Has the flame finally gone out?

I'm a huge Mike Oldfield fan! I've noticed on Ommadawn that his structure of music is in the Prog vain, but it's often not including a drum pattern in ALL sections  and if it did, more people would directly hear the style of Progressive Rock that they could identify with. For example, when he plays the bass parts on bass guitar, the sections if done differently with a full scale Prog band could easily fit the bill. However...he is an instrumentalist and sometimes in his music, he naturally creates a different sound within itself that SOMEHOW steers clear of a Progressive Rock formula. When he's recording all the instruments himself, it's most difficult to imagine his music being performed by a Prog band..such as Gentle Giant or Yes, but it actually isn't too far from being that in the musical sense. Vangelis was like that in the early days. Mike Oldfield and David Bedford were both progressive with their compositions. If the ambient sections of their pieces were replaced with the addition of drums and vocals dominantly , it would be very possible that their music would resemble the vision of pure Progressive Rock composition, but because he is an instrumentalist...that's not going to happen or even sometimes make that impression on anyone in particular.

Edited by TODDLER - November 26 2014 at 11:15

Maybe The flame has gone out for the dinosaurs of the 70's. But luckily, there are new interesting bands in post/alternative/progressive rock. 

Well, I just got (finally) the first Iamthemorning album, and indeed that's very refreshing. I don't know how prog most people will actually consider it, but I really liked it a lot. That piano is just wonderful. And it's wonderful to listen to all that great musicianship without the intent to show off, but just create beautiful music.

TODDLER wrote: I'm a huge Mike Oldfield fan! I've noticed on Ommadawn that his structure of music is in the Prog vain, but it's often not including a drum pattern in ALL sections  and if it did, more people would directly hear the style of Progressive Rock that they could identify with. For example, when he plays the bass parts on bass guitar, the sections if done differently with a full scale Prog band could easily fit the bill. However...he is an instrumentalist and sometimes in his music, he naturally creates a different sound within itself that SOMEHOW steers clear of a Progressive Rock formula. When he's recording all the instruments himself, it's most difficult to imagine his music being performed by a Prog band..such as Gentle Giant or Yes, but it actually isn't too far from being that in the musical sense. Vangelis was like that in the early days. Mike Oldfield and David Bedford were both progressive with their compositions. If the ambient sections of their pieces were replaced with the addition of drums and vocals dominantly , it would be very possible that their music would resemble the vision of pure Progressive Rock composition, but because he is an instrumentalist...that's not going to happen or even sometimes make that impression on anyone in particular.

Edited by richardh - November 29 2014 at 01:35

TODDLER wrote: I'm a huge Mike Oldfield fan! I've noticed on Ommadawn that his structure of music is in the Prog vain, but it's often not including a drum pattern in ALL sections  and if it did, more people would directly hear the style of Progressive Rock that they could identify with. ...

Careful here, because Mike is capable of doing rock'n'roll, but then his tendencies are much more classical than they are rock music oriented.

is it progressive? This is where the term is badly defined and designed.

Mike is working with about 10 to 15 to 20 staffs of music, or tracks, and he knows that the same thing can't be done on all of them (how boring and soooooooo rock'n'roll!!!!) and his sense is to do something different. This is the mark of a true composer!

TODDLER wrote: ... For example, when he plays the bass parts on bass guitar, the sections if done differently with a full scale Prog band could easily fit the bill. However...he is an instrumentalist and sometimes in his music, he naturally creates a different sound within itself that SOMEHOW steers clear of a Progressive Rock formula. When he's recording all the instruments himself, it's most difficult to imagine his music being performed by a Prog band.. ...

Where do you think most of "rock music" and "progressive music" came from?

They all came from the previous history of music ... that existed before they even learned their very first note! it follows that the majority of stuff that (anyone) would know would be something familiar to them, and that has been documented before.

My take on Mike is that "Tubular Bells" was more instinctive, and the rest a bit more composed, but by then he had a better sense of what to do and not do!

making the comment about GG or YES playing it is bizarre. You do know that in the early days, the preshow music for all YES shows was classical music, right? Probably due to Rick Wakeman I imagine, but even that should tell you about a massive connection with classical music!

TODDLER wrote: ... Vangelis was like that in the early days. Mike Oldfield and David Bedford were both progressive with their compositions. ...

I think this is incorrect. David Bedford was very classically minded and probably helped Mike learn music and composition. David is also in the earliest albums that Mike did with Kevin Ayers, and it was there that the 17 and 18 year old learned a lot of his craft. With David around, it probably helped make Kevin a bit more defined musically than otherwise.

Progressive is being mis-represented here in my book. It was, in many ways, a lot more "individualistic" than it was "progressive", but the compositional elements made themselves clear, although "Tubular Bells" was not as clear in "composition" as it was in a series of chord and note progressions, which could be considered rock music oriented and not classically minded at all. But this is not visible in Incantations, for example.

TODDLER wrote: ... it would be very possible that their music would resemble the vision of pure Progressive Rock composition, but because he is an instrumentalist...that's not going to happen or even sometimes make that impression on anyone in particular.

I think this is stretching it. Jon anderson might tell you something else. He did not put lyrics there because of the silence or whatever. My guess is that Jon already had this whole thing in his head before the others got a whiff of it, and they helped make it monumental is more than likely. The same goes for Ian anderson. I doubt that the music comes first in most of his work ... I think he might even tell them to go like this and like that ... it's what the musicians do to the rest of it that helps define it even better, and this is where Gentle Giant is so massive, but even Gary has stated several times ... we never wrote anything down ... it was just fun playing all these different things! .... but we can not conceive of that possibility, and perhaps that is where we go wrong?

I am far from being as drastic as Surrealist, but he has some points. I believe that much of the magic of classic Prog came by 'the lucky arrangement of the stars'.

moshkito wrote: TODDLER wrote: I'm a huge Mike Oldfield fan! I've noticed on Ommadawn that his structure of music is in the Prog vain, but it's often not including a drum pattern in ALL sections  and if it did, more people would directly hear the style of Progressive Rock that they could identify with. ... Careful here, because Mike is capable of doing rock'n'roll, but then his tendencies are much more classical than they are rock music oriented. is it progressive? This is where the term is badly defined and designed. Mike is working with about 10 to 15 to 20 staffs of music, or tracks, and he knows that the same thing can't be done on all of them (how boring and soooooooo rock'n'roll!!!!) and his sense is to do something different. This is the mark of a true composer! TODDLER wrote: ... For example, when he plays the bass parts on bass guitar, the sections if done differently with a full scale Prog band could easily fit the bill. However...he is an instrumentalist and sometimes in his music, he naturally creates a different sound within itself that SOMEHOW steers clear of a Progressive Rock formula. When he's recording all the instruments himself, it's most difficult to imagine his music being performed by a Prog band.. ... Where do you think most of "rock music" and "progressive music" came from? They all came from the previous history of music ... that existed before they even learned their very first note! it follows that the majority of stuff that (anyone) would know would be something familiar to them, and that has been documented before. My take on Mike is that "Tubular Bells" was more instinctive, and the rest a bit more composed, but by then he had a better sense of what to do and not do! making the comment about GG or YES playing it is bizarre. You do know that in the early days, the preshow music for all YES shows was classical music, right? Probably due to Rick Wakeman I imagine, but even that should tell you about a massive connection with classical music! TODDLER wrote: ... Vangelis was like that in the early days. Mike Oldfield and David Bedford were both progressive with their compositions. ... I think this is incorrect. David Bedford was very classically minded and probably helped Mike learn music and composition. David is also in the earliest albums that Mike did with Kevin Ayers, and it was there that the 17 and 18 year old learned a lot of his craft. With David around, it probably helped make Kevin a bit more defined musically than otherwise. Progressive is being mis-represented here in my book. It was, in many ways, a lot more "individualistic" than it was "progressive", but the compositional elements made themselves clear, although "Tubular Bells" was not as clear in "composition" as it was in a series of chord and note progressions, which could be considered rock music oriented and not classically minded at all. But this is not visible in Incantations, for example. TODDLER wrote: ... it would be very possible that their music would resemble the vision of pure Progressive Rock composition, but because he is an instrumentalist...that's not going to happen or even sometimes make that impression on anyone in particular. I think this is stretching it. Jon anderson might tell you something else. He did not put lyrics there because of the silence or whatever. My guess is that Jon already had this whole thing in his head before the others got a whiff of it, and they helped make it monumental is more than likely. The same goes for Ian anderson. I doubt that the music comes first in most of his work ... I think he might even tell them to go like this and like that ... it's what the musicians do to the rest of it that helps define it even better, and this is where Gentle Giant is so massive, but even Gary has stated several times ... we never wrote anything down ... it was just fun playing all these different things! .... but we can not conceive of that possibility, and perhaps that is where we go wrong?

Metalmarsh89 wrote: moshkito wrote: Salt and pepper is the American way, but that's way too boring in Europe! Talk about your over generalization.

 

Jethro Tull in the early days sort of mixed up  Blues, Jazz, Folk, Classical styles of music and upon first hearing their music...and having a better understanding of it, you would have to research it first by entering the public library. It would take considerable amounts of time to investigate music that derived from other cultures or even in our own which musically developed it's own voice by combining music FROM those other cultures.  No computers and the idea/dream of having a "pop up" square shaped message box on your computer screen to inform you that "here I am, click me and you'll be there too" really compares to the teenager of the 1930's who tells his family that one day we are going to land on the moon. 

Edited by TODDLER - December 03 2014 at 09:22

I grew up with the all time greats and have an open mind but have struggled at times to find new music in the prog genre that I feel matches the best of the 70's.I do think their flames have gone out and we and they only hope to catch fire again.But overall it seems to recreate the magic is something beyond obtainable.
The only place I have found new music that gets close is in the space/psychedelic area.Some cool bands to be found.But I am open to any suggestions on music that is progressive and powerful without being to overly metal.What I liked about bands like Yes and Elp were some of the heavy duty keys to go along with the guitars.Where the keyboards are aggressive and melodic.Niacin is one band that has that attitude and musicianship.
I think prog can make a comeback based on the foundation laid down in the past.One of the biggest hurdles may be the attention spans of a lot of people. in an age of iPods where music is on the go,how many people want to sit down and stop and listen to a 30 plus minutes piece? Used to be you put on a record on and sat down and listened to it.Even myself find it hard to get a whole album listening in one time done.