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Blacksword 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
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 Topic: Would you fight for your country..
Posted: August 18 2016 at 03:20 |
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One morning a letter is delivered to your house. You have been called up to fight in some overseas conflict..
Regardless of your age etc, this is a hyperthetical question. What would your reaction be? Lets assume the penalty for refusing to fight was prison, not firing squad!
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Vompatti
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 03:51 |
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No, I'm both a pacifist and a coward, and I also can't think of anything worth fighting for.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 04:19 |
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I'm a pacifist but any attempt at claiming to be conscientious objector would fail miserably because I have spent all my working life either in the defence industry or on the periphery of it, however, that would not stop me from trying. I don't regard the apparent dichotomy of enabling the production of weapons of defence against the reluctance to use them as weapons of aggression as being a moral dilemma that pricks my conscience. In all philosophical moral dilemma arguments I've always favoured 'a third option' as being the only viable alternative - the only morally acceptable result of a war is where no one dies.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 04:33 |
Other: If I was 50 years younger, I would think about it, but would probably say no anyway. 
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
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Points: 13635
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 05:20 |
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Good poll, and a difficult question for yours truly, because as a callow yoof, I joined the RAF, not that it lasted particularly long.
As I have grown up, I have seen the utter futility, and waste of life, of politically or economically motivated wars. There is a difference between such ventures and genuine threats such as fascist dictators invading you, or mad mullahs threatening your way of life.
I think at 51 I am too old to be called up now anyway. If not, then I would plead a reserved occupation. I mean, every society needs a tax inspector in both times of war and peace, surely?
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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zappaholic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Location: flyover country
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Points: 2822
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 05:51 |
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Vietnam and Lebanon are other people's wars
I won't fight unless it's right, corporate wars no more
I believe this country's worth my life to help defend
I won't fight to help keep the Dow Jones out of the red
~ Nuclear Assault, "Fight To Be Free", 1988
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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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someone_else
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 06:03 |
This is a rather tough one and I am grateful to know that this question will linger on the hypothetical plane rather than thumping on my door in real life. As a youth I escaped being forced into military service by being born in 1959 and I still hope that the choice between giving them hell and enduring captivity will stay far from me in my lifetime.
I choose the "Other" option. The answer is probably NO. Not because I am a pacifist or a coward, in fact I am a bit pacifist and quite a coward. It is more because, as a domestic pig, I would hate to be dragged in an overseas conflict taking place a few thousand kilometers away from my sty. Oil? Europe has prostituted itself for 41 years because of this. Protect Israel? OK, that would be a worthier cause. Direct threats? My country is suffering more and more from these, our own leaders are not the least of threats.
Edited by someone_else - August 18 2016 at 07:39
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 06:08 |
In some government office filed away in a dark cabinet or microfiched on a fading bit of film that never quite made it to the computer age, is my draft card, which I was required to sign when I was 18. On the back, in prominent letters I wrote how I objected to war and signing a draft card in the first place. But although I must have thought I was quite bold for declaring my disavowal of war in all my teenage rebelliousness, I look back and see that they were sentiments cheaply bought, considering I signed the draft card in 1978 when there was no actual war being fought, but it was still required by all red-blooded American 18 year-olds as part of some lingering hangover from Nixon and the Vietnam War.
But now, older and quite secure and heading towards possibly collecting my well-earned Social Security benefits (which I may or may not get, given the dysfunction of the government, but which I have dutifully paid for all the 40 years of my working life), I have a slightly different perspective. There are wars and then there are Wars. No war is good, of course, in that from an historical context rarely are there sufficient benefits to society to ever make up for the loss of life, the loss of limbs and the toll on the minds of those still suffering from service. So there better be a pretty damn good reason for declaring war, and looking back over the last century, I would count WWII as the only valid war fought for any reason other than self-aggrandizement, gain, muddled politics, abject stupidity, or a combination of all. And given the aftermath of WWII, they even screwed that up. I would jump to protect my home and family. But that is far different than chasing erstwhile peasant farmers through rice paddies and declaring the world safe for American democracy.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 06:11 |
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I should probably give my answer as it's my poll. I would fight if there was a direct and proven threat to my country. I wouldn't go to fight in the desert for a geo-political strategy dressed up as a humanitarian interventions, as most of our Middle East entanglements have been in my humble opinion.
I'm certainly not a pacifist. If we define [pacifism as the rejection of ALL violence then that includes self defence and the protection of loved ones from the violence of others, but the definition is not that clear and is often used only in relation to 'international disputes' Discuss..?
Also, I was quite specific in this poll about it being an overseas conflict, but what if your country was being invaded. Does that change anyones position?
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 06:25 |
 Blacksword wrote:
I'm certainly not a pacifist. If we define [pacifism as the rejection of ALL violence then that includes self defence and the protection of loved ones from the violence of others, but the definition is not that clear and is often used only in relation to 'international disputes' Discuss..?
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Well, no. Pacifist and Pacifism is specifically about making peace and averting warfare, and are only applied to all acts of violence in general non-specific terms as a consequence of that. Etymologically they are derived from "to pacify" meaning "to make peace" so any connotations of that are directly related to the belief that war and violence are unjustifiable and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means. Geography and national boundaries are not relevant here as one can object to fighting on foreign soil without having any pacifistic ideals.
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What?
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
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Points: 65760
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 07:04 |
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I'd rather eat lead than kill for this country tbh
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TeleStrat
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Joined: December 27 2014
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 07:06 |
I don't know about other countries but in the US the draft stopped in 1973. I was drafted and reported to the Induction Center in Los Angeles on August 19, 1969. The poll options are interesting as far as discussion goes but none of them mattered back when young men were being drafted. If you were 1A and received your notice you had three choices; report for duty, go to jail, move to Canada.
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator
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Joined: November 29 2006
Location: Israel
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 07:28 |
Yes even if just to protect Israel 
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Mascodagama
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Joined: December 30 2006
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 07:54 |
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If they are so desperate they have to ask me then we are f**ked already.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 08:16 |
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Only if free music was added on to the Constitution
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 08:50 |
No I wouldn't.
Unless they give me a lot of stimulants.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 09:40 |
TeleStrat wrote:
I don't know about other countries but in the US the draft stopped in 1973. I was drafted and reported to the Induction Center in Los Angeles on August 19, 1969. The poll options are interesting as far as discussion goes but none of them mattered back when young men were being drafted. If you were 1A and received your notice you had three choices; report for duty, go to jail, move to Canada.
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Because conscription is a legal thing it obviously varies from country to country so the alternatives offered to conscientious objectors also vary. In the UK conscription ended in 1960 with the last conscripted men being discharged in 1963 - prison was never a choice for those sent conscription orders. Conscientious objectors faced a military service tribunal with four possible outcomes: full exemption, exemption conditional on alternative service, exemption only from combatant duties, or dismiss of the application for exemption. It was only the last outcome that could lead to a prison sentence as those whose application for exemption was dismissed were automatically enlisted into one of the armed services so any further protest or abstention would be treated as disobeying a direct order and subject to court martial.
This is one of the few "serious" things I ever talked about with my dad back in the late 60s as he had a somewhat positive view on National Service even though he had a jaded view on authoritarianism and the unfair privileges of rank. In an effort to dissuade any thoughts I may have had about peace and love and all that hippy crap he related the story of how a 'conchie' who had been enlisted at the same time has him was treated by officers and enlisted men - where this kid would be escorted from the guardhouse each morning to muster with the rest of them, was presented with a uniform which each morning he would refuse to pick up before being frogmarched back to the guardhouse, all the while being taunted and berated by the NCOs as a coward and disgrace to Queen and country in a continuous tirade of verbal abuse. My dad's reaction to this was a strange mix of contempt for anyone who refused to fight, contempt for how the guy was continually subjected to public humiliation and a begrudging respect for anyone who stood up for their beliefs. From that moment on he never saw conscientious objectors as cowards, quite the contrary. He told me straight that I'd never be strong enough to cope with that and I would put on the uniform (and I fear he was probably right).
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Ozark Soundscape
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2014
Location: not here
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Points: 2360
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 10:18 |
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I'm a diabetic so they wouldn't let me in. But even if they would I wouldn't. The USA's military activity of the past 50 years has been questionable to say the least, and a military draft is an absolutely disgusting concept - I could never support a country that had an active one in place.
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Polymorphia
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Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
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Points: 8856
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 11:00 |
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I don't know, honestly. I don't even really know my own stance on war for certain, much less the specific ones for which I'd be drafted.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: August 18 2016 at 11:01 |
One of the options that was available to conscientious objectors was exemption only from combatant duties, which included many (many) roles within the armed services such as stores and materiel movements, pay-role, airfield ground-crew and medics, and of course bomb disposal (over 400 Brit conscientious objectors volunteered for bomb disposal during WW2 and no one would question their bravery or call them cowards).
Given that the armed services are renowned for forcing square pegs into round holes I suspect that despite having been trained as an apprentice in all aspects of aircraft and airfield electronics since I left school at 16, if I were to be conscripted then airfield ground-crew would be the last place they'd actually put me.
Edited by Dean - August 18 2016 at 11:02
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Would you fight for your country..
