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Topic ClosedRussian chemical attack on UK

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Poll Question: How should government respond?
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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 06:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


^ Bravo! Clap But a bit paranoid too? Ermm Hmm...
 
LOL



Yeah, all bases covered. I'd make a good politician

I just think there needs to be evidence of something to cite it as fact or 'probably true' There is an abundance of evidence on dislay quite openely every day that indicates the uber wealthy and the politcal class have a symbiotic relationship. I don't think there is anything conspiratorial about that. The UK's lucrative relationship with Saudi Arabia, against a back drop of hypocritical guff about human rights, and the enormous donations our current government takes from rich Russians living in London, and in some cases connected to Putin is a matter of open public record.

It's when we get into the Bilderburg group planning to mass kill the world population with engineered plagues, or using the internet to make us all gay, I start losing interest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 06:39
I would suggest sending over Phil Collins to do a Russian Tour - with compulsory Attendance for all Russian politically active membership. I'm sure that after that they may well leave the Novachok? Nerve agent alone because they would all be still in rehab....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 09:43
"Found in a catatonic state in Salisbury"

To be fair, half of Salisbury is catatonic on a Saturday night. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 10:01
Old UK frats here will probably remember the Georgi Markov case, where a Bulgarian dissident was stabbed in the leg with a poisoned umbrella, injecting a pellet containing ricin into him: he died shortly later. This was in 1978, nothing was done, the case remains unsolved. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 12:56
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

These are usually false flags that are masterminded to instill fear in the public in order to carry out some political means. A tired but effective method (think Bay of Pigs in Cuba in 1960s)

 This^
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 13:00
^This is not. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 15:51
^ Yeah I'd tend to agree.   Espionage is an ugly business.   Spies are still killed. 


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 15:53
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"Found in a catatonic state in Salisbury"
To be fair, half of Salisbury is catatonic on a Saturday night. 

 
  LOL

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 19:11
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^This is not. Wink

Too much evidence to the contrary. If we think in evolutiionary terms, using the same old tired cold war tactics is a bit of a laughable manner. I really wish i could convey the proponderence of evidence i've encountered in a mere chat forum but all i'm asking everyone to do is keep minds open and accept no claims as truth.

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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 19:24
I wouldn't claim that Russia doesn't kill spies and other folks, however false flags are a time tested tactic.  

Ask yourself:

1. Who has the most to gain by the death of the spy?

2. Who has the most to gain politically by the "world wide" publication of the "Spy Poisoned" story? 
Russia?
UK?  
Russia's enemies? 




Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 14 2018 at 19:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 22:14
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I wouldn't claim that Russia doesn't kill spies and other folks, however false flags are a time tested tactic.  

Ask yourself:
1. Who has the most to gain by the death of the spy?
2. Who has the most to gain politically by the "world wide" publication of the "Spy Poisoned" story? 
Russia?
UK?  
Russia's enemies?

Perhaps, but that sort of all-purpose theory doesn't always hold true.   Who had the most to gain by the death of John Kennedy?: Lyndon Johnson?  The Mob?  Cubans?  CIA?  Richard Nixon?  Kremlin?  British bankers?  Cookie Monster?   You see the problem.

Who gains most from the death of a Russian spy?  Other Russian spies.  As for politically, it is irrelevant because everyone knows Russia plays hardball, especially with espionage and this only reinforces that perception.  This will probably be forgotten in a month or so.

Who benefits most?   The СВР РФ, obviously.   Russia wins.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2018 at 22:15
Was Alexander Litvinenko a false flag too? And I must say that Russia historically has always tried to hunt down their traitors , from Trotsky onto Penkovsky, Popov , Tolkachev, Varenik as well as most recently, a rash of Russian diplomats knocked off by the alleged mafia but who were known to be challenging Putin. Culturally, the Russian mindset is formatted by a loathing for treasonous countrymen. That is why Stalin ruled so effectively, with an iron fist that is beyond imagination. That is why Russia, free of the USSR, is veering fast towards regaining empirical power. Vlad even said so in his recent speech. Smert shpionam (SMERSH) was the first state-run hit squad! It was very effective. The current FSB and the vastly expanded GRU are dictating new methods for Putin to remain solidly entrenched in power. They are a serious bunch , who like Trump, dont give a hoot about consequences . 
It surely can be a false flag , as there have been so many since the dawn of time. The history is there , in the history books and the interviews I have had with former operatives. Putin is no nice guy and the Russians love that! That's the problem, because absolute power is damn scary...Whether Trump or Vlad , the both are BAD! 
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 03:02
There is no evidence this was a false flag operation. They do happen, I get that, but there is no supporting evidence for that in this case.

That said, who are any of us to guess what goes on? We don't know the half of it. Of that I'm certain. Information is a dangerous thing, and people often react violently to truth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 04:16
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Who gains most from the death of a Russian spy?  Other Russian spies


Excellent example. No one is claiming that false flags don't exist, only that in this case it's unlikely and that's the difference when people try to argue their paranoid agenda. And make no mistake about it, a big part of paranoia is the failure to reason rationally.

Edited by SteveG - March 15 2018 at 04:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 05:15

In another frenetic day of claim and counterclaim with the Kremlin:

  • Mrs May said the government had come to the conclusion that the 'Russian state was responsible for the attempted assassination of Sergei Skripal and his daughter'.
  • She announced the eviction of 40 per cent of diplomats from the Russian embassy, with 23 being ordered to leave the UK within a week.
  • The PM confirmed that ministers and the Royal Family will boycott the World Cup in Russian this summer. She also suggested the FA will want to 'consider their position' in light of her statement. 
  • The government will bring forward legislation to toughen powers to impose sanctions and tackle espionage by foreign states. 
  • Paving the way for a crackdown on Russian oligarchs, Mrs May said there would be tighter checks on those coming to the UK and there could be 'no place' for corruption.
  •  
  • The UK has summoned an urgent meeting of the UN security council to discuss the nerve agent attack amid calls for international reprisals.
  • Jeremy Corbyn prompted fury by calling for 'dialogue' with Russia and refusing to give a full-throated condemnation, while his spokesman suggested the security services might be wrong because they claimed there were WMD in Iraq. 


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5498995/PM-prepares-lay-response-Russia-Salisbury-outrage.html#ixzz59oasz7xe
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Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 15 2018 at 05:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 05:35
In other words the British are less obvious about killing spies than the Russians. 


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 05:58
While researching Russian Spy Story, I found this Story next to it.   What's going on in Telford?

"As many as 1,000 children could have suffered at the merciless hands of perverts and torturers in Telford since the 1980s.

Girls as young as 11 have been lured from their families to be drugged, beaten and raped in an epidemic that, say victims, is still ongoing."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-worst-ever-child-grooming-12165527



Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 15 2018 at 05:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 06:32
^^^ There is a ongoing problem in the UK where young girls are groomed by gangs - usually comprised of Asian men (sorry, but that is the case) - and then plied with drugs and raped. It's not just Telford. It's numeous cities up and down the country but appears to be particulaly bad in the north. There is evidence that in the case of some city councils and social services, there has been a reluctance to act out of fear of upsetting 'community cohesion' instead, in the case of Rotheram, blaming the girls, suggesting they were essentially hookers.

Anyway, that's another thread, and one which would probably be shut down PDQ.

Edited by Blacksword - March 15 2018 at 06:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 06:36
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

In other words the British are less obvious about killing spies than the Russians. 




We have to be more discreet. We're a fairly insignifcant country on the world stage. We're like the angry short guy at the bar, absusing the big guy, but always making sure there is a clear passage to the exit, and that 'our big guy' the US, is right behind us. All mouth and no trousers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2018 at 06:58
We may be a small country but we still have the ability to nuke some sense into any bigger adversary - think of us as an angry short ginger bloke with an AK47.......
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