Why is prog rock always called &quot;snooty&quot;?

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 13:53

^ lesser free trade hall

What?

Anstey

Forum Groupie

Joined: December 04 2019
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 81

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 15:21

M27Barney wrote:

I know somebody who was ACTUALLY at the famous free trade hall concert,...PUNK was fun while it lasted, thrash metal was launched off its raw power...and I enjoyed those gigs as a teenager...weird times...but prog gigs always beat the raw power...

Regarding the raw power, heavy & catchy riffs and fun, Slade were the best to me back then.

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420

Post Options

Quote ExittheLemming

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 15:30

Dean wrote:

^ lesser free trade hall

...and if everyone who claims they were inspired to form a band after seeing the Pistols on the 4th June 1976 is to be believed, it must have been twice the size of Old Trafford Wink

Edited by ExittheLemming - December 06 2019 at 15:38

M27Barney

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136

Post Options

Quote M27Barney

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 15:45

Supposedly 800 saw that concert, I reckon I haven't met an old punk who didn't claim to be at that concert! Must be at least twice the size of the dream theatre...quarter of a million must have been pogoing round peter street...

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420

Post Options

Quote ExittheLemming

http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/05/11/110506_sex_pistols_gig_feature.shtml

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 16:05

M27Barney wrote:

Supposedly 800 saw that concert, I reckon I haven't met an old punk who didn't claim to be at that concert! Must be at least twice the size of the dream theatre...quarter of a million must have been pogoing round peter street...

rogerthat

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869

Post Options

Quote rogerthat

Thanks(1)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 20:32

Lewian wrote:

Surely it was more certain fans than the musicians (I didn't mean the term "progger" to refer to musicians in the first place). Regarding musicians I can't point the finger at anyone in particular but I remember having read negative opinions about punk and the musical tastes of the new generation of fans and musicians in interviews at the time. Maybe not that many. Surely I didn't mean Zappa. Chances are Frank Bornemann (Eloy) had the odd bitter comment on why the media would shred his music to tears and celebrate stuff that had much less to offer, but admittedly he was reacting on what the media did, and at least regarding his own music he was right pointing out that it was treated unfairly.

Yes, I believe this may be why prog rock musicians at the time came across as a little grumpy or whiny about punk. Rock journalists had nothing but an endless stream of negativity to offer about prog. Prog actually built its support base in spite of the media rather than because of it and truly did win over what audience it had. Whereas punk, for being a populist music, received fond attention from the media and this may have irked the prog rockers. These are, of course, simplifications because the antics of Sid Vicious also sent alarm bells ringing in many quarters at that time, at least I gather as much from the reporting.

rogerthat

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869

Post Options

Quote rogerthat

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 20:37

What punk spawned was far more interesting, musically, than pure punk itself (but of course, we have to start somewhere). The fundamental contribution of punk was the DIY ethos and of recasting rock as a violent music. By the time yours truly came along, it would have been impossible to think of rock as anything other than violent, anti-establishment music but that is probably not what it came across as in the environment that punk happened to disrupt. The interesting thing is even prog has appropriated that DIY ethos, something that Fripp essentially predicted well ahead of time as necessary. "Small, smart, self-sustaining, mobile unit" - that was his phrase, I think. And going by the work of the Wetton phase, he seemed to anticipate that prog was a little too much up in the clouds and needed to get down to terra firma and get gritty and dirty like its other rock siblings.

Anstey

Forum Groupie

Joined: December 04 2019
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 81

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 22:37

SteveG wrote:

Tillerman88 wrote:

Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^^ If the Congo delta pygmy tribe of Limomo can produce music as good as King Crimson, then I'd really like to hear them.

Hey don't be that "snooty" .... the truth is the other way round: King Crimson can produce music as good as the Congo delta pygmy tribe of Limomo, albeit accidentally! LOL

That's no stretch. Can Crimson do Anarchy In The UK as good as the Sex Pistols, accidentally or not? Now that's the question.

Crimson? Already in 1976, a Bosnian punk band did their own ripp-off of above mentioned Mr Hammill & Mr Eno songs. And I'm afraid that it's even a musically better song than "Anarchy In The UK" LOL

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420

Post Options

Quote ExittheLemming

Thanks(1)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 23:00

Anstey wrote:

SteveG wrote:

That's no stretch. Can Crimson do Anarchy In The UK as good as the Sex Pistols, accidentally or not? Now that's the question.

Crimson? Already in 1976, a Bosnian punk band did their version of above mentioned Mr Hammill & Mr Eno songs. And I'm afraid that it's even a musically better song than "Anarchy In The UK" LOL

[/QUOTE]

If the Mr Hamill songs you are referring to are from Nadir's Big Chance (1974) this was an avowed source of inspiration for the Pistol's John Lydon (he stated he was a big Hamill fan on a 1977 Capitol Radio interview)

Even the most revisionist UK music journalists circa 76/77 would have acknowledged the inspiration Punk drew from precursors like the MC5, (early) Who, (early) Kinks, Them, 13th Floor Elevators, Pink Fairies, Deviants, Captain Beefheart, Stooges, Seeds, NY Dolls, Can, Velvet Underground (the list goes on) It stands to reason that art doesn't exist in a vacuum and that the previous generation of musicians influence the next both positively and negatively. SteveG is right on the money here when he asks the (rhetorical) question: could Crimson do Anarchy in the UK as good as the Pistols? Only Lydon could have written the lyrics and only he could have delivered them in such an inimitable fashion. Only the Pistols could have written the music (that's what we have copyright laws for) and only they could have played it in such a confrontational, visceral and aggressive way. When you start to pepper a line of reasoning with expressions like 'musically better' we already know you have precisely zero evidence to back that up.

Edited by ExittheLemming - December 06 2019 at 23:01

Anstey

Forum Groupie

Joined: December 04 2019
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 81

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 06 2019 at 23:38

ExittheLemming wrote:

Anstey wrote:

SteveG wrote:

That's no stretch. Can Crimson do Anarchy In The UK as good as the Sex Pistols, accidentally or not? Now that's the question.

Crimson? Already in 1976, a Bosnian punk band did their version of above mentioned Mr Hammill & Mr Eno songs. And I'm afraid that it's even a musically better song than "Anarchy In The UK" LOL

Only the Pistols could have written the music (that's what we have copyright laws for) and only they could have played it in such a confrontational, visceral and aggressive way.

[/QUOTE]You got me crazy lol.

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Post Options

Thanks(1)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 00:08

Svetty Betty Clown

What?

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 00:15

The Lesser Free Trade Hall (upstairs hall in the main Free Trade building) had a maximum capacity of 150, most accounts reckon less than 50 people were in the audience.

What?

Anstey

Forum Groupie

Joined: December 04 2019
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 81

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 00:15

rogerthat wrote:

The fundamental contribution of punk was the DIY ethos and of recasting rock as a violent music.

But it's not true because rock bands didn't stopped to play "violent music" in the mid-1970s and then waiting for Rotten to resurrect the genre as rock journalists have preached and sadly continue to do so.

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29560

Post Options

Quote richardh

Thanks(1)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 00:30

SteveG wrote:

Btw, does anyone else here think that King Crimson never ripped off other genres when they created ItCotCK? Just curious.

They weren't the first though . The Nice , Procol Harum , Zappa , The Zodiac Cosmic Sounds of NY , Beatles , The Moodies. A more art based approach to rock had already started. Fripp and the boys distilled it, they didn't create it.

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Post Options

Thanks(1)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 00:37

richardh wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Btw, does anyone else here think that King Crimson never ripped off other genres when they created ItCotCK? Just curious.

Plus Renaissance, who didn't distil it, they concentrated it.

What?

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20436

Post Options

Quote Sean Trane

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 01:51

Dean wrote:

Svetty Betty Clown

M27Barney

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136

Post Options

Quote M27Barney

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 03:41

Dean wrote:

The Lesser Free Trade Hall (upstairs hall in the main Free Trade building) had a maximum capacity of 150, most accounts reckon less than 50 people were in the audience.

Ah...you see that I have learnt something I didn't know? After all the legendary stories I have heard in pubs all over manchester...I thought that the gig was in the big auditorium and the old punks I met said it was rammed...so I assumed betwixt 800-2000 ??? Another urban myth busted...

Edited by M27Barney - December 07 2019 at 03:43

M27Barney

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136

Post Options

Quote M27Barney

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 03:44

And my main source was probably lying too...

Tillerman88 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495

Post Options

Quote Tillerman88

Thanks(1)

Quote

Posted: December 07 2019 at 03:46

ExittheLemming wrote:

Anstey wrote:

SteveG wrote:

That's no stretch. Can Crimson do Anarchy In The UK as good as the Sex Pistols, accidentally or not? Now that's the question.

Crimson? Already in 1976, a Bosnian punk band did their version of above mentioned Mr Hammill & Mr Eno songs. And I'm afraid that it's even a musically better song than "Anarchy In The UK" LOL

Even the most revisionist UK music journalists circa 76/77 would have acknowledged the inspiration Punk drew from precursors like the MC5, (early) Who, (early) Kinks, Them, 13th Floor Elevators, Pink Fairies, Deviants, Captain Beefheart, Stooges, Seeds, NY Dolls, Can, Velvet Underground (the list goes on) It stands to reason that art doesn't exist in a vacuum and that the previous generation of musicians influence the next both positively and negatively. SteveG is right on the money here when he asks the (rhetorical) question: could Crimson do Anarchy in the UK as good as the Pistols? Only Lydon could have written the lyrics and only he could have delivered them in such an inimitable fashion. Only the Pistols could have written the music - [*(THANKS GOODNESS!)*] (that's what we have copyright laws for) and only they could have played it in such a confrontational, visceral and aggressive way. When you start to pepper a line of reasoning with expressions like 'musically better' we already know you have precisely zero evidence to back that up.

Aggressive.... confrontational .... violent...... you've made me laugh out loud hahaha ... thankfully a good bunch of "musically better" (or call it what you will) rock bands predated that piece of sh"t (put here Anarchy in the UK or many others of the same pistol's calibre) as far as aggressiveness AND violence are concerned , and there's no need of a music historian here to corroborate that. So , I'm done here, lest you come up whining with nonsenses like "there's no evidences to back that up" ... or ....."there's no sensible evidence" hahahah .... sigh

The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...

SteveG

Forum Senior Member

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617

Post Options

Quote SteveG