The Most Influential

All artists here are influential, but I'll vote for King Crimson.

I couldn't decide on what basis to judge influence. Zappa has always been influential on various musical levels, and in bringing forth and training a whole host of talented musicians. Few bands I can think of that try to capture an overall Zappa sound, though. King Crimson motivated a lot of bands to pursue Symphonic Prog in a very general sense, but in the end, the only thing that sounds like ITCOCK is In the Wake of Poseidon. Jethro Tull sparked the pairing of flute with crunchy guitar early on with Focus and Jade Warrior, but that influence continues to be felt nowadays only here at PA. I don't have any idea who Pink Floyd influenced. Maybe there's a good answer in one of the posts that I frankly haven't read (I've been short on time lately). I voted for Genesis based on it's influence on Marillion, TFK, Big Big Train, and so on. Also based on its large number of tribute bands. I don't know that this is the best answer.

^All the artists in the poll are on PA so it felt like the proper place for it. But I thought it more interesting to discuss those artists influence in general rather than who's to blame for Neo-Prog. 

The soundscapes with those deep and heavy riffs often in combination with gloomy melancholic washes of mellotron that we hear in King Crimson 1973-74 (Red in particular) is one of the most distinctly recoginzable sounds or effects we hear in prog since the genre had its revival in the early 90's with Anglagard/Anekdoten and on. This can also be found in plenty of modern rockoriented jazz. 

I do however agree that an awful amount of bad progvocalists ruins plenty of potentially great albums doing their Peter Gabriel-with-a-serious-constipation-problem-soundalike singing (especially among the second tier RPI-groups).

Edited by Saperlipopette! - October 28 2014 at 14:30

Roxy Music should be in the poll, as they are quite influencial, in the 80s, and also some prog and glam bands vere inspired by them, even David Bowie!

Edited by Icarium - October 28 2014 at 10:03

richardh wrote: Prog_Traveller wrote: Genesis have the illusion of being more influential than other bands because they had a sound that was easier to imitate(easier to imitate than say Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson or VDGG for example). what makes it easier?

I'll take a stab at that Richard

not everyone can be Squire, nor Emerson, nor Bruford. Musicians whose immense talent their bands revolved around.  Genesis had for lack of a better word, a bit of a generic, perhaps a better word for it is an understated sound that unlike many of their peers did not emphasize stellar chops and scream virtuosity.  They emphasized a group sound more than being built around talents that very few could really emulate.  It is one thing to learn to play one's music, to copy a group's sound, many keyboardists can Emerson's stuff. The first thing I learned on bass was something by Rush.  The brilliance with them and those musicians (thus the groups) is not the actual talent and how they played but what they played ..the ability to use that talent and create music to stand the test of time. That is why in particular Emerson and ELP is highly regarded and influential... so infrequently emulated as the singular lead of a group. You have to have MAJOR stones and talent to carry that off. Not everyone can do that. Genesis though..  much easier I suppose to emulate in sound. It is .. well... just there. Very non disinct.

Genesis have the illusion of being more influential than other bands because they had a sound that was easier to imitate(easier to imitate than say Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson or VDGG for example).

richardh wrote: micky wrote: richardh wrote: micky wrote: when talking prog bands and influence it is an important distinction between just what they are influencing. I think I did confuse myself in my last post. It is easy to flip between talking prog influence and wider influence. I was obviously talking of Genesis's influence within prog, yeah they likely have very very little outside it as most prog bands do no. Yeah, I agree that many of the prog bands had very little impact outside the world of prog.  That is why I would say, and believe strongly as it is no-brainer to me, that Floyd has had the greatest impact outside the world of prog. Perhaps because they were the least typcially prog and their music was able to impact and influence a much wider range of musicians. Now within prog things would be quite different and where I would have Genesis much higher and would rank ELP as #1 not for inspiring copy cats, but for being the primary influence on some of the most defining aspects of what prog became. Ensemble virtuosity, emphasis on classical/rock merging, and of course taking keyboards out of a supporting role and making them on par with the lead guitar in driving the music. the second comment is what I was trying to say but wasn't able to express it as clearly as you have. Pink Floyds music is more universal and crosses more genre boundaries compared to Genesis who were perhaps along with Yes the most important bands of symphonic prog. I tend to lose sight of ELP's influence because their reputation has been largely destroyed. One thing that confuses me about the whole discussion is the distinction between imitation and influence. Isn't imitation just a form of influence? Some bands develop along these lines. Best example I can think of is Big Big Train. They are very strongly influenced by Genesis in their early days but then have been around for a long time and so have developed something of their own as well. How do you just dump music into one of 2 categories like this? There are more grey areas than black and white. ELP's reputation will never be repaired nor should it be attempted to. Serious musicians recognize the skill, talent and impact of the group on prog. Who really cares if the gen pop, especially internet forum dwellers don't like them.  I had a an interesting discussion with a keyboardist (now ex- unfortunately) of a band I really love who have played some pretty high profile gigs here on the east coast and the MAN adores ELP and what it did to free rock keyboardists to take equal footing with those pansy primadonna guitar players.. yet. .the band.. sounds nothing like ELP.  .  For what it is worth Richard, I think imitation is the sincerest and easiest to see (and also to easiest to incorrectly place) form of influence. Yet it is not really the most important. IMO to cull that out you have to look deeper and that is where ELP's influence on the genre is undeniable and frankly.. the most important in defining what became known as prog rock. Prog Rock has fragemented today beyond recognition, some might even say Prog is dead, and what has taken its place is a very vibrant progressive rock scene. One that traces its roots back to prog, but eschew the standard ploys and cliches and simply adds whatever ingrediants and influences they wish to create fresh and challenging music. Nice to know as I grew up as an ELP fan at a time when ELP had become the band that everyone loved to bash - even many prog fans! I have noticed though a relaxation of the barbed comments towards them in recent years. Perhaps there is an appreciation that they were important if not everyone's cup of tea.

It would be nice to think, however having been away from here for a good number of years,  I think the forums have really chilled out and mellowed out. It isn't the hand to hand combat it was in the early days Richard. I remember those well,  and enjoyed a good dust up and there were plenty to be found.  I think the forum itself has matured.  Perhaps it is more appreciation of them but likely more a maturation to simply leave what one doesn't like alone and let others who like it enjoy it. Something that perhaps one could use, and definitely could have used in the old days, regarding band additions here.  Hey I don't think it is prog, but you know what? Someone else might and it is and the world won't end if this band is enshirined in these hallowed halls hahha

richardh wrote: micky wrote: when talking prog bands and influence it is an important distinction between just what they are influencing. I think I did confuse myself in my last post. It is easy to flip between talking prog influence and wider influence. I was obviously talking of Genesis's influence within prog, yeah they likely have very very little outside it as most prog bands do no. Yeah, I agree that many of the prog bands had very little impact outside the world of prog.  That is why I would say, and believe strongly as it is no-brainer to me, that Floyd has had the greatest impact outside the world of prog. Perhaps because they were the least typcially prog and their music was able to impact and influence a much wider range of musicians. Now within prog things would be quite different and where I would have Genesis much higher and would rank ELP as #1 not for inspiring copy cats, but for being the primary influence on some of the most defining aspects of what prog became. Ensemble virtuosity, emphasis on classical/rock merging, and of course taking keyboards out of a supporting role and making them on par with the lead guitar in driving the music. the second comment is what I was trying to say but wasn't able to express it as clearly as you have. Pink Floyds music is more universal and crosses more genre boundaries compared to Genesis who were perhaps along with Yes the most important bands of symphonic prog. I tend to lose sight of ELP's influence because their reputation has been largely destroyed. One thing that confuses me about the whole discussion is the distinction between imitation and influence. Isn't imitation just a form of influence? Some bands develop along these lines. Best example I can think of is Big Big Train. They are very strongly influenced by Genesis in their early days but then have been around for a long time and so have developed something of their own as well. How do you just dump music into one of 2 categories like this? There are more grey areas than black and white.

ELP's reputation will never be repaired nor should it be attempted to. Serious musicians recognize the skill, talent and impact of the group on prog. Who really cares if the gen pop, especially internet forum dwellers don't like them.  I had a an interesting discussion with a keyboardist (now ex- unfortunately) of a band I really love who have played some pretty high profile gigs here on the east coast and the MAN adores ELP and what it did to free rock keyboardists to take equal footing with those pansy primadonna guitar players.. yet. .the band.. sounds nothing like ELP.  . 

For what it is worth Richard, I think imitation is the sincerest and easiest to see (and also to easiest to incorrectly place) form of influence. Yet it is not really the most important. IMO to cull that out you have to look deeper and that is where ELP's influence on the genre is undeniable and frankly.. the most important in defining what became known as prog rock. Prog Rock has fragemented today beyond recognition, some might even say Prog is dead, and what has taken its place is a very vibrant progressive rock scene. One that traces its roots back to prog, but eschew the standard ploys and cliches and simply adds whatever ingrediants and influences they wish to create fresh and challenging music.




Edited by micky - October 27 2014 at 18:14

I cannot understand Genesis being more influential than KC or Floyd.  I simply cannot.