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[/QUOTE]

I also don't care much about when the music was created, but more about the music itself. Even more so if I was not even born when it was created. However, I would even think it's a plus, in a way, for that means the band are doing what they want, what they feel like doing, and not going with the sream just because the rest are doing such and so. For what I understand about those times, I think it was a real bold move to do such an album just when Punk was rising and attacking that kind of music... and being succesful at doing so and following it with such a huge tour. As for production, I don't really pay that much attention to it. If there are some good studio tricks that sound cool and all I will just as well enjoy them, but most of all it's about the music, and as long as the sound quality isn't bad to the point of bothering me, I'll enjoy the music just as well. I can enjoy Ummagumma just as much as Dark Side without any complaint.[/QUOTE]

Great point! Who cares what was going on at the time. Is it relevant today? Does it stir emotion, admiration, and respect now, today? 

Can't believe Hawkwind and Planet Gong are mentioned as examples of what was truly reflective of the times (1977)! If this were the case, why weren't their albums A) big sellers, B) the talk of the world at that time (in the media), and C) rated higher here on PA where people care about progressive rock music? 
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"Any Colour You Like" changed my life as a kid. 
Always hated "Money" (and still do).

"Great Gig" and "Time" are in a category of rarefied numen. We'll call it "peak progiastics" or "progasm."

A tough album to pick a "best" or "favorite" cuz I used to only play whole sides: all of Side One or all of Side Two after skipping "Money," every night, for years!
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Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

 Best: Time
Worst: On The Run


This, but it's my favorite album ever so I love basically all of it.

Obviously taken on its own Speak to Me is the worst since it's hardly a song.

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Foxprog Foxprog wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Time
Money

I'm not a massive fan of this album although I've seen it performed live in it's entirety and it becomes a different animal in that environment entirely. It rocks big time and the guitar licks are some of the best of any genre. However I will always turn towards Wish You Were Here and Animals if I feel like listening to some Floyd.
 
If I want to listen to Pink Floyd I will turn to "Ummagumma" or "Meddle", but most definitely not to the ridiculously overrated "Animals". Had "Animals" come out a few years earlier my opinion would be different, but for the time it came out it was absolutely lame compared to what was musically going on at that time.
 

Animals is not vastly overrated. By looking it objectively, it's the only Floyd album without "bad songs". The album is solid as a rock. It's also the favourite album by many hardcore Floyd fans.
 
first of all: there is no such thing as "looking at something objectively"; this only exists in your imagination. personal taste always plays a crucial role. and "bad" is in the eye of the beholder, or rather the ear of the listener. there are in my opinion definitely two weak tracks on "Animals", the two parts of "Pigs on the Wing". "Meddle" or "Ummagumma" don't have weak tracks. yes, I love "San Tropez" and "Seamus" (how someone can NOT love that dog's singing is beyond me, but I know many people hate that track).

second: as Friede rightly pointed out an album has to be viewed in the context of the time it was recorded. had "Animals" been recorded in 1972 or 1973 it would have been great. but at the time it came out it sounded as if coming from a bunch of BOFs who are totally oblivious to what is musically going on around them and who have become so saturated that they can't get their fat asses out of their armchairs anymore to really get rocking. other artists had noticed the sign of the times and reacted; take for example Hawkwind's "Quark, Strangeness and Charme" or "Live Floating Anarchy" by Planet Gong which came out in the same year as "Animals".

I know a lot of people love "Animals", but for me it is absolutely lame. in the context of time, of course

Why it's context so important? If the same notes, performed the same exact way had been recorded before or after it would be a great album, but when it did it isn't? It sounds strange, especially given you said in a different post that you don't care about production and only the music. I struggle to see how "context" falls under the definition of music but "production" doesn't LOL (though I kinda agree with what you said about production tho, it's just that context it's way more irrelevant than production for me).


I also don't care much about when the music was created, but more about the music itself. Even more so if I was not even born when it was created. However, I would even think it's a plus, in a way, for that means the band are doing what they want, what they feel like doing, and not going with the sream just because the rest are doing such and so. For what I understand about those times, I think it was a real bold move to do such an album just when Punk was rising and attacking that kind of music... and being succesful at doing so and following it with such a huge tour. As for production, I don't really pay that much attention to it. If there are some good studio tricks that sound cool and all I will just as well enjoy them, but most of all it's about the music, and as long as the sound quality isn't bad to the point of bothering me, I'll enjoy the music just as well. I can enjoy Ummagumma just as much as Dark Side without any complaint.
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Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

 Best: Time
Worst: On The Run

This, but it's my favorite album ever so I love basically all of it.

Obviously taken on its own Speak to Me is the worst since it's hardly a song.

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Foxprog Foxprog wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Time
Money

I'm not a massive fan of this album although I've seen it performed live in it's entirety and it becomes a different animal in that environment entirely. It rocks big time and the guitar licks are some of the best of any genre. However I will always turn towards Wish You Were Here and Animals if I feel like listening to some Floyd.
 
If I want to listen to Pink Floyd I will turn to "Ummagumma" or "Meddle", but most definitely not to the ridiculously overrated "Animals". Had "Animals" come out a few years earlier my opinion would be different, but for the time it came out it was absolutely lame compared to what was musically going on at that time.
 

Animals is not vastly overrated. By looking it objectively, it's the only Floyd album without "bad songs". The album is solid as a rock. It's also the favourite album by many hardcore Floyd fans.
 
first of all: there is no such thing as "looking at something objectively"; this only exists in your imagination. personal taste always plays a crucial role. and "bad" is in the eye of the beholder, or rather the ear of the listener. there are in my opinion definitely two weak tracks on "Animals", the two parts of "Pigs on the Wing". "Meddle" or "Ummagumma" don't have weak tracks. yes, I love "San Tropez" and "Seamus" (how someone can NOT love that dog's singing is beyond me, but I know many people hate that track).

second: as Friede rightly pointed out an album has to be viewed in the context of the time it was recorded. had "Animals" been recorded in 1972 or 1973 it would have been great. but at the time it came out it sounded as if coming from a bunch of BOFs who are totally oblivious to what is musically going on around them and who have become so saturated that they can't get their fat asses out of their armchairs anymore to really get rocking. other artists had noticed the sign of the times and reacted; take for example Hawkwind's "Quark, Strangeness and Charme" or "Live Floating Anarchy" by Planet Gong which came out in the same year as "Animals".

I know a lot of people love "Animals", but for me it is absolutely lame. in the context of time, of course

Why it's context so important? If the same notes, performed the same exact way had been recorded before or after it would be a great album, but when it did it isn't? It sounds strange, especially given you said in a different post that you don't care about production and only the music. I struggle to see how "context" falls under the definition of music but "production" doesn't LOL (though I kinda agree with what you said about production tho, it's just that context it's way more irrelevant than production for me).
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Strongest: Time, Us and Them
Weakest: Speak to Me

… and hooking into the Animals discussion: the Pigs-songs are not the strongest ones, but Sheep and Dogs lift the album up to the upper middle class of PF's catalog.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Following up on the Animals discussion, musically Animals is not innovative by any means but the lyrical concept is very convincing and the music is a perfect fit for it. I can see why people who are looking for innovation and surprise find it lame. However in my view it's a very good and legitimate way to follow up on the super successful DSOTM and WYWH. There is justified disappointment when a band after such a success just tries to do it again and produces an uninspired clone. On the other hand I'm fine with bands that develop slowly rather than doing something completely different, and surely not everybody has to "go with the time" (which may mean development as well as losing identity and trying something that others do better). Animals sits pretty well in the middle. It builds on the predecessors and sounds very mature and confident, and it also has some edge that DSOTM and WYWH don't have. Also in its time it may not have been the coolest most exciting thing around, but listening to it in 2019 it has aged quite well and for my personal listening pleasure why would it make a difference whether it came out in 1977 or 1973?

Strange discussion ... since PF was already doing all of the ANIMALS and WYWH material during the DSOTM tour. It was well known that they liked to play the stuff and smooth it out before putting it on record.

My take on the order of the releases, is that the record company wanted an album that was not so different from DSOTM, and thus WYWH was put together, which to me, is just 2/3's of an album and the rest after Roy is just a throwaway left over. But the record company did not want to see "Raving and Drooling" and "You Got to be Crazy" released, because it was so different from DSOTM ... and on top of it, "Raving and Drooling" in its early form was one of the best pieces of SPACE ROCK, on line with 2 of their early pieces (Astronomy Domine and Interstellar Overdrive), and sadly, by the time it made it to an album, it was ravaged senseless and its drive was gone, into something else ... it was still good, but ... now it was just a song, instead of it being a really good trip!

And this is the part that I missed from PF ... in the middle of those years and their 2 or 3 albums, they stopped being a great trip band ... it was now all songs ... and of course, here we are, on a "progressive" board and someone is talking about "songs" ... the music is now worthless and simplified to the lowest level possible!

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Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

I think the production of Ummagumma is perfect for the kind of music. The murkiness gives a sense of mystery.
In my opinion, an appropriate production has a great deal in making music that sounds alive.

I think, that this comment may be ... somewhat incorrect, and unfair to PF.

UMMAGUMMA, in many ways, is just a solo album, and its sound appears to have been generated from what we would probably call "home studio" which takes away the slickness that the previous studio albums with Syd Barrett obviously had, as the mixes are really good, and helps emphasize the lyrics even more.

The "murkiness" is a result of not being in a massive big studio with all the stuff available to them, and I wonder if you are implying more to that album than is really there.

Compare the "individual" touches that UMMAGUMA has, which is a set of solo albums, with DG's solo album with fattened lyrics with bacon and eggs, and is so stuffy as to make you open the windows and let the smog in!

For the record, DSOTM is not an album that I can select a "song". The whole thing makes sense in one sitting from beginning to end, and for me to select one "song" is to destroy a great piece of music, into a bunch of top ten crap. And to me, this album is not crap, but its material stands up better together, not apart, even if most folks want to hear MONEY yet again ... ohhhh you should have heard the 23 minute reggae version of that they did in concert, which has never been released ... it was even better, and probably the only bit I would buy separate.
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Following up on the Animals discussion, musically Animals is not innovative by any means but the lyrical concept is very convincing and the music is a perfect fit for it. I can see why people who are looking for innovation and surprise find it lame. However in my view it's a very good and legitimate way to follow up on the super successful DSOTM and WYWH. There is justified disappointment when a band after such a success just tries to do it again and produces an uninspired clone. On the other hand I'm fine with bands that develop slowly rather than doing something completely different, and surely not everybody has to "go with the time" (which may mean development as well as losing identity and trying something that others do better). Animals sits pretty well in the middle. It builds on the predecessors and sounds very mature and confident, and it also has some edge that DSOTM and WYWH don't have. Also in its time it may not have been the coolest most exciting thing around, but listening to it in 2019 it has aged quite well and for my personal listening pleasure why would it make a difference whether it came out in 1977 or 1973?
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two/three strongest:
Time, U&T and Brain Damage
 
two/three weaker one;
Breathe, Money and Colour.
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Probably Time for me, followed by Us and Them. Time is just a wonderful song, while the production on Us and Them is outstanding. Honorable mention to Great Gig in the Sky for having some awesome chord changes and On the Run for its experimental prowess.
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Foxprog Foxprog wrote:

It's also not a criterion for me but I if something has good production I think it's just a plus. Do you think Dark Side of the Moon would be as popular as it is IF it would sound like Ummagumma? I bet not... Which is also unfortunate because I know many that can't listen some albums because of the sound quality. And for that reason they are missing quite many masterpieces...

to be honest: it wouldn't matter to me at all.

I personally think this thing about production is typically male. most women I know don't give a damn about production; they want to hear great music that sounds alive. of course there are exceptions to this for both genders, but I think it is a pretty good rule of thumbs


I agree, it's mainly a male concern. I'm not sure why, but in my teens me and my male friends were frequently debating which album had the best production. Our female counterparts who shared our love for the music, didn't really seem to notice.

I remember being excited when I found out certain producers were going to be doing the next album by such and such a band.

The fundamental differences between men and women, generally intrigue me and make for interesting debate, but it's a topic that seems to trigger some people, and I'm not sure why.
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Originally posted by Foxprog Foxprog wrote:

Could be true, but does gender matter as all genders are equal?

however equal men and women may be, I think there are most definitely psychological differences, with pros and cons on both sides. men usually have a better sense of orientation than women, for example. women on the other hand are usually better at multitasking. of course there are exceptions from these rules too.

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I think the production of Ummagumma is perfect for the kind of music. The murkiness gives a sense of mystery.
In my opinion, an appropriate production has a great deal in making music that sounds alive.
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Could be true, but does gender matter as all genders are equal?
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Originally posted by Foxprog Foxprog wrote:

It's also not a criterion for me but I if something has good production I think it's just a plus. Do you think Dark Side of the Moon would be as popular as it is IF it would sound like Ummagumma? I bet not... Which is also unfortunate because I know many that can't listen some albums because of the sound quality. And for that reason they are missing quite many masterpieces...

to be honest: it wouldn't matter to me at all.

I personally think this thing about production is typically male. most women I know don't give a damn about production; they want to hear great music that sounds alive. of course there are exceptions to this for both genders, but I think it is a pretty good rule of thumbs


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It's also not a criterion for me but I if something has good production I think it's just a plus. Do you think Dark Side of the Moon would be as popular as it is IF it would sound like Ummagumma? I bet not... Which is also unfortunate because I know many that can't listen some albums because of the sound quality. And for that reason they are missing quite many masterpieces...
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Originally posted by Foxprog Foxprog wrote:


I must agree that the two parts of the pigs on the wing are the biggest flaw on the album. Anyhow coming to Meddle I found that album a bit boring apart from "One of these days" and the masterpiece "Echoes". The four songs between those have nothing new for me. (except the dog's singing). It feels like Beatles did better ones years ago. Ummagumma is great tho!

But in terms of a great album I also value the production. Animals mixing is top-notch as is almost all the Pink Floyd's albums. For example, comparing Animals to the two albums you mentioned. Yes I know the other one is a live album.

I think the Planet Gong album is pretty cool tho but I just really can't get into hawkwind.

Anyhow, back to DSOTM :)

production NEVER is a criterion for me; what counts is the music and only the music. it is nice if an album has a good production, but if not - so what?

and production is a double-edged sword. many albums sound sterile due to production. the albums of my own band Bald Angels were all recorded live in the studio, with no overdubs whatever. we rather have some guest musicians than using overdubs

Edited by BaldJean - July 05 2019 at 04:22


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DSOTM is a genuine groundbreaking masterpiece. As I said earlier not my top Floyd album, but probably the most important of their career, and not just in commercial terms, although you could say that it was Meddle that really broke the ground with Echoes, which was arguably the blue print for what followed on the next three albums.
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I must agree that the two parts of the pigs on the wing are the biggest flaw on the album. Anyhow coming to Meddle I found that album a bit boring apart from "One of these days" and the masterpiece "Echoes". The four songs between those have nothing new for me. (except the dog's singing). It feels like Beatles did better ones years ago. Ummagumma is great tho!

But in terms of a great album I also value the production. Animals mixing is top-notch as is almost all the Pink Floyd's albums. For example, comparing Animals to the two albums you mentioned. Yes I know the other one is a live album and can't be compared to studio album in terms of production.

I think the Planet Gong album is pretty cool tho but I just really can't get into hawkwind.

Anyhow, back to DSOTM :)


Edited by Foxprog - July 05 2019 at 04:13
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Foxprog Foxprog wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Time
Money

I'm
not a massive fan of this album although I've seen it performed live in
it's entirety and it becomes a different animal in that environment
entirely. It rocks big time and the guitar licks are some of the best of
any genre. However I will always turn towards Wish You Were Here and
Animals if I feel like listening to some Floyd.

If
I want to listen to Pink Floyd I will turn to "Ummagumma" or "Meddle",
but most definitely not to the ridiculously overrated "Animals". Had
"Animals" come out a few years earlier my opinion would be different,
but for the time it came out it was absolutely lame compared to what was
musically going on at that time.


Animals
is not vastly overrated. By looking it objectively, it's the only Floyd
album without "bad songs". The album is solid as a rock. It's also the
favourite album by many hardcore Floyd fans.

first
of all: there is no such thing as "looking at something objectively";
this only exists in your imagination. personal taste always plays a
crucial role. and "bad" is in the eye of the beholder, or rather the ear
of the listener. there are in my opinion definitely two weak tracks on
"Animals", the two parts of "Pigs on the Wing". "Meddle" or "Ummagumma"
don't have weak tracks. yes, I love "San Tropez" and "Seamus" (how
someone can NOT love that dog's singing is beyond me, but I know many
people hate that track).

second: as Friede
rightly pointed out an album has to be viewed in the context of the time
it was recorded. had "Animals" been recorded in 1972 or 1973 it would
have been great. but at the time it came out it sounded as if coming
from a bunch of BOFs who are totally oblivious to what is musically
going on around them and who have become so saturated that they can't
get their fat asses out of their armchairs anymore to really get
rocking. other artists had noticed the sign of the times and reacted;
take for example Hawkwind's "Quark, Strangeness and Charme" or "Live
Floating Anarchy" by Planet Gong which came out in the same year as
"Animals".

I know a lot of people love "Animals", but for me it is absolutely lame. in the context of time, of course


I have to react to any reference to Calvert era Hawkwind!

Quark was a ground breaking album indeed. It was a brilliant reaction to, and alliance with punk. Truly progressive. I have been obsessed with Spirit of the Age, alone, for decades! It's certainly one of my favourite lyrics of all time.

Anyhow...back to DSOTM..
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