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Steely Dan vs Supertramp
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Poll Question: Which S band do you prefer? Steely Dan or Supertramp?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
27 [42.19%]
29 [45.31%]
4 [6.25%]
4 [6.25%]
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Jeffro View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

What ignorantly narrow views of Rush lyrics!

By limiting Peart to expressions of high school loserhood, you demonstrate ignorance of not only the depth, but also the breadth of his subject matter. Nobody, with the possible exception of Ian Anderson in Aqualung, has matched his treatises on the limits and harms of organized religion. No one else has so perfectly distilled the concept of fear itself and the many ways it manifests. Then you've got his very unique and thoughtful treatment of man's entry into the atomic age, and his positively brilliant use of the trees as a metaphor for affirmative action. All this, and soooooo much more. And within any given topic area, few can turn a phrase like he does.


Like him or not, theres mo denying bes got a far broader range of topic areas than most, and saying otherwise is just professed ignorance that casts doubt on any other analysis you might throw his way.

Wow, sycophant much? I've been a Rush fan since about 1980. They are my favorite band but I'm not sure I've ever found myself at this level of idolatry. 

Peart isn't any better or worse than any other rock lyricist. I'd certainly rather have his lyrics than the tired old typical rock lyrics about cars, getting drunk, and trashing hotel rooms, etc, etc. 

He's well read and he speaks intelligently. He also enjoys (well, enjoyed) writing lyrics. He does have a certain flair and can turn a phrase but I seriously can't put him on the pedestal that you're putting him on. 
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By the way, how in the hell did this morph into a Rush thread? LOL
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In this match up, and in this forum, 'tramp are the prog-master generals competing against primarily a hip bar band. No contest, really.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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^ Seems like there is a contest Wink
New album!
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
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Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

If you think a song lyric should aspire to the condition of a treatise in the first place then I think you've already gone hopelessly wrong.

It doesn't have to.  It's just one more capability a great lyricist can have in his quiver.  I mentioned this as one of Peart's many capabilities to point out that his writing is so much broader than the very narrow accusation levied against him.  
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You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  
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Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.

Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  
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Fischman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

What ignorantly narrow views of Rush lyrics!

By limiting Peart to expressions of high school loserhood, you demonstrate ignorance of not only the depth, but also the breadth of his subject matter. Nobody, with the possible exception of Ian Anderson in Aqualung, has matched his treatises on the limits and harms of organized religion. No one else has so perfectly distilled the concept of fear itself and the many ways it manifests. Then you've got his very unique and thoughtful treatment of man's entry into the atomic age, and his positively brilliant use of the trees as a metaphor for affirmative action. All this, and soooooo much more. And within any given topic area, few can turn a phrase like he does.


Like him or not, theres mo denying bes got a far broader range of topic areas than most, and saying otherwise is just professed ignorance that casts doubt on any other analysis you might throw his way.

Wow, sycophant much? I've been a Rush fan since about 1980. They are my favorite band but I'm not sure I've ever found myself at this level of idolatry. 

Peart isn't any better or worse than any other rock lyricist. I'd certainly rather have his lyrics than the tired old typical rock lyrics about cars, getting drunk, and trashing hotel rooms, etc, etc. 

He's well read and he speaks intelligently. He also enjoys (well, enjoyed) writing lyrics. He does have a certain flair and can turn a phrase but I seriously can't put him on the pedestal that you're putting him on. 

I dunno,' that sounds like pretty high praise.  

And nothing I said is false.  He was capable of, and did all those things.  If someone doesn't react positively, that's fine, and quite frankly, I don't expect anyone to react as positively as I do, but it doesn't take away from what he has accomplished with his pen, as well as his sticks (where he is undeniably at the top of the heap, even often grudgingly acknowledged by his haters).

And this is not blind idolatry.  Sycophant?  Please.  I did acknowledge that he's dropped some stinkers along the way.  But again, that's no worse than any other lyricist.  
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Fischman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

By the way, how in the hell did this morph into a Rush thread? LOL

Because I was praising the intelligence of the Dan's lyrics, and likened that to Rush.  Then all the haters crawled out of the woodwork. 
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.
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Jenny Lee is a woman and Neil Pearl is her wife !

Donald F.
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.

On one hand you say I put Peart on a pedestal and accuse me of blind idolatry, but in the same post you say you doubt I've actually followed his career.  

????   

This makes no sense.If I'm some kind of blind fanatic, how is it I wouldn't follow his career?  Isn't that what fanatics do?  

And where did you get the idea I don't know where that particular lyric comes from?  ftr, that line is rather pointless, but overall, that song is pretty damn good.  As is Freewill which, far from being verbose, covers religion, determinism, and wraps up with a resolution in a more rational explanation for the subject at hand.  All in three short four line verses with a chorus thrown in between.  It's absolutely classic.  

You're also confusing cause and effect.  You seem to think I praise his lyrics because I'm a fan when in reality I'm a fan because I like his lyrics (as well as every other aspect of the group).  I was originally drawn to Rush because of the music, and really didn't think of the lyrics much (just like most prog)  It wasn't until recently, after three plus decades of listening to Rush, that I started to see the greatness in the lyrics as well.  That's probably while I'm so passionate about it now; despite being a longtime fan, the greatness of the lyrics feels like a recent revelation to me.  
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Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.

On one hand you say I put Peart on a pedestal and accuse me of blind idolatry, but in the same post you say you doubt I've actually followed his career.  

????   

This makes no sense.If I'm some kind of blind fanatic, how is it I wouldn't follow his career?  Isn't that what fanatics do?  

And where did you get the idea I don't know where that particular lyric comes from?  ftr, that line is rather pointless, but overall, that song is pretty damn good.  As is Freewill which, far from being verbose, covers religion, determinism, and wraps up with a resolution in a more rational explanation for the subject at hand.  All in three short four line verses with a chorus thrown in between.  It's absolutely classic.  

You're also confusing cause and effect.  You seem to think I praise his lyrics because I'm a fan when in reality I'm a fan because I like his lyrics (as well as every other aspect of the group).  I was originally drawn to Rush because of the music, and really didn't think of the lyrics much (just like most prog)  It wasn't until recently, after three plus decades of listening to Rush, that I started to see the greatness in the lyrics as well.  That's probably while I'm so passionate about it now; despite being a longtime fan, the greatness of the lyrics feels like a recent revelation to me.  



That is the very definition of liking and praising lyrics because you like the band.  If you did not find anything of note in the lyrics early on when you didn't know how much you were going to like Rush, then they cannot be everything that you claim to be. With repeated exposure, one can always find reasons to like something, if nothing else, to justify the habit. My case rests.
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Fischman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Fischman Fischman wrote:

You can cherry pick a bad line from any lyricist at all.  I don't know a one who hasn't penned a clunker once in a while.  




Oh, believe me I could fill up enough such lines for several posts row upon row. More than bad, it is just banal and doesn't square with the exalted intelligence that his fanboys credit him for. I can even believe that he might indeed be very intelligent (seeing as a lot of intelligent people do fall for Ayn Rand) but just clumsy and verbose when he writes lyrics. As Mascodagama put it, the very fact that you think calling his lyrics as approaching a treatise is compliment indicates that you have the wrong idea about lyrics.


Well see there, you've just discredited yourself further. Verbose?  Peart is often one of the most succinct lyricists ever.  He is the master of the meaningful one-liner.   

And while I would add that intelligent people don't "fall for" Ayn Rand, but rather they understand the truth and wisdom she has to offer, even if what you say is true, it still only further confirms your unjustifiably narrow view of him.  He broadened his horizons beyond Rand and Objectivism very early in his career.  As early as A Farewell to Kings (1977), with the introduction of "Closer to the Heart," you could see he was moving beyond a much more holistic philosophical view. That evolution would continue throughout his career, and anybody who tracks his songs from album to album and actually pays attention, can see the growth of both the person and the artist.  


You and I clearly have a different view of verbosity. I think his lyrics for Freewill for instance take too long to, again, make a banal point. And yes I have followed Rush's career and I wonder if you have because you do not seem aware that the line about Middle West I quoted earlier was from The Way The Wind Blows on Snakes & Arrows. I have a bunch of their CDs and love their music. Not my problem if you chose to put Peart on a lofty pedestal which only his fanatics think he deserves.

On one hand you say I put Peart on a pedestal and accuse me of blind idolatry, but in the same post you say you doubt I've actually followed his career.  

????   

This makes no sense.If I'm some kind of blind fanatic, how is it I wouldn't follow his career?  Isn't that what fanatics do?  

And where did you get the idea I don't know where that particular lyric comes from?  ftr, that line is rather pointless, but overall, that song is pretty damn good.  As is Freewill which, far from being verbose, covers religion, determinism, and wraps up with a resolution in a more rational explanation for the subject at hand.  All in three short four line verses with a chorus thrown in between.  It's absolutely classic.  

You're also confusing cause and effect.  You seem to think I praise his lyrics because I'm a fan when in reality I'm a fan because I like his lyrics (as well as every other aspect of the group).  I was originally drawn to Rush because of the music, and really didn't think of the lyrics much (just like most prog)  It wasn't until recently, after three plus decades of listening to Rush, that I started to see the greatness in the lyrics as well.  That's probably while I'm so passionate about it now; despite being a longtime fan, the greatness of the lyrics feels like a recent revelation to me.  



That is the very definition of liking and praising lyrics because you like the band.  If you did not find anything of note in the lyrics early on when you didn't know how much you were going to like Rush, then they cannot be everything that you claim to be. With repeated exposure, one can always find reasons to like something, if nothing else, to justify the habit. My case rests.

Naw, you're still not getting it.  When I first discovered prog, it was all about the music.  I never really cared about lyrics.  I just followed the virtuosity of the instrumentalists and the interplay of the parts into an intricate musical whole.  They could have been singing the owners manual to a '87 Ford Fiesta and it wouldn't have mattered.  I began to appreciate the lyrics as the result of expanding my musical horizons to include paying attention to the words as well as the sounds.

Your case is blown by the fact that there are many other groups I was a big fan of, and remain a big fan of, but didn't develop a similar impression for their lyrics.  Black Sabbath, for instance, especially the Dio era.  I love me some Heaven and Hell/Mob Rules.  Two of my all time favorite albums to listen to.  They were the day they came out and they remain so to this day.  But I don't find the same level of sophistication and intellectual appreciation for their lyrics as I do Rush's.  

So no, your conclusion that I only praise the lyrics because I like the group is flawed... and false.  
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I never said you would like the lyrics of EVERY band you are fond of. Black Sabbath have never been accused of being intellectual but Rush have this image of sophistication (your word, not mine) to live up to. Hence Rush fanboys feel compelled to defend Peart lyrics. There is a difference between sophistication and technicality. Rush is technical, not sophisticated.
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I'll just say that I like the first Supertramp album, and the second Steely disc (Countdown to Ecstasy). The Supertramp album is much more prog though, and fitting my tastes.
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