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silverpot View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 19:21
Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.


I think that's a good observation. Most metal fans know they're metal fans and spend their hard earned cash on paraphernalia and take part in the festivals devoted to metal music. For many it's a lifestyle.


Sure.  There is a notion of "being metal" which goes beyond listening to the music.  There is not much of a notion of "being prog" going beyond listening to the music.

Quote Whereas most prog fans have no idea that the kind of music they listen to is called prog. I certainly didn't until I found this board, neither did my friends until I told them. Wink


Huh?  Most prog bands are unknown to people who aren't aware of "prog".  There may be some Pink Floyd fans who aren't aware of "prog", and there may have been some Marillion fans in the 80s who weren't aware of "prog", but these days, most prog fans do have an idea that the kind of music they listen to is called "prog".  But this may vary by country; I can only speak of Germany here.


If you say prog in Sweden people associate it with something completely different, so yes, it does vary with country. I should have been clearer about that.


Edited by silverpot - March 09 2015 at 19:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 21:02
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.
 
ohhh dear ... baroque never had a culture! Romantic never had a culture! Surrealism never had a culture! Dadaism never had a culture! Metal'ism -- I guess, has something that the world has never seen or experienced ...
 
What kind of BS is that?
 
Welcome to the board, btw ... the comment is not meant to give you a scare! But you got to use your noodles!
 
 

We do not have to dig the depths of history to answer rather mundane questions.  What some of the folks here have said about metal vis a vis prog is true.  It is a lifestyle.  No, every metalhead doesn't have to have long hair or wear denims but the fact is if you go to a metal gig (and I mean 'pure', 'tr00' metal like Slayer, not a band like Dream Theater where progheads might turn up), most of the audience would be in 'metal wear'.  Most will be headbanging, most will jump into the moshpit, etc.  Prog has never been about a lifestyle.  Some of the bands like ELP may have enjoyed a lavish lifestyle in the 70s but it didn't automatically imply that progheads needed to be flamboyant too.  Prog attire was and is either intentionally outrageous (as in Gabriel's costumes) or entirely non descript, sometimes even old fashioned.  The fact is since the birth of rock, the 15-24 thereabouts demographic has become very important for the music industry to ensure commercial success of their records.  Such thinking percolates to the underground too; it is not immune to it.  The fact is metal's lifestyle appeal draws in a lot of youngsters.  Not solely the lifestyle, sure, but many who are at first drawn to the music also buy into the lifestyle and the famous metal motto of "Stay metal" (alternatively, "Stay brutal").  One of my friends resisted cutting his hair to satisfy his corporate masters for a long time because he saw it as having to go against his metal ideology or what have you.  What was the scenario with regard to baroque is really not relevant here because you didn't have worldwide distribution of recorded music and you didn't have worldwide avenues of promotion like TV and internet.  Even if the music biz has always existed, it now operates more in the fashion of a transnational conglomerate and the music itself is not immune to the implications of that.  Music being regarded as 'hip' is important because whether the music is 'good' or not is surely not a question with a definite answer and varies too much from person to person.  Hipness on the other hand can be spread through aspiration and peer pressure.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 04:49
I got the impression that progressive rock was initially part of the same overall cultural moment as the psychedelic movement it branched off from, which did have a subculture or two of its own associated with it in the Beat Generation and the Hippie Movement that a whole set of philosophical and spiritual ideals as well as a certain visual aesthetic came as part of. This is, as far as I recall, what the Rock In Opposition movement tried to preserve in reaction to the commercialization of progressive music and get back to its original avant-garde ethos but even that tells that most of progressive rock had kind of separated from the psychedelic culture's origins at some point with the two being separate scenes that just overlapped a bit in places.

Of course, all that stuff stopped having much of an influence on the mainstream culture at large by the late 1970s if not the early 1980s by then, before I think it saw a revival of sorts in the 1990s? Even then it's now for the most part something that plenty of cultural history books, newspaper columns and documentaries get made about but nowhere as many people actively identify with as metal, punk, hiphop, goth etc. at least if you ask people my age around here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 10:17
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I got the impression that progressive rock was initially part of the same overall cultural moment as the psychedelic movement it branched off from, which did have a subculture or two of its own associated with it in the Beat Generation and the Hippie Movement that a whole set of philosophical and spiritual ideals as well as a certain visual aesthetic came as part of.


Yes.  Classical progressive rock was part of (the English wing of) what is widely known as "the Counterculture" (read, for instance, Macan, Rocking the Classic), which of course was in many ways different in different countries, yet all those movements had something in common, namely a post-materialist progressive outlook (a drive to better the quality of life - and not only the material standard of living! - of the entire human race).  This is most visible in Yes, but plays a role in prog as general.  "The Counterculture", however, faltered in the early 70s, though not without serving as a recruiting field of "Green" and left-wing political movements, leaving prog without a viable subcultural substructure, which may be one of the reasons why prog fell out of favour in the late 70s.

Quote This is, as far as I recall, what the Rock In Opposition movement tried to preserve in reaction to the commercialization of progressive music and get back to its original avant-garde ethos but even that tells that most of progressive rock had kind of separated from the psychedelic culture's origins at some point with the two being separate scenes that just overlapped a bit in places.


I think this is true.  Some people saw classical progressive rock as a commercialization of the psychedelic-avant-garde "real thing".  There may be something to that, sure; it was easier in the early 70s to sell multimovement suites than LP-side-long noodlings on a single chord.  Of course, the latter is IMHO hardly endurable without taking "psychedelic" drugs, and we all know what a sham those drugs were and still are.

Quote Of course, all that stuff stopped having much of an influence on the mainstream culture at large by the late 1970s if not the early 1980s by then, before I think it saw a revival of sorts in the 1990s? Even then it's now for the most part something that plenty of cultural history books, newspaper columns and documentaries get made about but nowhere as many people actively identify with as metal, punk, hiphop, goth etc. at least if you ask people my age around here.


Sure.  Of course, metal, punk, hip-hip, goth etc. all have a stronger "provocation value" than prog.  They sound "ugly" to the average person who is not involved with the relevant scene, and are therefore better suited to the "ressentiment listener" who uses music to show his discord with the mainstream.  Most kinds of progressive rock do not really afford that.  I remember how in '88, my grandmother entered my room while I was listening to Marillion, and said that the music was "beautiful".  Those of my classmates who listened to Slayer or Public Enemy certainly did not hear that from their grandmothers!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 12:24

Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

(The impression is almost correct, though using the word "correct" ... might not be the right one, but it's close enough!)

Yes.  Classical progressive rock was part of (the English wing of) what is widely known as "the Counterculture" (read, for instance, Macan, Rocking the Classic), which of course was in many ways different in different countries, yet all those movements had something in common, namely a post-materialist progressive outlook (a drive to better the quality of life - and not only the material standard of living! - of the entire human race).
...

NICE ... very nice ... and you can go to Germany, France, Italy, America and England and it's all there!

Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:


...   This is most visible in Yes, but plays a role in prog as general.  "The Counterculture", however, faltered in the early 70s, though not without serving as a recruiting field of "Green" and left-wing political movements, leaving prog without a viable subcultural substructure, which may be one of the reasons why prog fell out of favour in the late 70s.
...

... you ready? ... it faltered, and even Peter Gabriel sang about it (SEBTP) ... so you know how fast it started falling apart, but in my book, it didn't help that PG was feeling frustrated by it all, and not wanting to go further with it. And the LLDOB is the rest of it. QUIT! DIE! OVER!

I think that "prog" continued, but it was not just as "popular" and by that time the "giants" of progressive had gone pop anyway, and it made it look like the scene died, when in fact, it NEVER DIED ... except in England ... which has made me want to say that it was a media thing in London all along, and the realities wwere slightly buried in words, that most folks would not even know what they meant? ... something silly like that! The 80's was full of new stuff ... but the problem is that we "thought" that there was only one GOD that could show us the way! And this is the main issue ... we refuse to accept that "GOD" has many names in many different cultures and that music -- progressive or not -- is also elsewhere.

This, believe it or not, is a very important pretext for this discussion, albeit one that could become incendiary real quick and shouldn't ... but it is just another example, of how we do not believe that there is a world at the end of the ... FLAT ... ocean that has been keeping away from ........................ ????

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 15:11
Indeed, prog never died - it only fell out of favour and was considered "uncool".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 15:18
^Your right. It's still dying. Clown
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 15:24
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I got the impression that progressive rock was initially part of the same overall cultural moment as the psychedelic movement it branched off from, which did have a subculture or two of its own associated with it in the Beat Generation and the Hippie Movement that a whole set of philosophical and spiritual ideals as well as a certain visual aesthetic came as part of.
One of the few things that I think I agree with Bill Bruford on is the Prog was initially part of an oppositional music subculture until the "Intelligentsia" got a hold of it and claimed Prog for their own. Like pirate's capturing a ship.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 10:52
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

... you ready? ... it faltered, and even Peter Gabriel sang about it (SEBTP) ... so you know how fast it started falling apart, but in my book, it didn't help that PG was feeling frustrated by it all, and not wanting to go further with it. And the LLDOB is the rest of it. QUIT! DIE! OVER!

I think that "prog" continued, but it was not just as "popular" and by that time the "giants" of progressive had gone pop anyway, and it made it look like the scene died, when in fact, it NEVER DIED ... except in England ... which has made me want to say that it was a media thing in London all along, and the realities wwere slightly buried in words, that most folks would not even know what they meant? ... something silly like that! The 80's was full of new stuff ... but the problem is that we "thought" that there was only one GOD that could show us the way! And this is the main issue ... we refuse to accept that "GOD" has many names in many different cultures and that music -- progressive or not -- is also elsewhere.

...

 
I wrote this BEFORE I read that section in the Robert Wyatt book ... guess what ... it would be political pressures and what not that would help many people think that "progressive" died ... when in fact the social/political times in England changed so hard that it affect people subtly! And caused the arts to change as well! It might be possible to say that Robert is overly sensitive to it, but his examples friends make it very clear that things change ... for something else.


Edited by moshkito - March 13 2015 at 10:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 21:25
For whatever reason, more people like prog than metal? Doesn't make it better or worse, but that might just be the way it is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 07:29

The metal "industry" is better at self-promotion because it's easier to promote.  It's easier for advertisers to reference ideas or things that are stereotypically "metal" than it is to do the same thing for prog.  Of course, prog is, almost by definition, not stereotypical.  Progressive music evolves and requires active, prolonged attention to fully appreciate.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 10:30
Certainly, prog is a more "difficult" product to market than metal, partly because it is less stereotypical, partly because the audience is less "visible" (since the fall of the Counterculture in the mid-70s, prog is pretty much without subcultural substructure - but it gets along pretty well without it), partly, of course, because prog is more complex and sophisticated than most metal.  On the other hand, prog is less divisive than metal (as I already said earlier) - there is much less debate about what constitutes "true prog" than there is what constitutes "true metal", and there are more named metal sub-genres than there are named prog sub-genres (I say "named sub-genres" rather than just "sub-genres" because sub-genres cannot easily be counted), despite the fact that there is at least as much diversity in prog as there is in metal - and yet, progheads get along with fewer sub-genre names than metalheads.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 10:40
Originally posted by thwok thwok wrote:

The metal "industry" is better at self-promotion because it's easier to promote.  It's easier for advertisers to reference ideas or things that are stereotypically "metal" than it is to do the same thing for prog.  

True, metal has the horns, the leather, the denim, the patches. 

Prog has, er...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 11:43

On my end, I'm witnessing many sights to be seen through "hands on" situations. Metal is very huge and it did develop over the course of time to be an empire and as said earlier in a post, this reasonably sized subculture was in fact completely vast for me personally when I traveled the road in the 80's. Regarding the fore-front of image, it was a bit like "Rock n' Roll" where you dressed up and your face belonged to a make up artist for about 30 minutesShocked  But in any event, the mentality of theater in Rock was part of the Metal presentation which dated back to Little Richard days. On a personal note ..a percentage of Metal was completely contrived and this all began with the promotion department. Many Metal bands were sincere about their music and that's all that mattered.


It was very corporate on different scales and went skyrocketing in the 80's because the music dealt with the occult. If you watch the film "River's Edge"...you can gather some insight on the mentality of the youth and Metal music during the 80's regarding how a somewhat contrived "in scene" interest in Devil worship derived from the lyricism of Metal. Prog had a huge impact on the youth of the 70's, but the Metal youth of the late 70's and 80's were ready for some dark rebellious act to follow along with a style of music that had an underground scene which they were attracted to. Some of the bands were sincere, but I shake my head in disbelief when I recall record executives forcing my friends to follow the art department's example for an album cover. I had some good friends in Metal bands who were signed to major labels and they were futile over the record company not allowing them to have a normal picture/photograph of the band. Instead ...they were being forced to take on a cover created by the art department that displayed violence against children. A lot of it was sexual and not too distant from what the "Children Of God" would practice.


This social environment was not of the Prog world or the Prog community/movement in any sense. A few Prog bands of the early 70's crossed into Metal territory or in the premature sense of music development to Metal, but weren't going full scale as to promote the occult. Lucifer's Friend were Classically trained musicians with an English vocalist John Lawton. The idea then..was projecting what King Crimson had done in 1970 with a dark subject, yet the band was important to the underground Metal scene of the 80's because of how they formed different ideas in the area of playing, just as Ritchie Blackmore had produced on "In "Rock". Metal became a huge spectacular event through media coverage of the "Satanic Panic" era. That is a far cry from the reputation of Prog. This was more like a fad and getting the youth interested in bizarre, disturbing album covers and ultimately interested in worshipping the devil or practicing witchcraft. It was a fad. It was also brainwashing to the youth and today...that's evident to the kids who lived through it, made bad choices, and look back on it as negative, disturbing, and even moronic. This is a far cry from the crowd that Prog musicians played for.  

 
It was like opening up the essence of Devil worship with the nudity and a mixture of violence toward children as they were often presented as a sacrificial object. They just wanted to make the subject as open as they could to profit and that lacked interest to a degree because it was presenting product with an "in your face" approach and therefore it was insulting and rather annoying as opposed to feeling in a dark mood, playing some Art Zoyd and enjoying the mystery of life.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 12:22
Because "metal" is product which can be shifted to the gullible, whilst "prog" involves much more listener input. 

Heavy Metal is sh*te. No other word for it. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 13:42
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Because "metal" is product which can be shifted to the gullible, whilst "prog" involves much more listener input. 

Heavy Metal is sh*te. No other word for it. 
 
But the interesting thing about Metal is that you have to develop technique to play it. I discovered long ago that a great deal of the repeated guitar lines derive from Paganini's 24 caprices. Many of us dislike the style and not consider that Metal music requires practice and especially on guitar. People often think that because they can separate different styles of Metal, that they can also separate the chemistry in the music and it is simply not true. Metal is a formula that is based around every different approach to the style itself. It expands from there and some of it is composed rather well, but it's so stylistically different from Prog because of it's driving force of heaviness in sound. It can be complex...but with emphasis placed more on volume. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 15:22
So, in a nutshell:
Metal = sh*t crapped by Satanic mass media owners and distributed to children and retards with no musical education and some hearing difficulties.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 21:29
OK at the risk of repeating myself possibly - it's because prog isn't an industry like metal...

If prog were more industrial, perhaps it would have succeeded more...


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 24 2015 at 21:31
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 21:31
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

So, in a nutshell:
Metal = sh*t crapped by Satanic mass media owners and distributed to children and retards with no musical education and some hearing difficulties.


 
A percentage of it is..yes. But again, a percentage of Progressive Rock in the mid to late 70's was commercially contrived garbage as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 05:29
People who don't like evil music are delusional floating in clouds, the wisp of the tree and the chirrup of the finch. Life is not fairytale, only death is real, if you're deaf to death you're deaf to life.
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