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Alan Parsons Project vs Steely Dan
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Poll Question: Which band do you prefer?
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micky View Drop Down
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

  I think it's the polish rather than the structure that makes them sound not-rock.

I wouldn't quite agree with that Madan.  The discussion is has taken off from a purely musical standpoint.. but ignores the 2nd half of what made S.D so special and why it does connect with many prog fans.. and was the daggar in the heart to the opposition to having them added here.

what keeps them from being considered by many to be rock.. it what I mentioned...  their songwriting writing skills. That in itself has two heads. Melody... and lyrics.  Melody is what it is... but the lyrics of S.D were most CERTAINLY not rock and roll... and were highly intellectual, thought provoking and highly topical.  None of that squeeze my lemon bullsh*t... real life stuff.. like the pervent living next door who shows dirty films to your kids when you are not around.  

the biggest problem critics always had with prog... was not the music.. it was about the overintellectualism of rock which has always had its roots in adolesence, and rebellion.. using ones fists or one's dick.. not one's brain.
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I am also surprised you don't find much spontaneity in Countdown to Ecstasy (assuming since you didn't mention anything about it) which was with a 'real band' still and does sound like one to me, especially My Old School.


Actually, in my first intervention, I did mention that CTE is my second fave album (read my reviews in the DB) next to TRSWink
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

SD's tunes are extremely finely crafted (maybe too much so) that rare are the Dan tracks that feel fresh & spontaneous or even less as "immediate". Excitement is certainly not a feeling I'll feel when I listen to SD (or APP, FTM). SD thought their concept so thouroughly that any dust of improvication is automatically annihilated by their mercyless and pityless professionalism

Here is a bit about SD's studio crafting, I was looking up some things about their times at The Village Recorder and found this in an interview with Dick LaPalm, former manager at The Village, regarding "Aja,"  

"During the same recording session, the second engineer Lenise Bent, came into my office. She said, 'Dick, I have to talk to you.' She put her head down on the desk in her arms and said, 'Well-the, well-the, well-the.' I said, 'What are you doing?'

Lenise looked up and said, 'Dick, I have to get off the Aja session. They worked on the words ‘well the’ for six hours last night. It's on Home at Last, for the the line, Well the danger on the rocks is surely past. All they did was work those two words for just the right sound for hours. I really have to get off the session.'

"I said, 'Look Lenise, if you want off, that’s no problem. I’ll get another second. But it will be the biggest mistake you will ever make. You’re going to have a credit on Aja, and the album is going to be huge.' So she stayed, and to this day she thanks me as a running joke [laughs]."

The entire article is here: https://www.jazzwax.com/2011/07/how-steely-dan-got-wayne-shorter.html
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Steely Dan !!!
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time

Sorry but that doesn't really make sense. If they were good at arranging how would that make their songs stale? Confused

Anyway, for the longest time my biggest problem with Steely Dan is they seemed "stuffy" to me for lack of a better term. Kind of like to music what Woody Allen was to movies. Hey, I'm cool but you dohn't get it because you didn't go to college or read the books that intellectuals read kind of thing. In other words pretentious in their outlook and presentation if not necessarily in the final product. It always seemed like they were a rock band who wished they could play jazz and be a jazz band but wanted instead the commercial success of a  rock band and to me that seemed pretentious and off putting. It wasn't until way later when I learned to just accept them for what they are which was a band making music they wanted to which in a way was what prog was all about even though they weren't a prog band.

Funnily enough,  that reads like the typical Christgau criticism of prog rock.LOL  That said, I do agree in that I was always curious why a band that didn't seem to like rock all that much nevertheless fitted their jazz elements into a rock format.   I later learnt that while they may not have liked straight up rock much, they did like blues a lot and that's where the rock element came in. 

I also don't think going commercial is necessarily bad and it's good for commercial music when a band like Steely Dan gets involved in it.

Believe me, I was definitely not trying to sound like Robert Christgau. Jeez. Confused Anyway, I see it more of them trying to fit into pop music structure and not so much "rock" per se. I think maybe the first album is as close to regular rock as they got and it happens to be one of my favorites. Although, as I stated, I have grown to appreciate Steely Dan I do wish they had stretched out more and not stayed so close to the confines of pop music structure. I think the only exceptions were the title track to Aja and maybe some stuff from Countdown to Ecstacy. Other than that you could say they were a band who wanted to get played on the radio(and their plan worked obviously).

I was referring to the part where you called them pretentious for wanting to fit jazz into a commercial format.  That is a common complaint of prog from those critics who did not like it and Christgau was one of the most vocal.  

As for more pop than rock, other than large parts of Gaucho, I don't really agree.  Most of their songs have a riff and a guitar solo.  Other than rare exceptions like Carpenters' Goodbye To Love, how many pop songs from the 70s had a guitar solo or were so guitar oriented in any other way as Dan were?  I think it's the polish rather than the structure that makes them sound not-rock.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time

Sorry but that doesn't really make sense. If they were good at arranging how would that make their songs stale? Confused



What I meant was that it was their arrangements that made the songs sound stale, so their "knack" was in achieving this undesirable quality.  But in rethinking, it's also the way they construct their "melodies".
Peg is a perfect example of that.  Listen to the chorus.  There is no hook, no warmth, just "I'm so clever but in a cool unemotional way" doodling, so yes I am in agreement about the stuffiness you mentioned. 

I have similar criticisms of most of Paul Simon's solo work.  He really wasn't a great singer so he sang nonchalantly or spoke.  No emotion anywhere, as if emotion is a bad thing.  That came to a head on the abominable Graceland
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time

Sorry but that doesn't really make sense. If they were good at arranging how would that make their songs stale? Confused

Anyway, for the longest time my biggest problem with Steely Dan is they seemed "stuffy" to me for lack of a better term. Kind of like to music what Woody Allen was to movies. Hey, I'm cool but you dohn't get it because you didn't go to college or read the books that intellectuals read kind of thing. In other words pretentious in their outlook and presentation if not necessarily in the final product. It always seemed like they were a rock band who wished they could play jazz and be a jazz band but wanted instead the commercial success of a  rock band and to me that seemed pretentious and off putting. It wasn't until way later when I learned to just accept them for what they are which was a band making music they wanted to which in a way was what prog was all about even though they weren't a prog band.

Funnily enough,  that reads like the typical Christgau criticism of prog rock.LOL  That said, I do agree in that I was always curious why a band that didn't seem to like rock all that much nevertheless fitted their jazz elements into a rock format.   I later learnt that while they may not have liked straight up rock much, they did like blues a lot and that's where the rock element came in. 

I also don't think going commercial is necessarily bad and it's good for commercial music when a band like Steely Dan gets involved in it.

Believe me, I was definitely not trying to sound like Robert Christgau. Jeez. Confused Anyway, I see it more of them trying to fit into pop music structure and not so much "rock" per se. I think maybe the first album is as close to regular rock as they got and it happens to be one of my favorites. Although, as I stated, I have grown to appreciate Steely Dan I do wish they had stretched out more and not stayed so close to the confines of pop music structure. I think the only exceptions were the title track to Aja and maybe some stuff from Countdown to Ecstacy. Other than that you could say they were a band who wanted to get played on the radio(and their plan worked obviously).
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Strange how SD is full of talented musicianship but sound very ‘ordinary’ to me. APP maybe aren’t as technically proficient though I do like their earlier albums a lot.
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:



And yes, Charlemagne's guitar solo is the only really exciting part in their entire discography... and the reason why Royal Scam is my fave album of theirs.



Actually, there are many, many wonderful leads of theirs across their stellar run of albums in the 70s.  From Royal Scam itself, Everything you did has Carlton in fine form again.  The sax lead in Cave of Altamira is another.  Sax again rules the day in the underrated Doctor Wu.  Your Gold Teeth II from Katy Lied has another brilliant guitar lead.  Aja is just full of amazing guitar solos with the exception of two tracks (Black Cow and Deacon Blues).

I am also surprised you don't find much spontaneity in Countdown to Ecstasy (assuming since you didn't mention anything about it) which was with a 'real band' still and does sound like one to me, especially My Old School. I do like that album very much but I am also glad they didn't make it their essential direction for the subsequent albums because there was plenty other middle of the road rock (can't envisage Dan ever going down an out and out hard rock route) but there's only one band that made albums like Aja.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time

Sorry but that doesn't really make sense. If they were good at arranging how would that make their songs stale? Confused


I totally understand where Ken is getting at

SD's tunes are extremely finely crafted (maybe too much so) that rare are the Dan tracks that feel fresh & spontaneous or even less as "immediate". Excitement is certainly not a feeling I'll feel when I listen to SD (or APP, FTM). SD thought their concept so thouroughly that any dust of improvication is automatically annihilated by their mercyless and pityless professionalism

In other words, , just like Toto (another studio-only band for the major part of their relevant discography, but SD is sooooooo much superior to them), they were just too professional.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Exactly.  The core of their music is so strong that I have never bothered about the slightly commercial sound.  Just the solo of Kid Charlemagne alone is worth its weight in gold.



Mmmhhh!!!... SD's sonics are extremely commercial and IMHO was designed to be so from day 1... In some ways, SD and Toto were extremely cynical (make a fortune while not moving out of the studio and hit the road >> PS, I know SD did tour in their early days), but APP is not really much less so.

And yes, Charlemagne's guitar solo is the only really exciting part in their entire discography... and the reason why Royal Scam is my fave album of theirs.



=================


BTW, nowadays, I only own one album from either bands: Tales of EAP
At the height of my vinyl collection in the early, I owned  APP albums and only one SD album (TRS)

And if my taste & interest for APP has dwindled over the years, SD's has slightly grown as I "matured".



Edited by Sean Trane - January 19 2019 at 03:00
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Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time
It just goes to show how very subjective our experience of music is, as I find just the opposite - SD's chords and harmonies seem endlessly fresh to me, as enjoyable now as they were when I started listening to them over thirty years ago. And I must have listened to each of the first seven albums hundreds of times. Very very few bands have that quality for me.

Exactly.  The core of their music is so strong that I have never bothered about the slightly commercial sound.  Just the solo of Kid Charlemagne alone is worth its weight in gold.
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time
It just goes to show how very subjective our experience of music is, as I find just the opposite - SD's chords and harmonies seem endlessly fresh to me, as enjoyable now as they were when I started listening to them over thirty years ago. And I must have listened to each of the first seven albums hundreds of times. Very very few bands have that quality for me.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time

Sorry but that doesn't really make sense. If they were good at arranging how would that make their songs stale? Confused

Anyway, for the longest time my biggest problem with Steely Dan is they seemed "stuffy" to me for lack of a better term. Kind of like to music what Woody Allen was to movies. Hey, I'm cool but you dohn't get it because you didn't go to college or read the books that intellectuals read kind of thing. In other words pretentious in their outlook and presentation if not necessarily in the final product. It always seemed like they were a rock band who wished they could play jazz and be a jazz band but wanted instead the commercial success of a  rock band and to me that seemed pretentious and off putting. It wasn't until way later when I learned to just accept them for what they are which was a band making music they wanted to which in a way was what prog was all about even though they weren't a prog band.

Funnily enough,  that reads like the typical Christgau criticism of prog rock.LOL  That said, I do agree in that I was always curious why a band that didn't seem to like rock all that much nevertheless fitted their jazz elements into a rock format.   I later learnt that while they may not have liked straight up rock much, they did like blues a lot and that's where the rock element came in. 

I also don't think going commercial is necessarily bad and it's good for commercial music when a band like Steely Dan gets involved in it.
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time

Sorry but that doesn't really make sense. If they were good at arranging how would that make their songs stale? Confused

Anyway, for the longest time my biggest problem with Steely Dan is they seemed "stuffy" to me for lack of a better term. Kind of like to music what Woody Allen was to movies. "Hey, I'm cool but you don't get it because you didn't go to college or read the books that intellectuals read" kind of thing. In other words pretentious in their outlook and presentation if not necessarily in the final product. It always seemed like they were a rock band who wished they could play jazz and be a jazz band but wanted instead the commercial success of a  rock band and to me that seemed pretentious and off putting. It wasn't until way later when I learned to just accept them for what they are which was a band making music they wanted to make which in a way was what prog was all about even though they weren't a prog band.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 18 2019 at 21:06
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Overworked?   Yeah that's fair, though I suspect they were just so seasoned by the time they started recording together that the seamless production probably couldn't be helped.   You can't go backward.

Well, from watching the classic albums docu about Aja and reading Ian Dury's writings about the band (he loved them), I think it is FAIR to say the duo did make the musicians play it again and again and again until they got what they wanted.  Apparently, the musicians had nicknamed Fagen "Mother" for being a real pain in the whatever.  So the spontaneity does get sucked out of the final recording.  HOWEVER, I don't hear any spontaneity in APP's music either and if anything, the grooves are half-dead if not totally.  Only the melodies and Woolfson's serene delivery thereof keep the music going (consequently, some of the more questionable guest vocals suffer in comparison).  Whereas, certainly CTE, Pretzel and Royal Scam (esp the last) don't lack in grooves; Green Earrings is practically roaring to my ears.

I have discussed about music a lot with Ken and I can say he is not very fond of ironic or snide music.  In that case, you can't really relate to the very soul of Steely Dan because it's pretty much drenched in irony save maybe a Deacon Blues.  Me, I love the irony and especially the way Fagen delivers it.  Some music is meant to make you laugh, not cry.  Apparently, Fagen and Becker would be laughing their ass off all the time at the lines they came up with and it's not hard to imagine that.


Edited by rogerthat - January 18 2019 at 20:47
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^ Overworked?   Yeah that's fair, though I suspect they were just so seasoned by the time they started recording together that the seamless production probably couldn't be helped.   You can't go backward.
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APP

I don't doubt SD's talent but they seemed to have the knack of arranging that made most of their songs stale before they finished playing the first time


Edited by kenethlevine - January 18 2019 at 20:22
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Neither. That is all.
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^Thanks for sharing your opinion. Smile
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Uhhh . . . Steely Dan.



Uh indeed. Strikes me as a very odd comparison. Yeah, Dan.


I explained in the first page the similarities. I don't need to re-post that do I?

Yeah, well, even looking for bands with only that kind of tenuous link, maybe Sparks Vs Dan would have been a better poll. Though they would still be wildly different but I can at least imagine enough people caring about Kimono or Propaganda to make it a fight. I like APP by the way, but they used sessions guys to put together Floyd lite or, if you will, Division Bell before it was made. While Dan used them to make jazz rock in an accessible format. No comparison and no surprises as to why Dan would beat APP here.
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