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Topic ClosedRussian chemical attack on UK

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Vompatti View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 11:39
I would assume that you would learn more comparing a dictator and a nun than a dictator and another dictator because in the former case the similarities would probably be less obvious.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 11:59
I like that Vomps! There is intelligent life on planet prog after all! Or at least very deep thinking. LOL

Edited by SteveG - April 09 2018 at 11:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 12:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

 if this is your basis of judging people I am not surprised you put figures like Stalin, Hitler and Putin into one category

(micky): he...he...
Your're right jean, I should have placed Adolf Hitler in a category with Santa Claus and Little Richard.

if rhetorical figures like ridiculous hyperbole is all you can come you can come up with in an historical discussion you certainly don't impress me and can''t expect me to take anything you say seriously.

your claim is that Putin and Hitler share several important character traits. well, then why don't you name these traits instead of behaving like a court jester? I will then be able to tell you where I agree and where I disagree with you, and we can have a serious debate. but I won't try to get into a serious debate with a court jester


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 12:33
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I like that Vomps! There is intelligent life on planet prog after all! Or at least very deep thinking. LOL
What was your original point with this comparison anyways? That they were equally evil? Sure, I guess if everyone would put up their own scales of overall evilness, combining all the facts they now about Hitler and Stalin they would both come out on a lonely level where they're closer to eachother than to the average leader. But that's not really a comparison, just a rather random semi-fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 13:59
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

 if this is your basis of judging people I am not surprised you put figures like Stalin, Hitler and Putin into one category

(micky): he...he...
Your're right jean, I should have placed Adolf Hitler in a category with Santa Claus and Little Richard.

if rhetorical figures like ridiculous hyperbole is all you can come you can come up with in an historical discussion you certainly don't impress me and can''t expect me to take anything you say seriously.

your claim is that Putin and Hitler share several important character traits. well, then why don't you name these traits instead of behaving like a court jester? I will then be able to tell you where I agree and where I disagree with you, and we can have a serious debate. but I won't try to get into a serious debate with a court jester
Now we're getting somewhere as we've finally gotten over you and your prof. and returned to the topic. Let's start again. Out of the following persons please pick the one that you feel doesn't fit in with the rest in the group starting with A) Hitler B) Putin C) George W. Bush D) Milosevic or E) Trump. And please state why.

Edited by SteveG - April 09 2018 at 14:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 15:03
what kind of evasive tactics is this? I asked you to list the character traits you claim Hitler and Putin share so I can either agree or disagree about them, and instead you come up with a parlor game and give me a list of historical figures to pick the odd one out from and claim that this way we are back to the topic? you still sound like a court jester to me


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 15:10
No evasion. I know that you forgot, but this was the was the simple question I asked you to begin with before you drug your old prof. into the mix and evaded  it. There was no right answer. There was no wrong answer. It was only your opinion that I tried to elicit.

And at this point, I no longer want it. Goodnight jean.


Edited by SteveG - April 09 2018 at 15:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 15:35
a nice way to discuss history: making wild claims like Putin=Hitler and when asked to back them up get miffed and end the discussion. well, I certainly don't need to argue on this level. so goodnight, Steve


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 16:59
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a nice way to discuss history: making wild claims like Putin=Hitler and when asked to back them up get miffed and end the discussion. well, I certainly don't need to argue on this level. so goodnight, Steve

I don't think a comparative analysis of Putin = Hitler is unfounded or so far off base as to get your professor's underwear in a bind. They share much the same agenda: nationalism, jingosim, antisemitism, enriching an oligarchic set of insiders, annexing regions of other countries through dubious methods, assassinating enemies of their regimes, imprisoning protesters, rigging national elections, banning certain religions.

The two may not be kissing cousins ideologically, but they share many of the same modus operandi, don't you think?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 17:34
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a nice way to discuss history: making wild claims like Putin=Hitler and when asked to back them up get miffed and end the discussion. well, I certainly don't need to argue on this level. so goodnight, Steve

I don't think a comparative analysis of Putin = Hitler is unfounded or so far off base as to get your professor's underwear in a bind. They share much the same agenda: nationalism, jingosim, antisemitism, enriching an oligarchic set of insiders, annexing regions of other countries through dubious methods, assassinating enemies of their regimes, imprisoning protesters, rigging national elections, banning certain religions.

The two may not be kissing cousins ideologically, but they share many of the same modus operandi, don't you think?

these are all traits of dictators anywhere, with minor qualifications like antisemitism replaced by anti-any-other-ethnic-group and banning certain religions replaced with banning certain belief systems. I certainly see Putin as a dictator.

but Hitler is responsible for one of the biggest genocides ever, and that's certainly what most people immediately associate with his name. and that's why I won't throw the two together in the same group


Edited by BaldJean - April 09 2018 at 17:44


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 17:59
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a nice way to discuss history: making wild claims like Putin=Hitler and when asked to back them up get miffed and end the discussion. well, I certainly don't need to argue on this level. so goodnight, Steve

I don't think a comparative analysis of Putin = Hitler is unfounded or so far off base as to get your professor's underwear in a bind. They share much the same agenda: nationalism, jingosim, antisemitism, enriching an oligarchic set of insiders, annexing regions of other countries through dubious methods, assassinating enemies of their regimes, imprisoning protesters, rigging national elections, banning certain religions.

The two may not be kissing cousins ideologically, but they share many of the same modus operandi, don't you think?

these are all traits of dictators anywhere, with minor qualifications like antisemitism replaced by anti-any-other-ethnic-group and banning certain religions replaced with banning certain belief systems. I certainly see Putin as a dictator.

but Hitler is responsible for one of the biggest genocides ever, and that's certainly what most people immediately associate with his name. and that's why I won't throw the two together in the same group
  
Yes, they do share traits of any other run-of-the-mill dictators, and Hitler definitely wins the genocide round (although I do believe Stalin and Mao beat Adolf handily in that category), but another trait that Putin and Hitler share that is quite unlike any average tin-horn dictator is their large scale propaganda and disinformation programs on both a national and international scale. I would say Putin has beaten Adolf in that category, and yet one is very reminiscent of the other.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 18:29
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a nice way to discuss history: making wild claims like Putin=Hitler and when asked to back them up get miffed and end the discussion. well, I certainly don't need to argue on this level. so goodnight, Steve

I don't think a comparative analysis of Putin = Hitler is unfounded or so far off base as to get your professor's underwear in a bind. They share much the same agenda: nationalism, jingosim, antisemitism, enriching an oligarchic set of insiders, annexing regions of other countries through dubious methods, assassinating enemies of their regimes, imprisoning protesters, rigging national elections, banning certain religions.

The two may not be kissing cousins ideologically, but they share many of the same modus operandi, don't you think?

these are all traits of dictators anywhere, with minor qualifications like antisemitism replaced by anti-any-other-ethnic-group and banning certain religions replaced with banning certain belief systems. I certainly see Putin as a dictator.

but Hitler is responsible for one of the biggest genocides ever, and that's certainly what most people immediately associate with his name. and that's why I won't throw the two together in the same group
  
Yes, they do share traits of any other run-of-the-mill dictators, and Hitler definitely wins the genocide round (although I do believe Stalin and Mao beat Adolf handily in that category), but another trait that Putin and Hitler share that is quite unlike any average tin-horn dictator is their large scale propaganda and disinformation programs on both a national and international scale. I would say Putin has beaten Adolf in that category, and yet one is very reminiscent of the other.

I disagree. large scale propaganda is something no dictatorship would get along without. there are for example still some old people in Russia who talk of Stalin as "Father Stalin". or think of the almost religious devotion many Cuban people had for Fidel Castro.

international propaganda only works when the nation you represent has some weight to throw around, so this is something I would not give every dictator. which does not mean that attempts at this have not been tried by dictators of "lesser" countries (the "lesser" is of course only meant to refer to the weight these counties have to throw around internationally)


Edited by BaldJean - April 09 2018 at 20:46


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 18:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There was no right answer. There was no wrong answer. 

oh come on Steve. Of course there was a right answer.. and 4 wrong answers as those would have insinuated that Trump through his glorious 22/7 twitter rage ranting (as well as  a tax cut Thumbs UpLOL) has done anything of historical note.

If you had left Trump out it would have dissolved into many shades of grey.. hence my two groupings of the four....he stuck out (as odd man out) in that grouping so no pussying out my friend.  There was a right answer, and plenty of wrong answers haha Beer
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2018 at 19:03
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Degree in History (BA) Hons, speak Russian, been to Russia, lots of Russian mates. Also worked in Germany. 40 year interest in WW2.

Stalin was not comparable to Hitler. Only insofaras both were dictators. The detail is different in many, many ways. 

well.. now we're talking...
 

I see others let that slide...  but I can't.  Care to elaborate and expound on that... you don't strike me as a f**king nutjob so I don't expect you to deny the Holocast and all that jazz.. and if you are as well educated as you say you obviously know of the millions Stalin killed as well as seeing all the signs that if Hitler had not invaded first... Stalin had everything in motion to overrun all of Europe and stab Hitler in the back.  As history for dummies (our education system) still teaches today that poor Stalin was stabbed in teh back by Hitler.  Hitler invaded first .. because he HAD to ..  he knew Stalin was about to launch a surprise attack on him. 

The goal...  take all of Europe before America fully mobilized and created a 2nd front.

anyhow.. again.. I'm sure you know all that. So I'd be.. as a historian.. and also a 40 year student of the Eastern Front.. just how you think Stalin was not comparable to Hilter. sh*t man...  in the funny ways of the world and history..  we were probably 6 weeks away in the summer of '41 from a complete rewrite of history as we know it today.  As well as not just a murderous rampage extending not just  all over eastern Europe.. but ALL of Europe as he liquidated intellectuals, ex-military, or about anyone who might have been a threat as he well did in his own country.. and countries like Poland and the Baltic states after 1939.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2018 at 03:19
Micky, Stalin is not comparable to Hitler and it's nothing to do the thread. Mind you, the thread is nothing to do with reality, anyway. ;-) There have been many books showing some kind of comparison between the two but the more modern historical approach is to show the contrasts between them. 

I'm not using "comparable" as a measure of dictatorship, I'm saying that all they had in common was totalitarian dictatorship. Using the logic of that, Julius Caesar was comparable with Stalin, as was Pol Pot or Mao Zhedong. The fact is that there are many surface similarities but many major differences. If you somehow read into my post "I support Stalin" then kindly re-read it.

No need to tell me about anything to do with Russia or the Ostfront, Micky. Whilst you were studying it, I was having dinner in Sergeant Pavlovs' House in Volgograd, the old Stalingrad, and meeting Stalingrad veterans. I had relatives who just disappeared in the battle. Army picked them up from the village, they never came back. I also have family who were on the German side in WW2, ended up in POW camps in England and stayed on after the war as there was nothing to go back to. 

And it's nothing to do with a "did the Russians do a nerve agent attack in the UK" thread, of course. 

But since we've even devolved so far from reality here as to suggest the UK Gov PLC did it to distract the UK Public (of which I am a paying member) from Brexit, the thread has surpassed the outer limits of credibility and sense and devolved into utter idiocy. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2018 at 03:42

During an argument with his wayward son, Yakov, in about 1941, Stalin is heard to have shouted, “I am not Stalin !! Stalin is Socialist Power !!! “

If you want to contrast Hitler and Stalin, you have to first understand both men. There are entire books on the subject. Generally, before the fall of Communism (and the subsequent emergence of new sources of information) the details were pretty much obfuscated and Stalin was roughly equated to being like Hitler, based on an inane tally of how many citizens both totalitarian regimes killed.

Stalin is somewhat revered in Russia amongst the older generation and in some areas, notably Georgia (Stalin was originally from a small town in Russia called Gori.) Russia has always historically been a huge country, split into individual fiefdoms ruled over by corrupt local panjandrums and the key to ruling Russia – I say “ruling” as the emancipation of peasants in Russia came in in the 1870’s – has been always perceived as having a strong leader who could rule one Russia from a capital, be it Kiev or Moscow, historically.

Russians tend to look back to Ivan IV (“The terrible”) as the first Russian ruler to do this. Ivan was categorically not a pleasant fellow. When the town of Novgorod was rumoured to be about to defect to enemy powers in 1570, Ivan had the inhabitants massacred. Some were strapped to huge rafts and pushed into the frozen river. The information about the massacre came from Ivan’s secret police force – the oprichniki – essentially a private army there to spy on potential rebellion.

Stalin, in the late 30’s, essentially models himself on Ivan IV. He is a man with very little individual personality, when you examine him. Unlike the Nazi regime, he relies on a secret army of informers and ruthlessness. He sees treachery and treason all around. Enemies are silenced, brutally. Just as one distinguishing factor, in some major cities, the Nazi had less than 20 members of the Gestapo to police and entire city, and, in some cases, even French provinces. Whilst it can’t be disguised that both Stalin and Hitler were dictators, they were extremely different in nature and the totalitarian states they created differed in many ways. This is just a brief example.

Vladimir Putin is just following the centuries old Russian traditions, to be honest. The modern version of the oprichniki still exist, there are still many enemies, real and imagined, to be discovered, both internally and externally, and, as in any country with so much Borgias like intrigue, Borgias like methods are used to eliminate “opponents”, be they journalists or dissidents or spies.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2018 at 04:07
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

During an argument with his wayward son, Yakov, in about 1941, Stalin is heard to have shouted, “I am not Stalin !! Stalin is Socialist Power !!! “

If you want to contrast Hitler and Stalin, you have to first understand both men. There are entire books on the subject. Generally, before the fall of Communism (and the subsequent emergence of new sources of information) the details were pretty much obfuscated and Stalin was roughly equated to being like Hitler, based on an inane tally of how many citizens both totalitarian regimes killed.

Stalin is somewhat revered in Russia amongst the older generation and in some areas, notably Georgia (Stalin was originally from a small town in Russia called Gori.) Russia has always historically been a huge country, split into individual fiefdoms ruled over by corrupt local panjandrums and the key to ruling Russia – I say “ruling” as the emancipation of peasants in Russia came in in the 1870’s – has been always perceived as having a strong leader who could rule one Russia from a capital, be it Kiev or Moscow, historically.

Russians tend to look back to Ivan IV (“The terrible”) as the first Russian ruler to do this. Ivan was categorically not a pleasant fellow. When the town of Novgorod was rumoured to be about to defect to enemy powers in 1570, Ivan had the inhabitants massacred. Some were strapped to huge rafts and pushed into the frozen river. The information about the massacre came from Ivan’s secret police force – the oprichniki – essentially a private army there to spy on potential rebellion.

Stalin, in the late 30’s, essentially models himself on Ivan IV. He is a man with very little individual personality, when you examine him. Unlike the Nazi regime, he relies on a secret army of informers and ruthlessness. He sees treachery and treason all around. Enemies are silenced, brutally. Just as one distinguishing factor, in some major cities, the Nazi had less than 20 members of the Gestapo to police and entire city, and, in some cases, even French provinces. Whilst it can’t be disguised that both Stalin and Hitler were dictators, they were extremely different in nature and the totalitarian states they created differed in many ways. This is just a brief example.

Vladimir Putin is just following the centuries old Russian traditions, to be honest. The modern version of the oprichniki still exist, there are still many enemies, real and imagined, to be discovered, both internally and externally, and, as in any country with so much Borgias like intrigue, Borgias like methods are used to eliminate “opponents”, be they journalists or dissidents or spies.


Stalin was also extremely paranoid and always feared plots against him. the most dangerous position to hold under Stalin was head of the secret service; he always distrusted his own secret service


Edited by BaldJean - April 10 2018 at 04:36


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2018 at 04:12
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

During an argument with his wayward son, Yakov, in about 1941, Stalin is heard to have shouted, “I am not Stalin !! Stalin is Socialist Power !!! “

If you want to contrast Hitler and Stalin, you have to first understand both men. There are entire books on the subject. Generally, before the fall of Communism (and the subsequent emergence of new sources of information) the details were pretty much obfuscated and Stalin was roughly equated to being like Hitler, based on an inane tally of how many citizens both totalitarian regimes killed.

Stalin is somewhat revered in Russia amongst the older generation and in some areas, notably Georgia (Stalin was originally from a small town in Russia called Gori.) Russia has always historically been a huge country, split into individual fiefdoms ruled over by corrupt local panjandrums and the key to ruling Russia – I say “ruling” as the emancipation of peasants in Russia came in in the 1870’s – has been always perceived as having a strong leader who could rule one Russia from a capital, be it Kiev or Moscow, historically.

Russians tend to look back to Ivan IV (“The terrible”) as the first Russian ruler to do this. Ivan was categorically not a pleasant fellow. When the town of Novgorod was rumoured to be about to defect to enemy powers in 1570, Ivan had the inhabitants massacred. Some were strapped to huge rafts and pushed into the frozen river. The information about the massacre came from Ivan’s secret police force – the oprichniki – essentially a private army there to spy on potential rebellion.

Stalin, in the late 30’s, essentially models himself on Ivan IV. He is a man with very little individual personality, when you examine him. Unlike the Nazi regime, he relies on a secret army of informers and ruthlessness. He sees treachery and treason all around. Enemies are silenced, brutally. Just as one distinguishing factor, in some major cities, the Nazi had less than 20 members of the Gestapo to police and entire city, and, in some cases, even French provinces. Whilst it can’t be disguised that both Stalin and Hitler were dictators, they were extremely different in nature and the totalitarian states they created differed in many ways. This is just a brief example.

Vladimir Putin is just following the centuries old Russian traditions, to be honest. The modern version of the oprichniki still exist, there are still many enemies, real and imagined, to be discovered, both internally and externally, and, as in any country with so much Borgias like intrigue, Borgias like methods are used to eliminate “opponents”, be they journalists or dissidents or spies.

I enjoyed your posts Dave! Shocked I only suggested that Stalin and Hitler belonged in a similar category. Not they were similar. How could they be with such different cultural, social backgrounds and extremely different personalities? I do believe that they shared similar traits in their methods of rounding up what they considered threats to the state and disposing of them, with little more to it than that.

Edited by SteveG - April 10 2018 at 04:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2018 at 04:15
Hi Jean, that's completely correct. Hitler was cautious, Stalin was paranoid. Run a country full of intrigue like Russia, you had to be. Hitler survived quite a few assassination attempts. None were ever made on Stalin. There was one incident in 1936 when he was on holiday and someone fired a gun nearby: it was probably just hunters. The Politburo, who were holidaying with him (of course) hyped the matter up into a supposed assassination attempt so some victims could be found, and hence credit for the discoverer.

Stalin's power was so absolute that the Politburo had to ask him to stop walking around the Kremlin late at night on his own in the 30's. (No one dared touch him. Apparently a tramp asked him for some money one night. Stalin gave him 10 roubles. The tramp cursed him as a "damn bourgeois" for having so much money. Stalin said to a friend, "Who can understand our people ? " 

With regards to the idea that the Russians were going to invade first in WW2, someone is reading the wrong history books.

Stalin actually placed some naďve faith in the Ribbentrop pact and, whilst he was increasing forces on his Western front in 1941, had no plans of invading until 1942 at the earliest and possibly more like 1943. This is why the Germans pushed all the way initially to Briansk: in a lot of cases, Soviet forces were under initial orders to not attack attacking German forces.

Stalin famously retreated to his dacha and did nothing for a week after the invasion: he was apparently stunned by it and thought the Politburo would replace him.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2018 at 04:17
Steve, no criticism of you. 

However, some people are suggesting that Stalin equals Hitler. Bong, wrong. 

Most are displaying a lack of understanding about the way Russia (and the UK) works. Surprising when we're talking about the ex head of the KGB that a few would be so complimentary about him. 

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