:38
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Hip hop is a highly dynamic and creative form of music made by those who often have little means with which to express themselves.   And quite frankly if the women of a certain group are just as big fans of a style as the men are, who cares what a bunch of amaroidal white people think.   'I prophesy disaster' is correct about the cultural mores at work.

While I applaud early gangsta as a social commentary for urban blacks, hip hop (like punk) has morphed into a watered down commercially pop friendly medium. I'm not sure what viability it has for American urban blacks now, except as a way to legitimately make money. Unfortunately, hip hop and crime are not mutually exclusive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2019 at 05:15
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Hip hop is a highly dynamic and creative form of music made by those who often have little means with which to express themselves.   And quite frankly if the women of a certain group are just as big fans of a style as the men are, who cares what a bunch of amaroidal white people think.   'I prophesy disaster' is correct about the cultural mores at work.

While I applaud early gangsta as a social commentary for urban blacks, hip hop (like punk) has morphed into a watered down commercially pop friendly medium. I'm not sure what viability it has for American urban blacks now, except as a way to legitimately make money. Unfortunately, hip hop and crime are not mutually exclusive.
 
Chances are you don't know any European hip hop for example, be it done by black or white or however coloured people, and chances are your knowledge of American hip hop doesn't have much depth either. I don't claim mine has, but it's hard to assess a genre just from its commercially most easily visible surface. It's a bit like taking "We Can't Dance" as representative for what prog bands were up to in 1986.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2019 at 06:26
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Hip hop is a highly dynamic and creative form of music made by those who often have little means with which to express themselves.   And quite frankly if the women of a certain group are just as big fans of a style as the men are, who cares what a bunch of amaroidal white people think.   'I prophesy disaster' is correct about the cultural mores at work.

While I applaud early gangsta as a social commentary for urban blacks, hip hop (like punk) has morphed into a watered down commercially pop friendly medium. I'm not sure what viability it has for American urban blacks now, except as a way to legitimately make money. Unfortunately, hip hop and crime are not mutually exclusive.
 
Chances are you don't know any European hip hop for example, be it done by black or white or however coloured people, and chances are your knowledge of American hip hop doesn't have much depth either. I don't claim mine has, but it's hard to assess a genre just from its commercially most easily visible surface. It's a bit like taking "We Can't Dance" as representative for what prog bands were up to in 1986.
My knowledge of American hip hop includes Rakim, NWA, Wu Tang Clan, Dre, Eminem, Naughty By Nature, Public Enemy, Ice T, Ice Cube, Puff Daddy, Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Notorious B.I.G, Tupac, Drake, 50 Cent, Busta Rhymes, R. Kelly, Nicki Minaj, Kanye..
 
Should I go on?
 
(If I need to name check underground hip hop in order to have street cred, then I'll go with Binary Star and Hieroglyph.)


Edited by SteveG - December 09 2019 at 06:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2019 at 09:35
Originally posted by Huckabee Huckabee wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

After all, if one has lost their job from a factory and struggling to put food on the table, then a song about an armadillo-tank hybrid born from the eruption of a volcano, vanquishing over a variety of fictitious creatures until finally being defeated by a manticore
Bah. Not only that Punk was nothing new musically, but unlike the Sixties mod movement that was the change which came from below, i.e. from the youth whose bands were playing those R&B standards on more powerful and aggressive way and hence brought the new genre called 'Rock' [with capital 'R' and without 'roll'] to the world, Punk was created in the heights of British music press and being imposed to the kids. Thus, "Rotten" in fact was nothing less fictional character than an armadillo-tank hybrid born from the eruption of a volcano.
 
This doesn't ring "true" to me. Since when did the music industry create aggressive new music that challenged the status quo? The music industry is more about taking aggressive new music and watering it down for the masses.
 
 
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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