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Why is Tull's "A Passion Play" rated so low?

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Sandro28grizz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandro28grizz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2019 at 18:31
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.

The ironic thing is that WarChild would not likely not turned out the way it did if not for the shelling that APP took in the press. It's well-known that Ian took the criticism of APP to heart, and so made sure the next album was the polar opposite. If APP was rated highly by the critics of the day, it's likely we would not have gotten anything close to WarChild as we know it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandro28grizz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2019 at 18:39
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

For a rock album, it is actually quite well-researched and a brilliant modernized rendition of the Passion Plays (better referred to as Mystery Plays) of the late Middle-Ages/early Tudor epoch, when such "Morality Plays" would be seen in town streets and squares prior to the playhouses and actual dramas and comedies of Elizabethan England. Springing originally from Easter Pageants, where indeed the devil and the Resurrection were integral parts of "Passion Plays", the Mystery/Morality Plays expanded on the theme to include prostitutes, criminals and various other reprobates who eventually were "saved" by divine intervention. 

It would be rude of me to say that perhaps the subject matter and presentation is well above a few folks' heads here, but it is what it is, even if you don't quite get it; yet as a Medievalist I have always found the album fascinating. Rather than a Renaissance Faire approximation of early music, Ian Anderson instead takes the actual bones of the original play concept and gives it a modern take, with modern, progressive music, rather than lute and tabor mimicry. Even the name "Ronnie Pilgrim" is a nod to early English narrative poetry featuring the "Everyman" as an allegorical character (such as Langland's The Vision of Piers Plowman), and his journey from death to rebirth is an ironic twist on the crucifixion and resurrection of the early Passion Plays.

"The Story Of The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" rather than being misjudged as some bizarre oddity plopped in the mid-section of the album by modern critics is actually a fair representation of a Mystery Play's Interlude, a break in the more serious play that often featured a humorous or absurd fable to keep the commoners and groundlings from drifting off from the heavier sermonizing.

That A Passion Play ends not in the Lord's Resurrection but Ronnie Pilgrim's reincarnation is another ironic twist and a punch to the gut of the religiosity Ian Anderson loved to skewer.

A splendid album, well worth a serious listen. Particularly if you take the whole in context and realize this release was far beyond the trite and rehashed hedonism of most rock albums in 1973.  

Interesting post. Never knew anything about medieval "mystery plays" but always loved this album. 

You wouldn't happen to be Morthoron from the Tolkien boards, would you? Your avatar and general way of posting reminds me of him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2019 at 23:33
Originally posted by Sandro28grizz Sandro28grizz wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.


The ironic thing is that WarChild would not likely not turned out the way it did if not for the shelling that APP took in the press. It's well-known that Ian took the criticism of APP to heart, and so made sure the next album was the polar opposite. If APP was rated highly by the critics of the day, it's likely we would not have gotten anything close to WarChild as we know it.


Yeah it would have been more of a prog rock album. Could have been a double album but the band planned to do two albums plus the orchestral score. Imagine the movie came out with 3 albums worth of tunes. John Cleese was involved too
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2019 at 11:35
If the popular expectation of prog is a boring meandering mess, then APP should be ranked higher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2019 at 14:09
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If the popular expectation of prog is a boring meandering mess, then APP should be ranked higher.

You're wrong, of course. But I will defend your right to be wrong. Because wrong opinions are the building blocks of Prog Archives. It's what has made this site what it is. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2019 at 14:16
^ Greg, you're wrong to say I'm wrong but I'll defend you're right to say I'm wrong when you're wrong.

Edited by SteveG - October 12 2019 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2019 at 15:12
Originally posted by Sandro28grizz Sandro28grizz wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.

The ironic thing is that WarChild would not likely not turned out the way it did if not for the shelling that APP took in the press. It's well-known that Ian took the criticism of APP to heart, and so made sure the next album was the polar opposite. If APP was rated highly by the critics of the day, it's likely we would not have gotten anything close to WarChild as we know it.
 

Well, this makes obvious that Ian should have done his own way instead of giving an ear to the critics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2019 at 12:46
My 3 star PA review of APP:

The trouble I find with APP is not that it is a bad album but simply that's it's only half a good album. After the stunning success of Thick As A Brick, Anderson and co. decided to push the long suite album epic even further. But the first side of APP is a veritable dirge filled with verbose lyrics that narrowly fill every dragged out beat of the depressing narrative in a queasy sing song style with music supported by Anderson's sub par saxophone. A flute, a flute, my Kingdom for a flute! Why Anderson decided to focus on the sax and discard his superlative flute playing is beyond me. When the slow minor key verses and musically clumsy narrative verses cease, the band lunches into dramatic faux jams with loud drums and bass that never venture past punctuated staggered notes and rhythms. This would normally signify a change to some wonderfully melodious music that, for whatever reason, never happens, as if Anderson is driving this musical car yelling "Left turn, right turn, left turn" while missing the road to the better more coherent music to follow. It's as if the catchy rhythms and melodies that lie just around the bend are always being bypssed. This is some of the most unappealing prog rock that I've ever encountered but the lyrics that accompany this dirge are no saving grace either.
 
Lines like "the ice cream lady wet her draws" and "and your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulder of a young horse named George", while interesting and cute, are a far cry from anything that would be considered poetry and offer no deeper meanings, metaphorical or otherwise, and are certainly not close to any type of profound theological thought or comment. No great loss really as prog was never known for great lyrics but any help that they could have given to the music would have been welcome.

The mock theatrical debacle that is The Story Of The Hare That Lost His Spectacles (one of the worst fillers to be found in an album of any genre) is so poor and appalling that the least said about it, the better. An unfunny story with garish "acting" by sidemen Evan and Hammond-Hammond. In fact, it makes the myriad of ELP's "humorous songs" like Benny The Bouncer seem almost Shakespearian. Luckily, good songwriting, arranging and musical sense return for the album's concluding 18 minutes. We are returned the APP narrative which now boasts deft melodies and syncopated rhythms, particularly on the driving "Lucifer" section which boasts some very modern, for the time, sounding sythn accompaniment from Evan. This much needed bombast is too short but following suites offer beautiful near Flamenco type acoustic guitar from Anderson, as well as the return of his wonderful concert flute, which signals the feeling that one is back on safe and familiar Tull musical ground. Right after, Martin Barre interjects some of the most jaggered and brash sounding guitar chords he's ever played (or that I've ever heard!). The dramatic shift in the music is welcome and enjoyable until Old Ian ends this epic with slow acoustic strums and a plaintive last verse. The last 18 minutes of APP are some of the best music that Tull ever put on tape. But at what cost to the listener?

No one would be expected to consume a burnt entree only to get to a fantastic dessert. The same standard holds true for music. The last half of APP is quite a musical dessert, but no one should have to suffer through the main course in order to get to it. 3 stars.



Edited by SteveG - October 14 2019 at 05:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 08:30
Originally posted by Sandro28grizz Sandro28grizz wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

For a rock album, it is actually quite well-researched and a brilliant modernized rendition of the Passion Plays (better referred to as Mystery Plays) of the late Middle-Ages/early Tudor epoch, when such "Morality Plays" would be seen in town streets and squares prior to the playhouses and actual dramas and comedies of Elizabethan England. Springing originally from Easter Pageants, where indeed the devil and the Resurrection were integral parts of "Passion Plays", the Mystery/Morality Plays expanded on the theme to include prostitutes, criminals and various other reprobates who eventually were "saved" by divine intervention. 

It would be rude of me to say that perhaps the subject matter and presentation is well above a few folks' heads here, but it is what it is, even if you don't quite get it; yet as a Medievalist I have always found the album fascinating. Rather than a Renaissance Faire approximation of early music, Ian Anderson instead takes the actual bones of the original play concept and gives it a modern take, with modern, progressive music, rather than lute and tabor mimicry. Even the name "Ronnie Pilgrim" is a nod to early English narrative poetry featuring the "Everyman" as an allegorical character (such as Langland's The Vision of Piers Plowman), and his journey from death to rebirth is an ironic twist on the crucifixion and resurrection of the early Passion Plays.

"The Story Of The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" rather than being misjudged as some bizarre oddity plopped in the mid-section of the album by modern critics is actually a fair representation of a Mystery Play's Interlude, a break in the more serious play that often featured a humorous or absurd fable to keep the commoners and groundlings from drifting off from the heavier sermonizing.

That A Passion Play ends not in the Lord's Resurrection but Ronnie Pilgrim's reincarnation is another ironic twist and a punch to the gut of the religiosity Ian Anderson loved to skewer.

A splendid album, well worth a serious listen. Particularly if you take the whole in context and realize this release was far beyond the trite and rehashed hedonism of most rock albums in 1973.  

Interesting post. Never knew anything about medieval "mystery plays" but always loved this album. 

You wouldn't happen to be Morthoron from the Tolkien boards, would you? Your avatar and general way of posting reminds me of him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 08:58
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Sandro28grizz Sandro28grizz wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

For a rock album, it is actually quite well-researched and a brilliant modernized rendition of the Passion Plays (better referred to as Mystery Plays) of the late Middle-Ages/early Tudor epoch, when such "Morality Plays" would be seen in town streets and squares prior to the playhouses and actual dramas and comedies of Elizabethan England. Springing originally from Easter Pageants, where indeed the devil and the Resurrection were integral parts of "Passion Plays", the Mystery/Morality Plays expanded on the theme to include prostitutes, criminals and various other reprobates who eventually were "saved" by divine intervention. 

It would be rude of me to say that perhaps the subject matter and presentation is well above a few folks' heads here, but it is what it is, even if you don't quite get it; yet as a Medievalist I have always found the album fascinating. Rather than a Renaissance Faire approximation of early music, Ian Anderson instead takes the actual bones of the original play concept and gives it a modern take, with modern, progressive music, rather than lute and tabor mimicry. Even the name "Ronnie Pilgrim" is a nod to early English narrative poetry featuring the "Everyman" as an allegorical character (such as Langland's The Vision of Piers Plowman), and his journey from death to rebirth is an ironic twist on the crucifixion and resurrection of the early Passion Plays.

"The Story Of The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" rather than being misjudged as some bizarre oddity plopped in the mid-section of the album by modern critics is actually a fair representation of a Mystery Play's Interlude, a break in the more serious play that often featured a humorous or absurd fable to keep the commoners and groundlings from drifting off from the heavier sermonizing.

That A Passion Play ends not in the Lord's Resurrection but Ronnie Pilgrim's reincarnation is another ironic twist and a punch to the gut of the religiosity Ian Anderson loved to skewer.

A splendid album, well worth a serious listen. Particularly if you take the whole in context and realize this release was far beyond the trite and rehashed hedonism of most rock albums in 1973.  

Interesting post. Never knew anything about medieval "mystery plays" but always loved this album. 

You wouldn't happen to be Morthoron from the Tolkien boards, would you? Your avatar and general way of posting reminds me of him.
Mellyn istar enith dîn. Ah i goth geritha rîn, ir geveditha chethyl a bing vín.
Anderson's numerous references from Blake to Pilgrim, if understood by the lay person, are nothing more than rehashed theology, at best. But not understood, they are nothing more then a tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deafmoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 09:10
I like the album...I don't love the album. I think the biggest drawback for A Passion Play or any Tull album that would have followed TAAB is just that. TAAB was such a complete concept album that anything Tull would have done right after it would be rated lower. Unfair? Maybe, but that's for listeners to decide. The second drawback was radio airplay, at least in the USA. WPLJ & WNEW in New York City played nothing from that album. Cuts from Stand Up, Benefit, Aqualung and the radio version TAAB dominated the airwaves for Tull in The States until Warchild came out. And even there, how great his Back Door Angels, and yet the radio stations played Skating Away & The Third Hoorah every hour. But this is why the internet now is so great because what radio didn't bring me in  the 70's, 80's, 90's and on...I can hear about from this site or any others that propagate ONLY GOOD MUSIC or BAD. And we all stay away from THE BAD, but Mainstream Entertainment just keeps shoveling it at us. Apologies for the rant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 11:05
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Anderson's numerous references from Blake to Pilgrim, if understood by the lay person, are nothing more than rehashed theology, at best. But not understood, they are nothing more then a tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

And yet, here you are mentioning "Blake to Pilgrim" -- in the context of a rock album, and in an ass-backwards manner acknowledging APP's worth. 

But I suppose the term "progressive" to the stereotypical "lay person" you refer to is merely the perceived ability to fluff a three chord song into 20 or 30 minutes of doodling, rather than actually challenging the intellect of the listener. Or, god forbid, actually write lyrics that require more than the blithe acceptance of the crotch sniffing lines found in "Whole Lotta Led Zeppelin". You sound like Emperor Joseph II in Amadeus when he offered the blank summation "there are simply too many notes" to Mozart. What exactly was the point of "progressive rock" if not to go beyond the 12 bar blues-influenced structures of the 1950s and 1960s?

"Rehashed theology" is rather revisionist, don't you think? We are talking 1973, when women were still burning their bras and Catholic priests were allowed to fondle altar boys without the impedance of any legal authority -- or moral authority, for that matter. Coming from a Catholic school upbringing myself (I would say "reared" but that might give the wrong impression), the albums Aqualung, Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play were integral puzzle pieces in allowing a young teenager, such as myself, to go from a feeling of solitary unease and distaste about my indoctrination, to realizing that others felt the same way, and a rock band, no less, singing about it. Religion, and more precisely the Catholic religion, was a sham of Latinate mumbo-jumbo and archaic rituals, a facade to hide the nothingness behind the silken screen. 

I discussed this in another forum, but in part it can apply here. There was more to Ian Anderson's lyrical take on Mystery Plays than just a "Rehashed theology". Surprisingly, for a rock star perhaps, Anderson actually put in some research for the writing of the piece, rather than just crib some Willie Dixon lyrics and call it a day.

As a Medievalist in both a literary and historical sense (yes, degrees that never remotely impinged on what I actually accomplished career-wise), I was researching a poem by William Langland (b. 1332 - d. 1400) titled "The Vision Concerning Piers Plowman" (a famous 14th century work of allegorical satire), and the text I was using referenced an old and anonymous English morality play "Hickscorner" printed by Wynken de Worde (who died in 1534, and was partner of John Caxton, the first printer in England -- but you, of course, knew that).

A word in the reference material immediately struck me. Here is the section of the "Hickscorner" play in question:

What, sirs, I tell you my name is Freewill,
I may choose whether I do good or ill;
But for all that I will do as me list.
My condition ye know not, perdé,
I can fight, chide, and be merry;
Full soon of my company ye would be weary
An ye knew all.
What, fill the cup and make good cheer,
I trow I have a noble here!


Why is this so goddamned important, you ask? 

Well, there has been a long debate regarding the meaning of "Magus Perdé " in the final part of A Passion Play. After researching the word further based on the usage in the play, I can say unequivocally that "perdé " in this instance means "by God".

When the character says "My condition ye know not, Perdé ", he is, in effect, using a mild expletive as emphasis. He is saying "My condition ye know not, by God!"

Perdé is cognate with Middle English spellings of the same word, such as "perdie" or "pardie": 1200- 50; late Middle English pardie, Middle English parde < Old French par De < Latin per Deum by God.

Now, many folks say the word "magus" means magician or wizard; however, the original meaning comes from Persia to define the Zoroastrian priest caste (hence in the bible the "Magi" are wise men, not wizards).

So, Magus Perdé most likely means "priest by/of God". Telling a priest of God to "take your hand from off the chain" may infer back to the anti-religious, anti-clerical rhetoric of Aqualung. Priests of the Anglican or Catholic persuasion do not accept reincarnation, which of course is what Ian is referring to in that section of A Passion Play.

Therefore, it seems likely that Ian came across this "morality play" (which grew out of the English tradition of 14th and 15th century "mystery plays" and "miracle plays") when doing a bit of research on his "Passion Play". And the fact that reincarnation is not an acceptable tenet of the Church of England, gives credence that the line

Magus Perdé, take your hand from off the chain

is a demand from Ian that the Church loose the chains that bind religion to other concepts, particularly when one looks at the lyrics that follow:

The passengers upon the ferry crossing, waiting to be born,
renew the pledge of life's long song rise to the reveille horn.


-and-

Here am I! Roll the stone away
from the dark into ever-day.


It would seem that Ian is equating the resurrection of Jesus to the reincarnation of Ronnie Pilgrim.

P.S. And so, Steve, I am delighted that such an album as A Passion Play exists, and I am unconcerned if people "don't get it". But just as you stated: "The mock theatrical debacle that is The Story Of The Hare That Lost His Spectacles (one of the worst fillers to be found in an album of any genre) is so poor and appalling that the least said about it, the better"; however, in context as an absurd fable used as an Interlude in an actual and historically correct Passion or Mystery Play, it is meant for the groundlings (or as Ben Jonson might refer to them as "Penny-stinkers") who may drift off from the more headier theological offerings (much like Shakespeare's absurd asides by gravediggers commenting on the mundane).

I would quote Ian Anderson directly in regards to critics: "But you're wrong, Steve: you see it's only solitaire."



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 11:41
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


And yet, here you are mentioning "Blake to Pilgrim" -- in the context of a rock album, and in an ass-backwards manner acknowledging APP's worth. 

But I suppose the term "progressive" to the stereotypical "lay person" you refer to is merely the perceived ability to fluff a three chord song into 20 or 30 minutes of doodling, rather than actually challenging the intellect of the listener. Or, god forbid, actually write lyrics that require more than the blithe acceptance of the crotch sniffing lines found in "Whole Lotta Led Zeppelin". You sound like Emperor Joseph II in Amadeus when he offered the blank summation "there are simply too many notes" to Mozart. What exactly was the point of "progressive rock" if not to go beyond the 12 bar blues-influenced structures of the 1950s and 1960s?

"Rehashed theology" is rather revisionist, don't you think? We are talking 1973, when women were still burning their bras and Catholic priests were allowed to fondle altar boys without the impedance of any legal authority -- or moral authority, for that matter. Coming from a Catholic school upbringing myself (I would say "reared" but that might give the wrong impression), the albums Aqualung, Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play were integral puzzle pieces in allowing a young teenager, such as myself, to go from a feeling of solitary unease and distaste about my indoctrination, to realizing that others felt the same way, and a rock band, no less, singing about it. Religion, and more precisely the Catholic religion, was a sham of Latinate mumbo-jumbo and archaic rituals, a facade to hide the nothingness behind the silken screen. 

I discussed this in another forum, but in part it can apply here. There was more to Ian Anderson's lyrical take on Mystery Plays than just a "Rehashed theology". Surprisingly, for a rock star perhaps, Anderson actually put in some research for the writing of the piece, rather than just crib some Willie Dixon lyrics and call it a day.

As a Medievalist in both a literary and historical sense (yes, degrees that never remotely impinged on what I actually accomplished career-wise), I was researching a poem by William Langland (b. 1332 - d. 1400) titled "The Vision Concerning Piers Plowman" (a famous 14th century work of allegorical satire), and the text I was using referenced an old and anonymous English morality play "Hickscorner" printed by Wynken de Worde (who died in 1534, and was partner of John Caxton, the first printer in England -- but you, of course, knew that).

A word in the reference material immediately struck me. Here is the section of the "Hickscorner" play in question:

What, sirs, I tell you my name is Freewill,
I may choose whether I do good or ill;
But for all that I will do as me list.
My condition ye know not, perdé,
I can fight, chide, and be merry;
Full soon of my company ye would be weary
An ye knew all.
What, fill the cup and make good cheer,
I trow I have a noble here!


Why is this so goddamned important, you ask? 

Well, there has been a long debate regarding the meaning of "Magus Perdé " in the final part of A Passion Play. After researching the word further based on the usage in the play, I can say unequivocally that "perdé " in this instance means "by God".

When the character says "My condition ye know not, Perdé ", he is, in effect, using a mild expletive as emphasis. He is saying "My condition ye know not, by God!"

Perdé is cognate with Middle English spellings of the same word, such as "perdie" or "pardie": 1200- 50; late Middle English pardie, Middle English parde < Old French par De < Latin per Deum by God.

Now, many folks say the word "magus" means magician or wizard; however, the original meaning comes from Persia to define the Zoroastrian priest caste (hence in the bible the "Magi" are wise men, not wizards).

So, Magus Perdé most likely means "priest by/of God". Telling a priest of God to "take your hand from off the chain" may infer back to the anti-religious, anti-clerical rhetoric of Aqualung. Priests of the Anglican or Catholic persuasion do not accept reincarnation, which of course is what Ian is referring to in that section of A Passion Play.

Therefore, it seems likely that Ian came across this "morality play" (which grew out of the English tradition of 14th and 15th century "mystery plays" and "miracle plays") when doing a bit of research on his "Passion Play". And the fact that reincarnation is not an acceptable tenet of the Church of England, gives credence that the line

Magus Perdé, take your hand from off the chain

is a demand from Ian that the Church loose the chains that bind religion to other concepts, particularly when one looks at the lyrics that follow:

The passengers upon the ferry crossing, waiting to be born,
renew the pledge of life's long song rise to the reveille horn.


-and-

Here am I! Roll the stone away
from the dark into ever-day.


It would seem that Ian is equating the resurrection of Jesus to the reincarnation of Ronnie Pilgrim.

P.S. And so, Steve, I am delighted that such an album as A Passion Play exists, and I am unconcerned if people "don't get it". But just as you stated: "The mock theatrical debacle that is The Story Of The Hare That Lost His Spectacles (one of the worst fillers to be found in an album of any genre) is so poor and appalling that the least said about it, the better"; however, in context as an absurd fable used as an Interlude in an actual and historically correct Passion or Mystery Play, it is meant for the groundlings (or as Ben Jonson might refer to them as "Penny-stinkers") who may drift off from the more headier theological offerings (much like Shakespeare's absurd asides by gravediggers commenting on the mundane).

I would quote Ian Anderson directly in regards to critics: "But you're wrong, Steve: you see it's only solitaire."



I have really loved reading your informed posts on this topic....I remember at the time, learning about the context and references of this LP when it was released and right you are on the subject regarding the passion plays.  Thank you!  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 11:43
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Anderson's numerous references from Blake to Pilgrim, if understood by the lay person, are nothing more than rehashed theology, at best. But not understood, they are nothing more then a tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

And yet, here you are mentioning "Blake to Pilgrim" -- in the context of a rock album, and in an ass-backwards manner acknowledging APP's worth. 

But I suppose the term "progressive" to the stereotypical "lay person" you refer to is merely the perceived ability to fluff a three chord song into 20 or 30 minutes of doodling, rather than actually challenging the intellect of the listener. Or, god forbid, actually write lyrics that require more than the blithe acceptance of the crotch sniffing lines found in "Whole Lotta Led Zeppelin". You sound like Emperor Joseph II in Amadeus when he offered the blank summation "there are simply too many notes" to Mozart. What exactly was the point of "progressive rock" if not to go beyond the 12 bar blues-influenced structures of the 1950s and 1960s?

"Rehashed theology" is rather revisionist, don't you think? We are talking 1973, when women were still burning their bras and Catholic priests were allowed to fondle altar boys without the impedance of any legal authority -- or moral authority, for that matter. Coming from a Catholic school upbringing myself (I would say "reared" but that might give the wrong impression), the albums Aqualung, Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play were integral puzzle pieces in allowing a young teenager, such as myself, to go from a feeling of solitary unease and distaste about my indoctrination, to realizing that others felt the same way, and a rock band, no less, singing about it. Religion, and more precisely the Catholic religion, was a sham of Latinate mumbo-jumbo and archaic rituals, a facade to hide the nothingness behind the silken screen. 

I discussed this in another forum, but in part it can apply here. There was more to Ian Anderson's lyrical take on Mystery Plays than just a "Rehashed theology". Surprisingly, for a rock star perhaps, Anderson actually put in some research for the writing of the piece, rather than just crib some Willie Dixon lyrics and call it a day.

As a Medievalist in both a literary and historical sense (yes, degrees that never remotely impinged on what I actually accomplished career-wise), I was researching a poem by William Langland (b. 1332 - d. 1400) titled "The Vision Concerning Piers Plowman" (a famous 14th century work of allegorical satire), and the text I was using referenced an old and anonymous English morality play "Hickscorner" printed by Wynken de Worde (who died in 1534, and was partner of John Caxton, the first printer in England -- but you, of course, knew that).

A word in the reference material immediately struck me. Here is the section of the "Hickscorner" play in question:

What, sirs, I tell you my name is Freewill,
I may choose whether I do good or ill;
But for all that I will do as me list.
My condition ye know not, perdé,
I can fight, chide, and be merry;
Full soon of my company ye would be weary
An ye knew all.
What, fill the cup and make good cheer,
I trow I have a noble here!


Why is this so goddamned important, you ask? 

Well, there has been a long debate regarding the meaning of "Magus Perdé " in the final part of A Passion Play. After researching the word further based on the usage in the play, I can say unequivocally that "perdé " in this instance means "by God".

When the character says "My condition ye know not, Perdé ", he is, in effect, using a mild expletive as emphasis. He is saying "My condition ye know not, by God!"

Perdé is cognate with Middle English spellings of the same word, such as "perdie" or "pardie": 1200- 50; late Middle English pardie, Middle English parde < Old French par De < Latin per Deum by God.

Now, many folks say the word "magus" means magician or wizard; however, the original meaning comes from Persia to define the Zoroastrian priest caste (hence in the bible the "Magi" are wise men, not wizards).

So, Magus Perdé most likely means "priest by/of God". Telling a priest of God to "take your hand from off the chain" may infer back to the anti-religious, anti-clerical rhetoric of Aqualung. Priests of the Anglican or Catholic persuasion do not accept reincarnation, which of course is what Ian is referring to in that section of A Passion Play.

Therefore, it seems likely that Ian came across this "morality play" (which grew out of the English tradition of 14th and 15th century "mystery plays" and "miracle plays") when doing a bit of research on his "Passion Play". And the fact that reincarnation is not an acceptable tenet of the Church of England, gives credence that the line

Magus Perdé, take your hand from off the chain

is a demand from Ian that the Church loose the chains that bind religion to other concepts, particularly when one looks at the lyrics that follow:

The passengers upon the ferry crossing, waiting to be born,
renew the pledge of life's long song rise to the reveille horn.


-and-

Here am I! Roll the stone away
from the dark into ever-day.


It would seem that Ian is equating the resurrection of Jesus to the reincarnation of Ronnie Pilgrim.

P.S. And so, Steve, I am delighted that such an album as A Passion Play exists, and I am unconcerned if people "don't get it". But just as you stated: "The mock theatrical debacle that is The Story Of The Hare That Lost His Spectacles (one of the worst fillers to be found in an album of any genre) is so poor and appalling that the least said about it, the better"; however, in context as an absurd fable used as an Interlude in an actual and historically correct Passion or Mystery Play, it is meant for the groundlings (or as Ben Jonson might refer to them as "Penny-stinkers") who may drift off from the more headier theological offerings (much like Shakespeare's absurd asides by gravediggers commenting on the mundane).

I would quote Ian Anderson directly in regards to critics: "But you're wrong, Steve: you see it's only solitaire."



Greg, any Tom, Dick, and Harry, or even a Steve, can steal quotes or motifs from Blake, Milton and Pilgrim. You're only one I know that would call it as an act of genius. And if anything you wrote above (baring your explanation of the penny-stinker) is not rehashed theology, then what is?

Edited by SteveG - October 14 2019 at 11:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 12:00
Confused  After pondering all this, perhaps my 3 star rating for the album is too high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 13:14
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
Greg, any Tom, Dick, and Harry, or even a Steve, can steal quotes or motifs from Blake, Milton and Pilgrim. You're only one I know that would call it as an act of genius. And if anything you wrote above (baring your explanation of the penny-stinker) is not rehashed theology, then what is?

If taking a hero's journey from Joseph Campbell, or more to the point Dante, turning it on its head, and have the Pilgrim reject the afterlife offered by both God and Lucifer as not his cup of tea, and so return to life as a corporeal manifestation is rehashed theology, then Moby Dick is just a rehash of sailors' tales. I love how folks on here get Herculean erections over Gabriel and Genesis borrowing reams of material from Greek mythos or simply retell a legend of King Canute, and consider it bloody brilliant, yet Tull actually attacks the church establishment and religion in 1973 and it's "rehashed theology".  

Next time Tom, Dick, Harry or Steve can "steal quotes" from Revelations, Mark Ch. 2, v.9, Shakespeare, Aleister Crowley, Blake, Dante, Voltaire or Milton (might as well offer a fuller list of references in APP), compose an entire 45 minute concept album around them based on historical dramas of pre-Tudor England (complete with an Aesopian allegorical interlude that borders on pagan pageantry -- precisely as an Interlude would have appeared in a Mystery Play), have the piece not contain a 45 single for mass radio consumption, have the critics like yourself largely condemn it, and still have the album go to #1 on the charts in the U.S. and Canada, get back to me.... 

I'll wait. And while we wait for something that will never happen again, let's watch something Pythonesque for the penny-stinkers. They'll like the colorful scenes and the anthropomorphic animals:




Edited by The Dark Elf - October 14 2019 at 13:14
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 15:36
Try listening to side 2 first from the remix with the extra minute. Starting with Forest dance 2. It’s similar quality to Thick side 1

Edited by dr prog - October 14 2019 at 15:36
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 16:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2019 at 17:00
Note that they are from different perspectives, however. One was from the time and the other fairly recent, so in retrospect.  Just noting that they are not from the same period.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2019 at 04:18
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
Greg, any Tom, Dick, and Harry, or even a Steve, can steal quotes or motifs from Blake, Milton and Pilgrim. You're only one I know that would call it as an act of genius. And if anything you wrote above (baring your explanation of the penny-stinker) is not rehashed theology, then what is?
Next time Tom, Dick, Harry or Steve can "steal quotes" from Revelations, Mark Ch. 2, v.9, Shakespeare, Aleister Crowley, Blake, Dante, Voltaire or Milton (might as well offer a fuller list of references in APP), compose an entire 45 minute concept album around them based on historical dramas of pre-Tudor England (complete with an Aesopian allegorical interlude that borders on pagan pageantry -- precisely as an Interlude would have appeared in a Mystery Play), have the piece not contain a 45 single for mass radio consumption, have the critics like yourself largely condemn it, and still have the album go to #1 on the charts in the U.S. and Canada, get back to me.... 

 


 
Let's put the remarkable (initial) sales success of APP into perspective, shall we? In 1972, Thick As A Brick was released to big commercial sales, mostly critical acclaim, monster live appreciation and both edited and unedited  FM radio play. The large initial sales of APP, in 1973, were from those who bought the album sight unseen, or unheard to be precise, expecting more of the same quality as that offered by TAAB. As soon as the public actually heard the album there was nothing but disappointment. Tull's live presentation of the album was quickly sh*t canned and the group reverted back to playing their back catalogue along with an edited version of TAAB on stage. The negative popular and critical condemnation of the album forced the group to stage a mock "break up" over it and the "story" was published, forgive me if I'm wrong, in the New Musical Express. I don't see anything note worthy about any of this, do you? I think it's quite conceivable that the same could happen again. When it does, I'll be sure to let you know.

Edited by SteveG - October 15 2019 at 04:26
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