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Topic ClosedMagma vs Van der Graaf Generator

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Poll Question: Which do you choose?
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CosmicVibration View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2017 at 21:32
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

That link was compliments of Mr. Logan who originally posted it.  I thank him as it expanded on what I already knew about the band and I had fun reading it.  At least for me,  it solidified the feeling I got from just listening to the music and not really knowing what they were singing about. 

Not sure how I would feel if Vander really was deceptively dark and evil.  I would probably just be confused on why his exquisite music conveys such beauty for me.  I would still continue to listen to it, perhaps not as much though.  Anyway it’s not about me, you have to do what feels right and is healthy for you.

You mentioned you meditate to music.  I don’t know what your goal or goals are and there are thousands of meditation techniques.   If it’s for spiritual development it’s wiser and faster to focus your concentration on turning your senses inward versus outward.

However, with a razor sharp focus on anything, including music, one can put himself in a meditative state.   Elite athletes call this the “zone”  and when questioned about it they all convey the same message.  It’s as if time stood still or slowed down and there was no thought process involved.  Rather than a thinker and a doer it just happens in a thoughtless state as a casual observer.

Here’s an excellent piece from Hoyry Kone that you may enjoy to fully tune into.



You clearly know something about meditation, that's cool. Clap

I just use it to relax, and 'program myself.' They say that autosuggestions work best when the mind is in alpha state. So that's it really, I gave up trying to achieve "enlightenment" a while back. And thanks for the video, yeah it sounds more like what you'd normally think of to use for something like meditation. It's just I guess I'm trying to combine listening to these new prog artists with getting in my meditation lol. Like when else am I going to listen to Marillion, or Eloy, or whoever.

Do you meditate at all? Your username might suggest that you do.  


I’ve been meditating for about 30 years now.  I started strictly for health, stamina and martial art power. After the first 10 years my objective changed to get closer to reality, to lift the veil of delusion, aka achieve enlightenment. I did have a few breakthroughs and maybe in a couple hundred years I’ll attain my objective.

They say that the hardest thing to do in the world is to still the mind.  I would concur…

“Be still and know that I am God”


heh...   that is pretty cool man.  Yeah I've been doing it close to 20 myself.  

I fully concur the hardest thing to do in the world is still the mind. Booze works pretty well as well but at the time I had started I had just gone through AA and I thought it would be pretty poor form to fall off the wagon so quickly so I took up meditation which fully fit my religious/spiritual inclinations anyhow. Of coursre my worse half, the reason I need either mass consumptions of booze/mediation really had a ball with that.  Supportive she was not.  The only person I've ever met that perhaps has less empathy and heart than our f**king President hahaha.   Good example, even tried going vegetarian once... oh she wasn't having any of that and said f**k you and that hippy bullsh*t.. and fed me nothing but canned veggies (no I can not cook, I burn pasta water) until I broke.   Hah...  it took 2 months. I didn't go down without a fight LOLClap


Booze actually has the opposite effect; I know from experience.  Yea, it may slow down your thoughts so you’re not as bombarded by them but it’s not about stopping your thoughts but controlling your thoughts.  It’s all about controlling the mind (mind control), and when you’re inebriated awareness and cognizant ability degrades as do motor skills
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2017 at 21:40
tongue in cheek.. and agree fully.  Meditation helped me survive the last few years of a very bad marriage and pick up the pieces to finally move forward to where I am now..... booze wouldn't have got me out of that marriage.. much less flipped my life 180 to where I am today. If only I had discoverdd Meditation much earlier than I did. Oh well.. that is life isn't it.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2017 at 23:46
Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:



You're a funny guy(but that symbol isn't). Anyway thank you for posting that, maybe some day I'll listen to it. 

I did find this.. 

http://www.richieunterberger.com/allen.html The fourth paragraph under What were the primary assets Giorgio gave to the acts he was involved with?
[/QUOTE]

Yea, that’s a bit unnerving.  In that scenario I wonder why no one bothered to ask any questions the find out where that person’s head is really at.  Is it for some sort of inspiration?  Is it some kind of commemoration?  Is it to throw darts at?  I’d probably start with, yo dude, what the f**k is up with that?  Then listen to the response and take it to the next question.   Don’t judge a book by its cover

What’s not funny but sad is the way man perverts everything.   Man has corrupted symbols, figures, teachings of great masters, religions, etc.   The concept of god has become so perverted that if you concede to the distortions then as a rational person it would be sensible to stay away.   You have to go beyond man’s perversions and try to perceive things for what they actually represent.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah you're right, everything that symbol was connected with in WWII.. really horrible. I want no part of that, and don't think it's healthy for me to meditate to that kind of negative energy.

I absolutely believe in God. In fact I had an experience on June 18th of 2009 where I asked God to reveal Himself to me and He did! I don't blame you if you don't believe that, but it is the truth. Thanks again for all your insights man. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2017 at 17:08

[/QUOTE]

Yeah you're right, everything that symbol was connected with in WWII.. really horrible. I want no part of that, and don't think it's healthy for me to meditate to that kind of negative energy.

I absolutely believe in God. In fact I had an experience on June 18th of 2009 where I asked God to reveal Himself to me and He did! I don't blame you if you don't believe that, but it is the truth. Thanks again for all your insights man. 
[/QUOTE]

Not to beat a dead horse but yea, it’s probably best to stay away especially during meditation.  I however, by association, had to confront it.  Even though I had a general idea of what the symbol was supposed to represent it still perturbed me in a negative fashion when I saw it.

Not only did my wife’s friend have them in her apartment but her parents proudly displayed the insignia all over their house.  These were the nicest people I’ve ever met but I just felt a bit strange in their home.   They even had a swastika door mat.  Which is kind of strange in its own right.  If the symbol signifies the embodiment of God as creation why would you want to swipe the soles of your shoes and trample on it?  Ah well, maybe that’s another personal hang up I need to get over.

I don’t doubt you; I myself have had a few experiences and hold a personal relationship with the Divine.

Wish you all the best on your progress and endeavors.  You may want to consider the music of Jon Anderson and George Harrison; I don’t think there are qualms as to where they stand.  A worthy song that comes to mind is - I’ll Find My Way Home by Jon and Vangelis.  Also, My Sweet Lord by George Harrison.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2017 at 09:34
When I worked in Japan I got used to the swastikas since I loved visiting the temples. Interesting, well, no, not really, to think that Germany allied itself with another place to that used the ancient symbol of the swastika. While the swastika originated in the Indian subcontinent, I've found it also interesting that the term Aryan (which means noble) also refers to Indic people going back 3500 years (and then later the Indo-Iranians used it). The Nazis were pilferers, they borrowed symbolism, mythology, terminology amonngsttother things such as art, from various regions.

As for mediation, I'm practicing it more, which is good cause there are major stresses to deal with. I do find mindfulness so helpful, and some neuroscientists claim that it helps to increase grey matter concentration which is something I'm sorely in need of since I suffered some brain damage some time back. Luckily, there is far more neuroplasticity than once was thought.

Edited by Logan - September 02 2017 at 09:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2017 at 19:01
I'm not really sure on what level we decide versus. I think lyrically Magma kind of had a novelty one-off concept album idea that was quite decent on the first album then dragged it out forever like it was some kind of brilliant plan to the onanistic delight of their wilfully adoring fans. At their best they have a gloomy, crashing operatic magnificence quite unlike anything else you will hear. I'm particularly fond of the debut.

Van Der Graaf Generator are blessed with some of the most impressionistic and striking lyrics in progressive rock, a phenomenal vocalist and a fascinating four-man dynamic (the power-chording double-saxophone or wandering flutes offset against Hugh Banton's serpentine counterpoint is a thing unto itself) and I think individually underestimated musicians. Hammill's musical ideas are very warm, natural, exploratory and human and I think he's almost without a doubt the best solo singer-songwriter in the sphere of progressive music (maybe Barrett also stands out). Can't go wrong with the classic period (H to He through to Still Life) but many of the bits outside of that are still very interesting (The Quiet Zone/The Pleasure Dome under Van Der Graaf stands out).

For what it's worth, both great outfits but VDG remains touching on more levels for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2017 at 15:18
Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:


Not to beat a dead horse but yea, it’s probably best to stay away especially during meditation.  I however, by association, had to confront it.  Even though I had a general idea of what the symbol was supposed to represent it still perturbed me in a negative fashion when I saw it.

Not only did my wife’s friend have them in her apartment but her parents proudly displayed the insignia all over their house.  These were the nicest people I’ve ever met but I just felt a bit strange in their home.   They even had a swastika door mat.  Which is kind of strange in its own right.  If the symbol signifies the embodiment of God as creation why would you want to swipe the soles of your shoes and trample on it?  Ah well, maybe that’s another personal hang up I need to get over.

I don’t doubt you; I myself have had a few experiences and hold a personal relationship with the Divine.

Wish you all the best on your progress and endeavors.  You may want to consider the music of Jon Anderson and George Harrison; I don’t think there are qualms as to where they stand.  A worthy song that comes to mind is - I’ll Find My Way Home by Jon and Vangelis.  Also, My Sweet Lord by George Harrison.


Thanks for the recommendations man.. I definitely love both of those guys.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2017 at 15:25
Thanks for all your well thought out responses here everyone. At this point I don't actually care about either band lol, but I'm glad some of you do. Cheers. 

Edit: geez.. sometimes it's hard to tell if it's a storefront or not lol. 


Edited by YESESIS - September 04 2017 at 15:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2017 at 02:54
VDGG and it's not close at all. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 13:03
VDGG

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 16:25
about the 2 swastikas on the cover of Magma's first album: these are very obviously not meant to glorify the Nazis, on the contrary. the cover shows people in fear and terror; you would hardly do this if you wanted to glorify Nazism.

believing that these 2 swastikas on the cover prove that Vander is a Nazi is actually quite similar to people believing Friede was serious when she parodied Nazi speeches


Edited by BaldJean - February 21 2018 at 16:26


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 16:50
hah.. thank god for no brainers like this

Magma...  by as many stars are there in the sky. VDGG in a word.. sucks...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 17:33
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hah.. thank god for no brainers like this

Magma...  by as many stars are there in the sky. VDGG in a word.. sucks...

Just out of curiosity, what turns you off about VDGG?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 17:42
caught me logged out so I'll make this quick

many things... but John said it best.. and he and I connected because our tastes.. incluing a love of prog to  degree. but it is only one of many types of music we love... so there is little tolerance for sh*tty prog...so I'll let explain.  I love writers.. I am not one however. I agree completely with his thoughts on the band.

Van Der Graaf Generator are the fathers of "mediocre prog." (This should not be taken as me saying that VDGG themselves were mediocre, because I don't really believe that). As I've said many times on other pages on the site, I have nothing against prog rock as a whole, mainly because I refuse to buy into the notion that all the extra trappings prog brings to rock music are intrinisically incompatible with "the true spirit of rock and roll" (my personal least favorite phrase relating to rock music). Complexity, discord, "sophisticated" lyrics, non-traditional instrumentation etc are all perfectly fine by me, and the number of art-rock/prog-rock albums to which I give very high ratings on this webpage should aptly reflect that.

However, for all this tolerance, there is a catch: I tolerate and love these aspects so long as they are an augmentation of and not a replacement for traditional musical creativity. I know that for many prog fans, memorability is something to be shunned, and that an increase in atmosphere and complexity and impenetrable imagery at the expense of "traditional" music values is greatly desired. For somebody like myself, though, for whom prog is only one genre that I enjoy (a genre I enjoy a lot in comparison to some others, but only one genre nonetheless), this is a very shaky approach to prog, and one that (unfortunately) VDGG uses quite a bit. I actually have somewhat the same problem with mid-period Jethro Tull - I'm totally in love with them through Thick as a Brick (as well as the Chateau D'Isaster tapes), but from A Passion Play onward, except for some isolated cases, there are far too many stretches of what my ears hear as "prog for the sake of prog" for me to be that enthused

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 18:52
somehow I don't understand you at all, Micky; you sound like John Daly from "What's My Line?" giving one of his elaborate explanations. may we have a conference?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 22:32
Like VDGG quite much, but really Magma to me!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 22:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 22:45
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

about the 2 swastikas on the cover of Magma's first album: these are very obviously not meant to glorify the Nazis, on the contrary. the cover shows people in fear and terror; you would hardly do this if you wanted to glorify Nazism.

believing that these 2 swastikas on the cover prove that Vander is a Nazi is actually quite similar to people believing Friede was serious when she parodied Nazi speeches
In the wikisites I read (that text is not anymore there) that Gong´s Daevid Allen has said Vander had nazi swastikas in the wall in the begin of seventies. But I don´t think even he had a nazi admiring period in his life, he would have been nazi all of his life. Even David Bowie has nazi admiring period in the seventies (of course he could have put it his heavy cocaine using causing) but he married somali woman in the nineties.

Anyway, I don´t care, Magma has just made so great music!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2018 at 23:34
the swastika is originally an ancient religious symbol from India. in Sanskrit "swastika" means "auspicious". the fact that the Nazis abused this symbol sadly overshadows the original meaning.

the symbol was also used in medieval alchemy; it appears in several alchemistic manuscripts, for example in a manuscript called "Splendor Solis" meaning "splendor of the sun" (this manuscript is actually a Renaissance manuscript dated 1532-1535, but the line between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance is a bit fluid).

by the way: if you look closely at the cover of the first Magma album you will not only find the swastika, you will also find the Statue of Liberty


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2018 at 00:15
^I already know the history of swastikas, seen those swastikas in old Indian pictures. That´s why I put that comment nazi swastika (I believe Allen meant the ones with white round base and red around it). Anyway I have always though also in that first albums cover they are sympols of that chaos where world was gone and those spirituals decided to leave the earth. BTW that first one is my favourite Magma-album.
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