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SteveG 
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 Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:59 |
 Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^This is another tricky part of the puzzle, the way the music media jumped on the punk band wagon without thinking for a single second. But it's secondary for the reason for punk's origins, is it not? |
Yes, but I have not spoken of Punk's origins, that to me is immaterial. This topic is related to what came after since Punk per se was not a logical extension of Prog in they way that post-punk new-wave was. Even what little Punk remained became detached from its disaffected and rebellious blue-collar beginnings.
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You did not speak directly about punk's origins, but anyone who read
70s-80's trade publications would be aware of it's origins. In your case, by proxy, as you yourself stated that you discovered the twisted reporting of punk's growth in these music magazines. Is this not relevant to the OP's question?
Edited by SteveG - March 06 2015 at 10:00
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:11 |
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^This is another tricky part of the puzzle, the way the music media jumped on the punk band wagon without thinking for a single second. But it's secondary for the reason for punk's origins, is it not? |
Yes, but I have not spoken of Punk's origins, that to me is immaterial. This topic is related to what came after since Punk per se was not a logical extension of Prog in they way that post-punk new-wave was. Even what little Punk remained became detached from its disaffected and rebellious blue-collar beginnings.
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You did not speak directly about punk's origins, but anyone who read
70s-80's trade publications would be aware of it's origins. In your case, by proxy, as you yourself stated that you discovered the twisted reporting of punk's growth in these music magazines. Is this not relevant to the OP's question?
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Growth yes, origins no.
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What?
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:18 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Why do you defend the natural inclination of any subsequent demographic to reject the values of the previous regime as evidenced by music journalism? Not all of us are 'suckered in' by someone who is paid to pronounce that popularity = death of credibility. If you were a regular reader of both NME and Sounds circa early 70's to late 80's (that's 20 years stubborn refusal to bow to peer group pressure, way to go boyo) is this somewhow indicative that cherry picking to conclude that music you profess to loathe is popular therefore it sucks?. How exactly do bands pander to journalists to become more popular? Are immoral acts inveigled in this scenario?
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Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. In another thread I suggested that the apparent trend of music to skip a generation was a generalisation. We are not all born into discrete demographics or generations that can be nicely compartmentalised and pigeon-holed, just as the music scene didn't instantly change from 70s music to 80s music at the stroke of midnight on 31st December 1979.
I do not profess anything, nor do I accuse the music journalists of cherry-picking, backlashes were common at the time, it was practically a national sport and had been for as long as I can remember, the phrase "sell out" had been levelled at artists since the 60s. While I never said that bands pander to journalists to become more popular, snubbing a journalist was never a good career move unless your continued success and popularity was assured, and even then it could be unwise.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:22 |
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^This is another tricky part of the puzzle, the way the music media jumped on the punk band wagon without thinking for a single second. But it's secondary for the reason for punk's origins, is it not? |
Yes, but I have not spoken of Punk's origins, that to me is immaterial. This topic is related to what came after since Punk per se was not a logical extension of Prog in they way that post-punk new-wave was. Even what little Punk remained became detached from its disaffected and rebellious blue-collar beginnings.
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You did not speak directly about punk's origins, but anyone who read
70s-80's trade publications would be aware of it's origins. In your case, by proxy, as you yourself stated that you discovered the twisted reporting of punk's growth in these music magazines. Is this not relevant to the OP's question?
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Growth yes, origins no. |
Now I'm not sure of what you're saying. If the punk movement had an origin, instead of being a musical outgrowth of some kind, which is what I've been hinting at, then punk not could not be a logical extention of prog. Agreed?
Edited by SteveG - March 06 2015 at 10:35
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:39 |
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^This is another tricky part of the puzzle, the way the music media jumped on the punk band wagon without thinking for a single second. But it's secondary for the reason for punk's origins, is it not? |
Yes, but I have not spoken of Punk's origins, that to me is immaterial. This topic is related to what came after since Punk per se was not a logical extension of Prog in they way that post-punk new-wave was. Even what little Punk remained became detached from its disaffected and rebellious blue-collar beginnings.
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You did not speak directly about punk's origins, but anyone who read
70s-80's trade publications would be aware of it's origins. In your case, by proxy, as you yourself stated that you discovered the twisted reporting of punk's growth in these music magazines. Is this not relevant to the OP's question?
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Growth yes, origins no. |
Now I'm not sure of what you're saying. If the punk movement had an origin, which is what I've been hinting at, then punk not could not be a logical extention of prog. Agreed? |
Agreed. I have said it wasn't.
I think the confusion comes from the notion that Punk has a wider connotation than simply the music that emerged in 1976 and all but disappeared in the space of a few short months. By the time most of those early Punk bands came to record their début albums they too had moved on. What the general public saw as Punk Rock was in reality post-punk new wave.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:43 |
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^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them?
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The Truth
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:52 |
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I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap.
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:19 |
SteveG wrote:
^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them? |
Well, it certainly wasn't The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Dammed, The Ramones or Television.
I'm not sure if "real punk" ever fully existed, the DIY Punk ethos by its very anti-consumerism was destined to appeal to a very limited audience. Even later hardcore punk bands like Crass (formed in 1977, so I reserve the right to call them "later") were at the Performance-Art end of the DIY Punk spectrum.
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:28 |
The Truth wrote:
I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. |
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story.
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tamijo
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:41 |
This is the kind of debate that is very hard, because there is no objective defination to what is punk, proto punk, post punk ect. And there can be many different answers that could be subjectively correct. Based on where you live, what sources you had access to, and how you define your criteria. The Punk "movement" was not big is my homeland, but it was not only "punks" that did listen to the music. Few liked the Pistols, but there was a lot of people that liked The Clash, basicly because the music was better, and where I come is was quite normal that you like both Peter Gabriel, The Clash, Floyd Kate B, ect. No one was interested in defining genre, we just liked music, lots of diffrent music. I loved the early Pere Ubu albums back them, but i couldent care less if it was punk or prog.
Edited by tamijo - March 06 2015 at 11:43
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:54 |
tamijo wrote:
This is the kind of debate that is very hard, because there is no objective defination to what is punk, proto punk, post punk ect. And there can be many different answers that could be subjectively correct. Based on where you live, what sources you had access to, and how you define your criteria.The Punk "movement" was not big is my homeland, but it was not only "punks" that did listen to the music.Few liked the Pistols, but there was a lot of people that liked The Clash, basicly because the music was better, and where I come is was quite normal that you like both Peter Gabriel, The Clash, Floyd Kate B, ect. |
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
Edited by Svetonio - March 06 2015 at 11:56
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tamijo
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:04 |
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To answer the OP, there was a lot of diffrent music, not just Prog and Punk, and the turn into a simple and raw rock, was not unexpreted, and not new either. The new thing was that the press was pissing its pans over it this time.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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tamijo
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:13 |
Svetonio wrote:
tamijo wrote:
This is the kind of debate that is very hard, because there is no objective defination to what is punk, proto punk, post punk ect. And there can be many different answers that could be subjectively correct. Based on where you live, what sources you had access to, and how you define your criteria.The Punk "movement" was not big is my homeland, but it was not only "punks" that did listen to the music.Few liked the Pistols, but there was a lot of people that liked The Clash, basicly because the music was better, and where I come is was quite normal that you like both Peter Gabriel, The Clash, Floyd Kate B, ect. |
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
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In Copenhagen i think it was not much more than a few 100 punks in late 76-78, but is grew bigger when they (we) started Squatting, but that was in the 80's, and its was more "Cure and U2" than punk music, (but there was some punky music played)
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:26 |
tamijo wrote:
To answer the OP, there was a lot of diffrent music, not just Prog and Punk, (...) |
Of course, there was Funk, Disco, Disco-Funk, Funk-Rock, Pop Rock, Glam Rock, Adult Oriented Rock, Hard Rock and so on, but it was especially Prog that symbolized something for punks that they should be against. Well, it's not so difficult to imagine why 
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:37 |
tamijo wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
tamijo wrote:
This is the kind of debate that is very hard, because there is no objective defination to what is punk, proto punk, post punk ect. And there can be many different answers that could be subjectively correct. Based on where you live, what sources you had access to, and how you define your criteria.The Punk "movement" was not big is my homeland, but it was not only "punks" that did listen to the music.Few liked the Pistols, but there was a lot of people that liked The Clash, basicly because the music was better, and where I come is was quite normal that you like both Peter Gabriel, The Clash, Floyd Kate B, ect. |
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
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In Copenhagen i think it was not much more than a few 100 punks in late 76-78, but is grew bigger when they (we) started Squatting, but that was in the 80's, and its was more "Cure and U2" than punk music, (but there was some punky music played) |
Yes, of course that Punk was turn into Post-Punk so fast (imho, it was happen with London Calling the album which had a similar role as Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band toward 60s English rock) but that way of life, that movement, the kids who were following that punk fashion, it's all were still on the streets for years latter.
Edited by Svetonio - March 06 2015 at 12:38
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:50 |
Svetonio wrote:
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
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It is hard to see what effect the punk scene in Paris or the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had on Progressive Rock and vice versa, regardless of how big it was in those respective countries.
Yup, Punk was imported into the UK from New York. No one can deny that fact, and in fact, no one is claiming that Punk was invented in the UK, if it had been we would have probably called it Yob Rock.
The back-to-basics reaction to Prog in the UK prior to that was Pub Rock, as typified by Bees Make Honey, Dr Feelgood, The Stranglers, The 101ers, Ducks Deluxe et al. This was itself influenced by garage rock from the USA and British R&B of the 1960s. Wilko Johnson's staccato guitar playing was in turn influential on Tom Verlaine's guitar style... nothing is created in a vacuum.
The Punk scene in the UK and the music it spurned was radically different to that of the USA, just as British Psych developed in ways that USA Psych failed to do. Parisian Punk... whatever did that achieve?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:51 |
Svetonio wrote:
Yes, of course that Punk was turn into Post-Punk so fast (imho, it was happen with London Calling the album which had a similar role as Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band toward 60s English rock) but that way of life, that movement, the kids who were following that punk fashion, it's all were still on the streets for years latter.
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This is not about fashion, it's about music. Kate Moss wearing a punky t-shirt is NOT Punk Rock. ffs.
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The Truth
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:57 |
Dean wrote:
The Truth wrote:
I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. |
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story. |
I don't know, it seems as though tracks like the title track, Nobody's Business and Birthday Special certainly have punk-rock leanings. I think it was a little more than just the persona.
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 13:17 |
The Truth wrote:
Dean wrote:
The Truth wrote:
I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. |
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story. |
I don't know, it seems as though tracks like the title track, Nobody's Business and Birthday Special certainly have punk-rock leanings. I think it was a little more than just the persona. |
Hmm... it's been a while since I played the album but as I recall there is a lot more going on in those tracks than three-chord riffing. He may have been aware of the New York punk scene that was emerging at the time, though I'm not sure how or why he could have. But you could be right.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 06 2015 at 13:41 |
The Truth wrote:
Dean wrote:
The Truth wrote:
I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. |
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story. |
I don't know, it seems as though tracks like the title track, Nobody's Business and Birthday Special certainly have punk-rock leanings. I think it was a little more than just the persona. |
Punk rock leanings or American style Garage rock leanings?
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Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog?
