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Logan 
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35951
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 Posted: August 23 2017 at 13:59 |
 DoctorD wrote:
“You can only enforce communism at the point of a gun because people resist.” |
If people weren't resistant then you wouldn't need to enforce it, but I fear that having a nuanced dialectic will probably be impossible here. The haves will be more likely to resist communism than the have nots, because at its core, communism concerns itself with people sharing the resources. Wasn't that quote talking about Stalinist Russia? Which I would argue again is not true communism. It's good to cite your sources when using quotes. Perhaps you would define communism so the discussion is not at cross-purposes. "You can only enforce gun control at the point of a gun because people resist."
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DoctorD
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 05 2010
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 14:11 |
Logan wrote:
[QUOTE=DoctorD]
Perhaps you would define communism so the discussion is not at cross-purposes.
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"a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war
and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and
each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs."
Communism = limited individual freedoms, limited upward mobility, limited freedom of expression, scarcity of resources, etc.
Only agree with "each person works"
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67407
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 14:14 |
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"Each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs" is pretty much the definition of the ideal society.
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67407
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 14:18 |
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I'm in favor of communism in theory but I feel that it will only work in small communities of kind and intelligent people. On a national or international level the majority would resist because the majority are either greedy or stupid or both.
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DoctorD
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 05 2010
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 15:02 |
Vompatti wrote:
I'm in favor of communism in theory but I feel that it will only work in small communities of kind and intelligent people. On a national or international level the majority would resist because the majority are either greedy or stupid or both. |
Capitalism seems to work on all levels much better than any form of communism.
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67407
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 15:18 |
DoctorD wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
I'm in favor of communism in theory but I feel that it will only work in small communities of kind and intelligent people. On a national or international level the majority would resist because the majority are either greedy or stupid or both. |
Capitalism seems to work on all levels much better than any form of communism.
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What do you mean by that? You claimed yourself that "communism", as you call it, killed 94 million people. And although that's not nearly enough to counter the birth rates, don't you think it's pretty decent start compared to the pathetic numbers of capitalism?
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Cosmiclawnmower
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2010
Location: West Country,UK
Status: Offline
Points: 3684
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 15:49 |
DoctorD wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
^^
>Show me a good car developed under a socialist/communist regime. Pretty much any Lada of the soviet era. Durable, starts in any conditions, simple enough to repair at home etc. |
What's the difference between a Lada and a golf ball?
You can drive a golf ball 200 metres
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Ive owned both Russian Lada cars and Ural/ Dneiper Motorcycles; both were rugged and reliable and could be fixed at home using basic tools; They came with their own extensive tool kits and were designed to cope with extremes of climate. Even during the 70's and 80's cars in Europe, Japan & America were being manufactured to be more and more complex and less and less accessible for the home mechanic, thus creating a monopoly amongst the dealerships to force even the simplest jobs to be done by them at inflated prices and make us less and less able to do these things for ourselves. So one thing Capitalism certainly aims to do is make us individually less reliant on our own skills and initiative. Another fantastic initiative that came out of Soviet Russia was a breeding programme for Potato varieties that are highly disease resistant and highly productive in extremely low input systems (water, fertilizer etc) which may not seem very exciting but looking at how important the humble potato is in the world diet and how just about every other breeding programme has relied on either genetic modification combined with higher and more chemical reliant inputs.
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 18:15 |
DoctorD wrote:
Capitalism seems to work on all levels much better than any form of communism |
Just another BIG fallace ... or, better saying, an appalling assumption....
For capitalism, in order to work much better, it shouldn't imply neither exploitation nor strong wealth concentration. However, it is a system based on wage labour - that is, exploitation - where one class is exploited by another. Capitalist stability is not only based on endless expansion of the world market, but also on intensifying exploitation..... and to a large degree the burden, here, is passed on to the working poor and the 'developing' economies - with dumping of excess produce, and ever-intensifying rates of ...exploitation!
And don't get me wrong.....the Eastern Bloc (*) was more 'economically level' than the West - and our Western prosperity has been due partly to exploitation of the 'third world', ...and ....dependence of a layer of 'working poor' within those capitalist economies.
(*) Okay, let us put apart appalling examples such as the place of Roumania in the Eastern Bloc.
Edited by Tillerman88 - August 23 2017 at 18:19
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The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15921
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 19:09 |
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It's bullsh*t that we, the people, are governed by douchebag ideologies at all. Politics, in general, is poisonous.
In Zappa's immortal words, regarding folks in the higher places, " coz what you do and what you say, affects my life in every way, I learn to hate it every minute ".
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 20:04 |
Religion. Capitalists very rarely strap bombs to themselves and blow up buses, burn people at the stake or stone anyone.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15921
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 21:56 |
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Yeah, Religion f**ks everyone up the arse.............
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addictedtoprog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2014
Location: india
Status: Offline
Points: 1422
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 22:06 |
Tom Ozric wrote:
Yeah, Religion f**ks everyone up the arse............. |
^^
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Magnum Vaeltaja
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 01 2015
Location: Out East
Status: Offline
Points: 6777
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 22:09 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Religion. Capitalists very rarely strap bombs to themselves and blow up buses, burn people at the stake or stone anyone.
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Capitalists have, however, killed numerous strikers over the years during labour disputes, like in the Ludlow Massacre or the Homestead Strike.
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when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
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mechanicalflattery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 08 2016
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
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Posted: August 23 2017 at 22:24 |
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And this is why I avoid the political threads...
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DoctorD
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 05 2010
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: August 24 2017 at 07:38 |
Cosmiclawnmower wrote:
DoctorD wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
^^
>Show me a good car developed under a socialist/communist regime. Pretty much any Lada of the soviet era. Durable, starts in any conditions, simple enough to repair at home etc. |
What's the difference between a Lada and a golf ball?
You can drive a golf ball 200 metres
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Ive owned both Russian Lada cars and Ural/ Dneiper Motorcycles; both were rugged and reliable and could be fixed at home using basic tools; They came with their own extensive tool kits and were designed to cope with extremes of climate. Even during the 70's and 80's cars in Europe, Japan & America were being manufactured to be more and more complex and less and less accessible for the home mechanic, thus creating a monopoly amongst the dealerships to force even the simplest jobs to be done by them at inflated prices and make us less and less able to do these things for ourselves. So one thing Capitalism certainly aims to do is make us individually less reliant on our own skills and initiative. Another fantastic initiative that came out of Soviet Russia was a breeding programme for Potato varieties that are highly disease resistant and highly productive in extremely low input systems (water, fertilizer etc) which may not seem very exciting but looking at how important the humble potato is in the world diet and how just about every other breeding programme has relied on either genetic modification combined with higher and more chemical reliant inputs.
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Well, I stand corrected. Russia did two good things: Lada's and potatoes. Russia's obviously the best. Sign me up comrade!
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DoctorD
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 05 2010
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 23
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Posted: August 24 2017 at 07:41 |
I'm really stumped... What do you mean by a "pretty decent start"? Would have it been better for communist regimes to kill more? Confused.
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67407
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Posted: August 24 2017 at 07:56 |
DoctorD wrote:
I'm really stumped... What do you mean by a "pretty decent start"? Would have it been better for communist regimes to kill more? Confused.
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I think we can all agree that as long as less being born isn't going to happen more being killed is the second best option.
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progaardvark
Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 51103
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Posted: August 24 2017 at 10:29 |
DoctorD wrote:
Well, I stand corrected. Russia did two good things: Lada's and potatoes. Russia's obviously the best. Sign me up comrade!
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Don't forget, they're also good at making "America Great Again."
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----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67407
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Posted: August 24 2017 at 10:54 |
progaardvark wrote:
DoctorD wrote:
Well, I stand corrected. Russia did two good things: Lada's and potatoes. Russia's obviously the best. Sign me up comrade!
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Don't forget, they're also good at making "America Great Again." |
Indeed, it is nice that for once the two great nations stand united for one cause. :)
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Cosmiclawnmower
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2010
Location: West Country,UK
Status: Offline
Points: 3684
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Posted: August 24 2017 at 12:37 |
DoctorD wrote:
Cosmiclawnmower wrote:
DoctorD wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
^^
>Show me a good car developed under a socialist/communist regime. Pretty much any Lada of the soviet era. Durable, starts in any conditions, simple enough to repair at home etc. |
What's the difference between a Lada and a golf ball?
You can drive a golf ball 200 metres
|
Ive owned both Russian Lada cars and Ural/ Dneiper Motorcycles; both were rugged and reliable and could be fixed at home using basic tools; They came with their own extensive tool kits and were designed to cope with extremes of climate. Even during the 70's and 80's cars in Europe, Japan & America were being manufactured to be more and more complex and less and less accessible for the home mechanic, thus creating a monopoly amongst the dealerships to force even the simplest jobs to be done by them at inflated prices and make us less and less able to do these things for ourselves. So one thing Capitalism certainly aims to do is make us individually less reliant on our own skills and initiative. Another fantastic initiative that came out of Soviet Russia was a breeding programme for Potato varieties that are highly disease resistant and highly productive in extremely low input systems (water, fertilizer etc) which may not seem very exciting but looking at how important the humble potato is in the world diet and how just about every other breeding programme has relied on either genetic modification combined with higher and more chemical reliant inputs.
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Well, I stand corrected. Russia did two good things: Lada's and potatoes. Russia's obviously the best. Sign me up comrade!
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