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Most Overrated Band of the 'Big Six'
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Poll Question: Who is the most overrated band of the 'Big Six'?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
73 [35.96%]
26 [12.81%]
28 [13.79%]
20 [9.85%]
37 [18.23%]
19 [9.36%]
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Larkstongue41 View Drop Down
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Awww man, don't make me feel bad.

I still hold my stance although you've just made your point a whole lot clearer. The way you worded it at first sounded like absolute snobbery. I still believe that a person completely unaware of a certain musical genre or tradition can bring criticism that is just as valid as any of your average fanatic. I'd even go as far as saying that the 'unexposed' person (given he/she is endowed with proper critical thinking) could have more significant insight into a musical piece than someone who is used to hearing similar things.
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Originally posted by Larkstongue41 Larkstongue41 wrote:

Awww man, don't make me feel bad.

I still hold my stance although you've just made your point a whole lot clearer. The way you worded it at first sounded like absolute snobbery. I still believe that a person completely unaware of a certain musical genre or tradition can bring criticism that is just as valid as any of your average fanatic. I'd even go as far as saying that the 'unexposed' person (given he/she is endowed with proper critical thinking) could have more significant insight into a musical piece than someone who is used to hearing similar things.



How can someone who is not versed in a genre have more insight into the genre than someone who is a fan? Sorry but that makes no sense. Did you not read my art analogy? Do I have to keep repeating myself? So my total lack of understanding of rap means that my criticism of rap is just as valid as someone who spends a lot of time listening to rap and knows way more about it then I do?



Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 19 2018 at 23:22
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Larkstongue41 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

How can someone who is not versed in a genre have more insight into the genre than someone who is a fan? 
Because they are free of expectation.

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Did you not read my art analogy? Do I have to keep repeating myself?
Please don't start this. I never intented this to get nasty and I did my possible best to prevent it from becoming so. I did read your analogy. You don't have to an art teacher to 'understand' let alone appreciate art. You just have to put in a little intellectual effort.

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

So my total lack of understanding of rap means that my criticism of rap is just as valid as someone who spends a lot of time listening to rap and knows way more about it then I do?
I did not say this was true universally but only in particular cases with people who have proper critical thinking. And how can you not understand rap unless it's in a foreign language? Same with all music and all forms of art I would argue. You have to feel it not understand it.
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You said: "I never intented this to get nasty and I did my possible best to prevent it from becoming so." 

Yet, you later said: And not snobbery? Quick copy-paste to remind you the way you worded it: "Yes and Genesis are mocked but not so much on here only among non prog heads who don't know any better". If that's not snobbery then I don't know what is."


Trying to rub my nose in something(especially by highlighting and underlining certain words) to try to make a point sounds pretty nasty to me.

But yeah they don't know prog so they shouldn't judge it. Nothing snobby about that. Just stating my opinion. It's only your perception that I was being snobby but really I wasn't because it wasn't meany to make anyone seem superior just that some people judge without knowing what they are judging. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 20 2018 at 00:03
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Larkstongue41 View Drop Down
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I deleted this post because you edited yours to remove your remark before I posted. I'm not trying to make you look bad just pointing out that you dismissing my comment (which you edited out before I posted, hence why I deleted) was absurd. Of course I'm trying to make a point why are we arguing otherwise? Nothing mean-spirited about that.

Why would someone who doesn't know prog not be able to fairly judge a prog band? I can't wrap my brain around that. I'm sure thousands of music academics who never heard prog before could analyse, criticize and judge our most beloved prog pieces in way more depth and precision than any of this site's most skillful and eloquent reviewers could do.
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Well, I think some of your comments were absurd also so I guess we are even. 

How about if we just agree to disagree?




Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 20 2018 at 00:44
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Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Um, if we’re eliminating ELP from the big six pedestal because they’ve become annoying to people, can we get a less annoying group than Gentle Giant to replace them?

No! Gentle Giant x 6 for you! LOL Wink

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now that is a hanging slider over the heart of the plate....

the big 6 really is a PA's creature.. there really was a big 3 so those get zapped from any serious 'overrated' consideration

Yes, K.C., ELP... the full measure there. They created prog, popularized it and did so to the point that even today people who know music  who don't really know prog.. know those bands as prog, and influence it still today. Those 3 are on the Mount Rushmore of prog. The only possible way one could call them overrated is if one doesn't like them.. well whoopy f**king do if you don't..  if you call something overratd simply because you don't like it it means you have like ..zero.. analytical objective skills. 

but we are talking about 6....so that leaves 3... of one IS overrated in comparison to the others...

lets look at Floyd ...  they are stuck in the big 6.. but do they really belong? No they really don't..  Floyd had a prog phase.. a very short period in the early 70's but never really have been considered by most anyone to be a prog band. So calling them a big 6 prog band is sort of silly. Floyd were great, and yes greater overall on the Mount Rushmore of rock music, because they were more than a mere prog band. So no... they are not overrated...  just misplaced in the pantheon of prog greats.

Dull are rather similar in that some here consider them a prog band.. but Dull were so much more than a mere prog band, and good thing since much of their prog output simply isn't very good but that is besides the point, Dull even more so than Floyd but not quite to the success of Floyd simply don't belong in a conversation of prog greats because of the nature of what made them .. TULL... they had their own sound, and style that really no one ever touched that made them among the greatest of rock groups.. but at the same time completely out of place when discussing prog greats.

so yeah that leaves one.. and our runaway winner for most overrated band of the big 6, and in fact runnaway winner for perhaps the most overrated prog band EVER hahah. 

Leaving out Dull and Floyd.. Genesis had no realstic or IMO debatable measure any of the intangibles the other 3 had. They did not create prog, popularize it, nor are associated with it.. yet in the eyes of many here they are on the same level (or higher) as the other 3.  In my eyes.. that is a textbook example of a band being overrated by fans who love their music and because of that think they belong in the same conversation as the true prog greats.. hey I love Osanna.. but would never claim they beong on the same level as King Crimson or 2nd division VDGG (even though they smoke them haha)
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very happy.. especially after a jalapeño and pepperoni pizza and 3 Calli craft 9.0 beers after my morning start of 2 plain jane Guinness Extra Stouts (though I didn't start till 9:30am) hahah

I love f**king with you lesser mortals...

oh really?  wanna swim with the sharks... show you have some teeth.

Yes I am happy in my place...   so where you sage of prog who has in my eyes no proven track record of any knowledge of prog or music... am I wrong. My logic is there..  where is it wrong. 

Let's see if you have a brain to match the mouth...
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

now that is a hanging slider over the heart of the plate....

the big 6 really is a PA's creature.. there really was a big 3 so those get zapped from any serious 'overrated' consideration

Yes, K.C., ELP... the full measure there. They created prog, popularized it and did so to the point that even today people who know music  who don't really know prog.. know those bands as prog, and influence it still today. Those 3 are on the Mount Rushmore of prog. The only possible way one could call them overrated is if one doesn't like them.. well whoopy f**king do if you don't..  if you call something overratd simply because you don't like it it means you have like ..zero.. analytical objective skills. 

but we are talking about 6....so that leaves 3... of one IS overrated in comparison to the others...

lets look at Floyd ...  they are stuck in the big 6.. but do they really belong? No they really don't..  Floyd had a prog phase.. a very short period in the early 70's but never really have been considered by most anyone to be a prog band. So calling them a big 6 prog band is sort of silly. Floyd were great, and yes greater overall on the Mount Rushmore of rock music, because they were more than a mere prog band. So no... they are not overrated...  just misplaced in the pantheon of prog greats.

Dull are rather similar in that some here consider them a prog band.. but Dull were so much more than a mere prog band, and good thing since much of their prog output simply isn't very good but that is besides the point, Dull even more so than Floyd but not quite to the success of Floyd simply don't belong in a conversation of prog greats because of the nature of what made them .. TULL... they had their own sound, and style that really no one ever touched that made them among the greatest of rock groups.. but at the same time completely out of place when discussing prog greats.

so yeah that leaves one.. and our runaway winner for most overrated band of the big 6, and in fact runnaway winner for perhaps the most overrated prog band EVER hahah. 

Leaving out Dull and Floyd.. Genesis had no realstic or IMO debatable measure any of the intangibles the other 3 had. They did not create prog, popularize it, nor are associated with it.. yet in the eyes of many here they are on the same level (or higher) as the other 3.  In my eyes.. that is a textbook example of a band being overrated by fans who love their music and because of that think they belong in the same conversation as the true prog greats.. hey I love Osanna.. but would never claim they beong on the same level as King Crimson or 2nd division VDGG (even though they smoke them haha)


Still, for me the most undisputable Big something would still be the sommon big 6, but given your reasoning I could accept leaving Floyd and Tull out. Still, I can easily think of a big 4 with Genesis. I guess that would be the categories, first the big 3 (as you listed). If you want a bit more, go for the big 4. And if you want it more complete, go for the big 6... any of those 3 versions are fairly objective, I think. If you want more bands, it goes into very subjective thinking. Now, to make it easier to be objective, one must think of it as big 6 of Britain, otherwise Rush will always have supporters.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Um, if we’re eliminating ELP from the big six pedestal because they’ve become annoying to people, can we get a less annoying group than Gentle Giant to replace them?


You mean like Magma or Van der Graaf Generator? LOL
Yeah, I’m to GG as Micky is to Genesis, but Magma actually might be worse, from my limited knowledge of their output. I don’t see how anyone can speak of ELP as maligned on PA and ignore how maligned VdGG is. I can take or leave VdGG. I don’t see any real contenders to replace ELP. Eliminate them and reduce the number. Or call them too unpopular and elevate Focus, and band no one really hates. At least they have some really quality guitar work. I’m tired of bands like VdGG and GG seriously lacking in guitar work. ELP at least has a credible amount of acoustic playing from Lake.




Edited by HackettFan - April 21 2018 at 14:31
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Well, that's what makes this place so great. We can all have our own opinions and while we don't have to share the opinions of others(no matter how warped they may seem to us)we all live in our own little bubble and get to hear the opinions of others(sometimes whether we like it or not). Saying Genesis were never prog though I find particularly interesting. To me that's like saying Yes, King Crimson, ELP and any other band who has received the prog label not prog. Then again like I said we are all entitled to our opinions. :P 

I don't like all six of these bands equally but I think they are all important. PF would get my vote if only because too many people know about(and like them)at the expense of the others. IN other words there's probably plenty of younger folks out there who love PF and own all their albums but have no f****ng clue who Yes are. 
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One thing I've noticed, is a few of the vets here insist Genesis isn't worthy of a top 4 position; I recall someone specifically mentioning them "still playing fairgrounds and the like" during the Foxtrot tour, etc.

Does anyone have any legit insight on this? I can see Floyd being on the fence, but Genesis not being worthy? Really?

Not even personally offended, more like genuinely curious! The big 3 make total logical sense; but no Genesis at #4?

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I of course also have really strong opinions what is great in prog and also commonly in music and what´s not, but I really try to avoid mixing my opinions and historical facts.
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Based on the PA rating of the artist's highest rated studio album, the current top 54 artists are:

01: Yes
02: Genesis
03: Jethro Tull
04: Pink Floyd
05: King Crimson
06: Van Der Graaf Generator
07: Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM)
08: Rush
09: Camel
10: Wobbler
11: Änglagård
12: Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso
13: Gentle Giant
14: Miles Davis
15: Harmonium
16: Frank Zappa
17: Mahavishnu Orchestra
18: Supertramp
19: Opeth
20: Mike Oldfield
21: Steven Wilson
22: Renaissance
23: Dream Theater
24: Magma
25: Bacamarte
26: Peter Hammill
27: Museo Rosenbach
28: Caravan
29: Robert Wyatt
30: Riverside
31: Porcupine Tree
32: Emerson Lake & Palmer
33: Hatfield And The North
34: Khan
35: Billy Cobham
36: Focus
37: Tangerine Dream
38: IQ
39: Area
40: Marillion
41: Return To Forever
42: Gong
43: Bubu
44: Steve Hackett
45: Queensrÿche
46: Pain Of Salvation
47: Le Orme
48: Tool
49: Henry Cow
50: Al Di Meola
51: Kansas
52: The Soft Machine
53: Santana
54: Birds And Buildings

 

 



Edited by I prophesy disaster - April 22 2018 at 14:35
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Interesting...based on that criteria ELP ranks 34.   
So again the question is exactly what criteria is being used to create a 'big 6' list...? Popularity with the music fans....sales....critics ratings...?
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Interesting...based on that criteria ELP ranks 34.   
So again the question is exactly what criteria is being used to create a 'big 6' list...? Popularity with the music fans....sales....critics ratings...?

Certainly not on PA review ratings, evidently. Some of the ratings are so skewed as to be laughable.
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I did a brief net search and one person said it was coined by Jerry Lucky in his book Progressive Rock Files and another said he saw it in 2002 by Gordon in a new s group.... In one of them, on the newsgroup (rec.music.progressive), "Gordon (mailto:[email protected])" clarifies the situation for us, as he saw it in December 2002:

The Big Six of British progressive rock are ELP, Genesis, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Pink Floyd and Yes. This rating has nothing to do with the quality of their music. Certainly Camel, Gentle Giant, Renaissance and VDGG, for example, are just as good. The Big Six title is for those bands that've had the most commercial success, the most influence and for shear [sic] longevity.
"
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Edited by dr wu23 - April 22 2018 at 15:28
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IMO Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull are super overrated. ELP is slightly overrated, and Yes, Genesis, and King Crimson 100% deserve their spots.

My big 6:
-Yes
-Genesis
-King Crimson
-Gentle Giant
-Van Der Graaf Generator
-Banco del Mutuo Soccorso (or maybe PFM/Magma)
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