Has the flame finally gone out?

cstack3 wrote: Svetonio wrote: ^ You was written "If I want to go out and see live prog tomorrow night, I won't have many options". Well, if you are not resident in a major art & musical center as e.g. New York, London or Paris where every night something happens somewhere, you will hardly listen to some young, virtualy unknown but good prog rock band in a small town or a village and yet so often that you can just "go out and see live prog", simply because prog never was something like a pub rock.     If you or somebody else can not see a live prog rock band, say, 'down on the corner', and yet almost everynight, it is not a valid argument that "the flame has finally gone out". I can see that you want to prove it so feverishly but then have to find a valid argument for that. Do what I did.  Pick up a guitar or bass (or drumsticks or keyboards), listen, learn and play.   I've learned that there are tons of progressive musicians working in music stores, giving lessons, quietly practicing their craft.   Once I began looking, it wasn't hard to find kindred souls.

I agree with you 100% but personally I can't do that 'cause I'm just a fan

Guldbamsen wrote: (...) Before promoters and festivals are willing to support young prog bands, they need to know there is a crowd for it. Simple as. You don't put up a program of music, if it only attracts 7 people. (...)

Nah. They can't know in advance with certainty that some contemporary prog band will have no response from the audience; they just do not want to risk one dollar anymore because of that terrible fear of be deleted of managerial work in the corporation, and yet in combination with a desire for enormous profits, their consciousness, their awareness of the world around them, is clouded a long time ago.

Edited by Svetonio - December 20 2014 at 17:56

Guldbamsen wrote: It's a backwards way of looking at things. Before promoters and festivals are willing to support young prog bands, they need to know there is a crowd for it. Simple as. You don't put up a program of music, if it only attracts 7 people.

Skullhead wrote: I have found that speaking with young classical musicians, most of them have no interest in prog.  To me, it's critical that they do, because they should be the ones making it.  What is surprising is how many of them like modern hip hop and pop music.  Probably so they don't feel too alienated from their peers and culture.

Skullhead wrote: rogerthat wrote: Skullhead wrote: I have found that speaking with young classical musicians, most of them have no interest in prog.  To me, it's critical that they do, because they should be the ones making it.  What is surprising is how many of them like modern hip hop and pop music.  Probably so they don't feel too alienated from their peers and culture.  What initially drew me towards prog as a youth was the drumming.  The non rock syncopated playing that was more in line with jazz than rock.  But that fusion of backing big melodic complex structures with the feel of rhythmic jazz improvisation in the rhythm section was absolute magic.  I liked that the prog drum kits didn't limit themselves to the basic stripped down jazz kit, but could include endless colors of percussion ensemble and even roto toms.  Why not have more options?  The traditional jazz thinking of limiting the kit to kick, snare, high hat, ride, and two toms is pretty narrow minded thinking.  The rock guys had bigger kits, but the playing lacked any swing.  The defining element of prog for me is the drumming.  It's a jazz guy on a rock kit who is open to playing more that just jazz, but has the jazz chops for the odd metering and great hi hat work like Phil Collins, or Bruford did so well as many other prog drummers. The prog metal doesn't swing.  The drumming, while complex, lacks the feel and dynamic of a great prog drummer.  The early prog drummers were finger players, not arm players.  There is a technique taught in jazz circles about controlling the dynamic of the strike with the fingers, or controlling the bounce of the stick with the either the middle, ring or pinky fingers depending upon fulcrum and leverage points.  I don't see anyone doing that in prog or in metal.  It's more about loud and volume and arm and wrist playing.  A good drummer knows what I am getting at here. I am not a drummer but I am quite sure that both Gavin Harrison and Marco Minneman do that finger drumming stuff you talked about. I just saw Gavin playing with Fripp and he was showing exactly that kind of technique.  But not all of these prog drummers are doing that.

Edited by cstack3 - December 21 2014 at 14:51

Skullhead wrote: It's sad to think these acts like King Crimson will not be around much longer.  Ian Anderson, Yes, are still going... but how much longer?  As much as I like some of the second generation prog like Spock's or Flower Kings, that stuff sounds basically derivative of the 70's stuff. I miss the uniqueness and innovation of the great 70's prog acts.

You have to have a "new ears" for new prog.

Skullhead wrote: Svetonio wrote: Skullhead wrote: It's sad to think these acts like King Crimson will not be around much longer.  Ian Anderson, Yes, are still going... but how much longer?  As much as I like some of the second generation prog like Spock's or Flower Kings, that stuff sounds basically derivative of the 70's stuff. I miss the uniqueness and innovation of the great 70's prog acts.  You have to have a "new ears" for new prog. That would make sense... what are you focusing on?

I am always focused on a band that I'm currently listening; such band is often completely unknown to me as a new band that brought a new sensibility to me and then I listen with "new ears" which "grow" again with every new prog bands that I listen to.

It's easy to find the right musicians for your Prog band ..if they hear your demo and are simply interested. However..lack of funds will discourage those musicians..so you must go to them with a plan ready to be active. I disregard using a digital studio at home and instead, I look up some sound tech who mixed for Prog bands in the 70's and 80's. We already respect each other...but...now I must find something to offer this sound tech. Maybe a separate session I could do for him/her and in the end our session might cost less. Then comes the task of getting the band to perform live on a bill with other progressive bands. This usually takes place in the larger cities of my area and it's basically all the independent original Prog bands playing these little "hole in the wall" type joints and hardly getting paid enough for the gas money that takes them over the bridge. Some "rat holes" provide a house lightshow and soundman. This is very ideal because you get to keep your 20 dollars and buy a hot turkey sandwich at WAWA on the way home. In any event, you have to eat something because your driving over the bridge and the sun is shooting it's rays into your windshield and your face. Your ears are ringing because you just got off stage.


If you have to pay for a soundman..you'll be lucky to find one that works for a hundred dollars a night. This is taken into account if you own the P.A. and lights, but another problem presents itself and that is understanding the venues policies. They may demand for someone to arrive 3 hours prior to show time and set the P.A. and lights up. Someway, somehow,...you have to rise above "rat holes" and get on the theater circuit, playing your original Prog and taking chances. I've always managed to make contact with the most professional and sincere people who help me to accomplish this. I don't require a day job because I am in demand on different circuits and constantly working weddings, clubs, bars, and casinos. It's cool to run across someone I knew in the 70's from a once internationally known band and chat. This is more fun than the music we play and we are all very aware of that. I miss playing Prog in a live situation and hope 1 day to cross paths with a Prog band that is somewhat established, but if some entertainer that plays theaters asks me to travel to Holland..I must take that opportunity over the choice of Prog for the sake of my children. It's a scary... sometimes depressing business. If you are working with the right musicians, they will keep you positive...although you are always working/living in a world that is very separate from the norm that keeps Amercia's soft machine running.

cstack3 wrote: TODDLER wrote: cstack3 wrote: Guldbamsen wrote: It's a backwards way of looking at things. Before promoters and festivals are willing to support young prog bands, they need to know there is a crowd for it. Simple as. You don't put up a program of music, if it only attracts 7 people. I disagree.  I lived in Tulsa, OK which had a very underground prog music scene.  Lon Jones, one of Bob Fripp's first Guitar Craft students, had a little band called CAVU ("ceiling and visibility unlimited"), and he played some very tiny little crowds.  I joined as bassist, and we ended up playing some huge festivals. This is awesome! From road experience, my observation is that these are isolated events that occur in certain cities/places in the United States. That meaning of course..that it leaves a very huge portion of our country empty and distant from Prog socially. So...for me, I was more personally offended as a young 20 year old when that social break materialized. I obviously witnessed many Prog bands in the late 70's breaking up over this change of direction in business.   The first prog bands had notoriously difficult beginnings, including Genesis, Yes and King Crimson.  It's up to the musicians to persist with their artistic vision.  I'm not sure that today's youth have this drive, but I'm willing to bet there are still some examples out there.   You must be a "do it yourself" Progger. I've done the same , but sometimes it's hard to invest and lose everything in the end. When you take it that seriously and lose thousands over it...you become very discouraged and may run off and join a working Jazz trio. It's a crazy business ...some Prog musicians I know gave up and became farmers. Very strange indeed. I suppose they just couldn't take touring anymore. Thanks, Toddler!  I'm strictly a hobby musician, although plenty good enough to have hit the tour circuit.  If I had applied myself in my early 20's, I would have given Chris Squire a run for it!   I find that 70's style prog is notoriously easy to play, compared to be-bop jazz etc.  Stick a fuzz tone & volume pedal on a Les Paul, play a bunch of pentatonics & Devils Chords and VOILA!  Instant Fripp!

I'd love to hear you play one day. Let me know if there are vids of you.

Skullhead wrote: It's sad to think these acts like King Crimson will not be around much longer.  Ian Anderson, Yes, are still going... but how much longer?  As much as I like some of the second generation prog like Spock's or Flower Kings, that stuff sounds basically derivative of the 70's stuff. I miss the uniqueness and innovation of the great 70's prog acts.