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USAGirl View Drop Down
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Originally posted by tribalfusions tribalfusions wrote:

Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

The early Tangerine Dream albums were most definitely not pop. It would be a very interesting and weird world if the music on "Zeit" were considered to be pop.


I could post track after track of early Tangerine Dream with quite basic harmony, rhythm and melodies which would be at home in pop, particularly if the compositions were less extended in time or background music for film. New age music from the 70s perhaps one might say.
Instead of an answer:


This is pop?
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Tribal, it sounds to me like your definition of prog is classical symphonic progressive. Prog isn't defined only by myriad key and tempo changes within the space of five bars. TD's aesthetic is different. They're not fusion, they're not Zeuhl. They're Tangerine Dream. They're one of the bands that made the world safe for Teutonic and ambient electronic styles. They're very much a progressive group in that regard.




My criteria don't regard symphonic progressive any more than they do any other genre like jazz-rock, zeuhl etc. 

The point is that is if one's melodic structures come from certain source material and one's harmonic vocabulary comes from a certain place, then it can easily be 'pop' vocabulary. TD's vocabulary is a lot closer to pop in that sense while their timbres and the length and pace of the tunes are obviously not.

That is why I say that it sounds like pop music to me in its essentials where Gentle Giant, Mahavishnu, Henry Cow, Magma or many others, all different from each other, do not. It's not their timbre or pacing which make them progressive. It's the deeper structures.

I'm not interested in debating that here though; let's make a thread in the general discussion about it.
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Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

Originally posted by tribalfusions tribalfusions wrote:

Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

The early Tangerine Dream albums were most definitely not pop. It would be a very interesting and weird world if the music on "Zeit" were considered to be pop.


I could post track after track of early Tangerine Dream with quite basic harmony, rhythm and melodies which would be at home in pop, particularly if the compositions were less extended in time or background music for film. New age music from the 70s perhaps one might say.
Instead of an answer:


This is pop?


I asked you nicely not to derail the thread with this discussion and I have entertained the questions to a point. Please post it as its own topic please as it is not relevant here.

I already answered you: yes the source material in terms of harmony, rhythm etc is not out of place in pop. There's no altered scale in sight, no 7 against 15 etc things which might happen in any number of prog subgenres, not just in symphonic prog.

The timbres, the pacing and time expended in TD's music are obviously not common in pop but in fact would work well as background music for film or as new age music.

If you think that's enough to be prog, absolutely your choice and I am sure some would agree however I also think it's one of the reasons TD don't come up for most people in terms of prog like Yes or Genesis as being absolutely central to the tradition.

Now can you please respect the thread topic and create your own thread if you want to have extended discussion about this?

Thanks in advance.
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Originally posted by tribalfusions tribalfusions wrote:

Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

Originally posted by tribalfusions tribalfusions wrote:

Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

The early Tangerine Dream albums were most definitely not pop. It would be a very interesting and weird world if the music on "Zeit" were considered to be pop.


I could post track after track of early Tangerine Dream with quite basic harmony, rhythm and melodies which would be at home in pop, particularly if the compositions were less extended in time or background music for film. New age music from the 70s perhaps one might say.
Instead of an answer:


This is pop?


I asked you nicely not to derail the thread with this discussion and I have entertained the questions to a point. Please post it as its own topic please as it is not relevant here.

I already answered you: yes the source material in terms of harmony, rhythm etc is not out of place in pop. There's no altered scale in sight, no 7 against 15 etc things which might happen in any number of prog subgenres, not just in symphonic prog.

The timbres, the pacing and time expended in TD's music are obviously not common in pop but in fact would work well as background music for film or as new age music.

If you think that's enough to be prog, absolutely your choice and I am sure some would agree however I also think it's one of the reasons TD don't come up for most people in terms of prog like Yes or Genesis as being absolutely central to the tradition.

Now can you please respect the thread topic and create your own thread if you want to have extended discussion about this?



Then I am afraid I must point out to you that the source material of those bands you cite (Yes, Genesis) is not so far from pop as you claim; the harmonic material is in my opinion generally pretty basic. And I am a trained musician myself; I play about 20 different woodwind instruments and violin and viola.
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Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

Originally posted by tribalfusions tribalfusions wrote:

Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

Originally posted by tribalfusions tribalfusions wrote:

Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

The early Tangerine Dream albums were most definitely not pop. It would be a very interesting and weird world if the music on "Zeit" were considered to be pop.


I could post track after track of early Tangerine Dream with quite basic harmony, rhythm and melodies which would be at home in pop, particularly if the compositions were less extended in time or background music for film. New age music from the 70s perhaps one might say.
Instead of an answer:


This is pop?


I asked you nicely not to derail the thread with this discussion and I have entertained the questions to a point. Please post it as its own topic please as it is not relevant here.

I already answered you: yes the source material in terms of harmony, rhythm etc is not out of place in pop. There's no altered scale in sight, no 7 against 15 etc things which might happen in any number of prog subgenres, not just in symphonic prog.

The timbres, the pacing and time expended in TD's music are obviously not common in pop but in fact would work well as background music for film or as new age music.

If you think that's enough to be prog, absolutely your choice and I am sure some would agree however I also think it's one of the reasons TD don't come up for most people in terms of prog like Yes or Genesis as being absolutely central to the tradition.

Now can you please respect the thread topic and create your own thread if you want to have extended discussion about this?



Then I am afraid I must point out to you that the source material of those bands you cite (Yes, Genesis) is not so far from pop as you claim; the harmonic material is in my opinion generally pretty basic. And I am a trained musician myself; I play about 20 different woodwind instruments and violin and viola.


How many times do you have to be asked nicely not to derail the thread and to start your own?

I have no idea what a trained musician means but I train musicians myself directly in music schools and conservatories for a living, not as a hobby. Prog rock is a hobby for me but music decidedly is not.

If one has the proper 'training' and analyzes the elements I mentioned it's fairly obvious what I have in mind in regard to TD when I liken it to background film/new age music and similar to pop in another sense but again I ask you nicely to please stop discussing this here before I ask a moderator to intervene.

Again, I have already stated that although I don't see them as being very central to prog rock, they are welcome here as far as the topic was concerned.

So let's get back to the topic itself.
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USAGirl View Drop Down
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My dear sir, you have some nerve to come up with this yourself and then "nicely" ask not to derail the thread.

Though being a musician is not my primary profession music is most definitely more than a hobby for me; I write my own compositions and have had in-depth training. Fortunately I don't have to make a living with music; my primary job is extremely well paid.
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Originally posted by USAGirl USAGirl wrote:

My dear sir, you have some nerve to come up with this yourself and then "nicely" ask not to derail the thread.

Though being a musician is not my primary profession music is most definitely more than a hobby for me; I write my own compositions and have had in-depth training. Fortunately I don't have to make a living with music; my primary job is extremely well paid.


Yet AGAIN you feel the need to derail the thread. You were asked several times by the OP (myself) to drop it but you continue every time.

Like the typical internet bore, when the thread isn't about what you want to discuss and the OP himself asks you repeatedly to drop it, you still just HAVE to have your way.

How many times do you have to be asked to drop it before you get it?

I am not interested in your views on Tangerine Dream here beyond whether they should be considered one of the most popular prog bands in Germany and around the world etc. Once that was answered (and it was), there's no more need to debate how prog they are or are not here beyond the initial exchange of views.
 
This is not a thread on Tangerine Dream specifically. In fact I am specifically saying it is NOT about them so stop it.

Can someone please tell me how to contact a moderator to clean up this thread and take care of this poster?

Thanks
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tribalfusions: You could stop this easily by not responding; if you claim something here surely those who disagree can post their disagreement, and it doesn't play a role whether you're the OP for that.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

tribalfusions: You could stop this easily by not responding; if you claim something here surely those who disagree can post their disagreement, and it doesn't play a role whether you're the OP for that.


Yes and I have stopped responding to him in fact but I do not appreciate my thread being hijacked when it's clear that the point has been addressed and that it's not relevant enough to consume the whole thread as it was doing.

The disagreement was about a peripheral issue and I had already stated repeatedly that TD are prog enough for the purposes of the thread so there was no reason to keep discussing it here.

Perhaps instead of assigning blame to a new member who asked someone on a crusade to open up his own thread, you might have a word for the fellow on his crusade. That same member also took the liberty of sending me an unsolicited and insulting private message which is further indication of some issues I will leave to the moderators.

Now that we have that out of the way, it would be lovely if you had some input into the original question under discussion.



Edited by tribalfusions - October 20 2018 at 19:24
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My sister did not hi-jack the thread at all; this is merely in your imagination. To accuse her of all people of attention-seeking is plain ridiculous. She gets into contact with some of the most powerful people in the world on a regular basis in her line of work, so she definitely does not need this kind of attention.

As my sister rightly pointed out it was you who first deviated from the subject; she merely responded to your deviation.


Edited by BaldJean - October 20 2018 at 19:48


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

My sister did not hi-jack the thread at all; this is merely in your imagination. To accuse her of all people of attention-seeking is plain ridiculous. She gets into contact with some of the most powerful people in the world on a regular basis in her line of work, so she definitely does not need this kind of attention.

As my sister rightly pointed out it was you who first deviated from the subject; she merely responded to your deviation.


As if the thread needed more of this...and from that poster's sister no less.

I didn't deviate from the subject; I simply asked if people here considered TD prog which what is relevant to this thread. Once that was fairly well established, that was the end of that line of inquiry in any reasonable person's mind regardless of my own view on the band.

It wasn't an open invitation for endless debate on that topic and I suggested repeatedly that if that was of such interest, then a thread should be opened to discuss that.

As for your assertion that having a position which offers contact with powerful people precludes poor behavior in some other environment, it's a patently illogical point.

One could just as easily argue the opposite; that a person habituated to such an environment internalizes certain behaviors and sublimates certain resentments etc. And such a person feels a compulsion to send unsolicited insulting private messages. 

I suppose it's too much to ask that we skip this absurd discussion entirely and post about the question posed originally?



 
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Let's see
Luxembourg -
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^LOL!
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if you make unsubstantial claims about a band you should expect that people react to that. I totally agree with you about certain things in the music of TD, to quote you: "There's no altered scale in sight, no 7 against 15 etc things which might happen in any number of prog subgenres, not just in symphonic prog."

however, what you are doing here is the musical equivalent of trying to measure a length with a scale. early Tangerine Dream, especially the albums "Alpha Centauri", "Atem" and "Zeit", are not about scales, rhythms or melodies, and it is not just the tempo that is different; they are about sounds, atmosphere and electronic experiments. and these have nothing to do with pop at all


Edited by BaldJean - October 21 2018 at 03:59


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Originally posted by tribalfusions tribalfusions wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Tribal, it sounds to me like your definition of prog is classical symphonic progressive. Prog isn't defined only by myriad key and tempo changes within the space of five bars. TD's aesthetic is different. They're not fusion, they're not Zeuhl. They're Tangerine Dream. They're one of the bands that made the world safe for Teutonic and ambient electronic styles. They're very much a progressive group in that regard.




My criteria don't regard symphonic progressive any more than they do any other genre like jazz-rock, zeuhl etc. 

The point is that is if one's melodic structures come from certain source material and one's harmonic vocabulary comes from a certain place, then it can easily be 'pop' vocabulary. TD's vocabulary is a lot closer to pop in that sense while their timbres and the length and pace of the tunes are obviously not.

That is why I say that it sounds like pop music to me in its essentials where Gentle Giant, Mahavishnu, Henry Cow, Magma or many others, all different from each other, do not. It's not their timbre or pacing which make them progressive. It's the deeper structures.

I'm not interested in debating that here though; let's make a thread in the general discussion about it.


You really haven't heard the diverse spectrum that Tangerine Dream has recorded. Check out "Electronic Meditation" for example. Pure Krautrock all the way through. True, TD has implemented pop hooks here and there and not considered prog rock per se but certainly has proven itself within that context as well albeit on rare occasions. Progressive electronic is a completely different beast that is included here for the sheer influence it had on the prog universe. Therefore it gets kind of a special category. It's progressive most of the time, just not rock all of the time.

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From Portuguese bands on PA, I'd say Moonspell and Linda Martini. The first certainly plays in other countries while I don't think the later has any popularity outside Portugal.
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Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

From Portuguese bands on PA, I'd say Moonspell and Linda Martini. The first certainly plays in other countries while I don't think the later has any popularity outside Portugal.


Thanks very much! Do any other Portuguese prog bands play much outside Portugal? Any prog metal perhaps? I don't know much about prog in Portugal I confess.

Would you like to try to guess the equivalents for Spain as well?
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^ There's not much to know really. Prog Metal bands don't have many oportunities to play here already, even though Dream Theater are pretty popular. I follow closely the Psychedelic Rock scene though and some bands do European tours. Black Bombaim is the only I recall having played in the US.

I have no idea but I guess Prog is as unpopular as it is here.
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Does anyone have any more suggestions from different places?
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Peru - Flor De Loto
Chile - R-U Kaiser
Siberia - Pika Pika Teart
Uzbekistan - FromUZ
Poland - Lizard
Belgium - Quantum Fantay
Switzerland - Sonar
Romania - Tunderground
Serbia - Tripcycle
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