The Most Influential

when talking prog bands and influence it is an important distinction between just what they are influencing. I think I did confuse myself in my last post. It is easy to flip between talking prog influence and wider influence. I was obviously talking of Genesis's influence within prog, yeah they likely have very very little outside it as most prog bands do no.

Yeah, I agree that many of the prog bands had very little impact outside the world of prog.  That is why I would say, and believe strongly as it is no-brainer to me, that Floyd has had the greatest impact outside the world of prog. Perhaps because they were the least typcially prog and their music was able to impact and influence a much wider range of musicians.

Now within prog things would be quite different and where I would have Genesis much higher and would rank ELP as #1 not for inspiring copy cats, but for being the primary influence on some of the most defining aspects of what prog became. Ensemble virtuosity, emphasis on classical/rock merging, and of course taking keyboards out of a supporting role and making them on par with the lead guitar in driving the music.

micky wrote: when talking prog bands and influence it is an important distinction between just what they are influencing. I think I did confuse myself in my last post. It is easy to flip between talking prog influence and wider influence. I was obviously talking of Genesis's influence within prog, yeah they likely have very very little outside it as most prog bands do no. Yeah, I agree that many of the prog bands had very little impact outside the world of prog.  That is why I would say, and believe strongly as it is no-brainer to me, that Floyd has had the greatest impact outside the world of prog. Perhaps because they were the least typcially prog and their music was able to impact and influence a much wider range of musicians. Now within prog things would be quite different and where I would have Genesis much higher and would rank ELP as #1 not for inspiring copy cats, but for being the primary influence on some of the most defining aspects of what prog became. Ensemble virtuosity, emphasis on classical/rock merging, and of course taking keyboards out of a supporting role and making them on par with the lead guitar in driving the music.

Amen, thank you. Imitation is just an obvious and poorly masked form of influence. The distinction Steve came up with is just a desperate strawman.

rogerthat wrote: SteveG wrote:  Now who's shifting goal posts? Let's get get back to influence vs imitation, because without understanding the difference all of your above exposition is useless. There are many cliched explanations of influence but I'll give you a real life one that's easier to understand. When I was working as a second engineer recording for an American metal band that had 'ghoulish' overtones to their music I was given the task of recording a piano intro for one song. Their keyboardist tried to record a creepy piano intro to one song that kept coming out sounding cliched or cartoonish. It just didn't have any gravitas. We knocked off for the night and would try again the next day. The following day's sessions produced any almost similar intro but was slightly different at points and really had the gravitas that the music called for. The keyboard player said that he was listening to Floyd records the night before and decided to incorporate Rick Wright's use of D minor with a major 7th as well G major 7th suspended second to his verse chords. The resulting creepy intro sounded nothing like Pink Floyd, or Rick Wright for that matter. That was influence without being imitative. The keyboard player and his composition still sounded and was original. Please think on this for a while, RT, before you shoot back another post to me. Your above post actually does nothing to address the issue.  Because if you are going to claim that influence that is imitative is not influence at all, then you cannot also claim that the so called Genesis clones were influenced by Genesis because imitation (of some aspects of Genesis) is a big part of the reason they get called that.  As has been pointed out to you, you want to have it both ways and you can't.  You know what, I am just going to call you out on this one.  I am pretty sure you haven't heard Mother or The Wall album at all in a very long time and have only a vague recollection of it.  Your vague allusion to Kamen and 'recording tricks' already gave it away but I decided to wait one more comment before bringing this up.  So you have no idea what exactly I am talking about with reference to that example and still want to just bluff your way through. Get back when you have the slightest inclination for an honest discussion.

As the native American saying goes 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't throw it in'. I tried. Your loss, RT.

Not this has any bearing on your argumemt, The Wall is one of two later Floyd albums that I still spin from time to time, the other being Wish You Were Hear.


Edited by SteveG - October 27 2014 at 09:02

Raff wrote: I think there is an obvious omission in the above list - The Beatles. Like them or not, they were hugely influential in the development of progressive rock as we know it, and their influence remains to this day.

Eh, the proper form of the idiom you used is that one can take horses to water but can't teach them to drink.  Either which way, it's a pretty condescending exit route that you've lined up, but if that's the best you can manage, sure.  Your insults are pretty meaningless and insignificant in the extreme to me anyway.

dr wu23 wrote: And I'm a bit confused about Miles Davis as far as what specific prog rock bands he influenced. I can see jazz fusion of course but prog rock..?

I cannot understand Genesis being more influential than KC or Floyd.  I simply cannot.

richardh wrote: micky wrote: when talking prog bands and influence it is an important distinction between just what they are influencing. I think I did confuse myself in my last post. It is easy to flip between talking prog influence and wider influence. I was obviously talking of Genesis's influence within prog, yeah they likely have very very little outside it as most prog bands do no. Yeah, I agree that many of the prog bands had very little impact outside the world of prog.  That is why I would say, and believe strongly as it is no-brainer to me, that Floyd has had the greatest impact outside the world of prog. Perhaps because they were the least typcially prog and their music was able to impact and influence a much wider range of musicians. Now within prog things would be quite different and where I would have Genesis much higher and would rank ELP as #1 not for inspiring copy cats, but for being the primary influence on some of the most defining aspects of what prog became. Ensemble virtuosity, emphasis on classical/rock merging, and of course taking keyboards out of a supporting role and making them on par with the lead guitar in driving the music. the second comment is what I was trying to say but wasn't able to express it as clearly as you have. Pink Floyds music is more universal and crosses more genre boundaries compared to Genesis who were perhaps along with Yes the most important bands of symphonic prog. I tend to lose sight of ELP's influence because their reputation has been largely destroyed. One thing that confuses me about the whole discussion is the distinction between imitation and influence. Isn't imitation just a form of influence? Some bands develop along these lines. Best example I can think of is Big Big Train. They are very strongly influenced by Genesis in their early days but then have been around for a long time and so have developed something of their own as well. How do you just dump music into one of 2 categories like this? There are more grey areas than black and white.

ELP's reputation will never be repaired nor should it be attempted to. Serious musicians recognize the skill, talent and impact of the group on prog. Who really cares if the gen pop, especially internet forum dwellers don't like them.  I had a an interesting discussion with a keyboardist (now ex- unfortunately) of a band I really love who have played some pretty high profile gigs here on the east coast and the MAN adores ELP and what it did to free rock keyboardists to take equal footing with those pansy primadonna guitar players.. yet. .the band.. sounds nothing like ELP.  . 

For what it is worth Richard, I think imitation is the sincerest and easiest to see (and also to easiest to incorrectly place) form of influence. Yet it is not really the most important. IMO to cull that out you have to look deeper and that is where ELP's influence on the genre is undeniable and frankly.. the most important in defining what became known as prog rock. Prog Rock has fragemented today beyond recognition, some might even say Prog is dead, and what has taken its place is a very vibrant progressive rock scene. One that traces its roots back to prog, but eschew the standard ploys and cliches and simply adds whatever ingrediants and influences they wish to create fresh and challenging music.




Edited by micky - October 27 2014 at 18:14

richardh wrote: micky wrote: richardh wrote: micky wrote: when talking prog bands and influence it is an important distinction between just what they are influencing. I think I did confuse myself in my last post. It is easy to flip between talking prog influence and wider influence. I was obviously talking of Genesis's influence within prog, yeah they likely have very very little outside it as most prog bands do no. Yeah, I agree that many of the prog bands had very little impact outside the world of prog.  That is why I would say, and believe strongly as it is no-brainer to me, that Floyd has had the greatest impact outside the world of prog. Perhaps because they were the least typcially prog and their music was able to impact and influence a much wider range of musicians. Now within prog things would be quite different and where I would have Genesis much higher and would rank ELP as #1 not for inspiring copy cats, but for being the primary influence on some of the most defining aspects of what prog became. Ensemble virtuosity, emphasis on classical/rock merging, and of course taking keyboards out of a supporting role and making them on par with the lead guitar in driving the music. the second comment is what I was trying to say but wasn't able to express it as clearly as you have. Pink Floyds music is more universal and crosses more genre boundaries compared to Genesis who were perhaps along with Yes the most important bands of symphonic prog. I tend to lose sight of ELP's influence because their reputation has been largely destroyed. One thing that confuses me about the whole discussion is the distinction between imitation and influence. Isn't imitation just a form of influence? Some bands develop along these lines. Best example I can think of is Big Big Train. They are very strongly influenced by Genesis in their early days but then have been around for a long time and so have developed something of their own as well. How do you just dump music into one of 2 categories like this? There are more grey areas than black and white. ELP's reputation will never be repaired nor should it be attempted to. Serious musicians recognize the skill, talent and impact of the group on prog. Who really cares if the gen pop, especially internet forum dwellers don't like them.  I had a an interesting discussion with a keyboardist (now ex- unfortunately) of a band I really love who have played some pretty high profile gigs here on the east coast and the MAN adores ELP and what it did to free rock keyboardists to take equal footing with those pansy primadonna guitar players.. yet. .the band.. sounds nothing like ELP.  .  For what it is worth Richard, I think imitation is the sincerest and easiest to see (and also to easiest to incorrectly place) form of influence. Yet it is not really the most important. IMO to cull that out you have to look deeper and that is where ELP's influence on the genre is undeniable and frankly.. the most important in defining what became known as prog rock. Prog Rock has fragemented today beyond recognition, some might even say Prog is dead, and what has taken its place is a very vibrant progressive rock scene. One that traces its roots back to prog, but eschew the standard ploys and cliches and simply adds whatever ingrediants and influences they wish to create fresh and challenging music. Nice to know as I grew up as an ELP fan at a time when ELP had become the band that everyone loved to bash - even many prog fans! I have noticed though a relaxation of the barbed comments towards them in recent years. Perhaps there is an appreciation that they were important if not everyone's cup of tea.

It would be nice to think, however having been away from here for a good number of years,  I think the forums have really chilled out and mellowed out. It isn't the hand to hand combat it was in the early days Richard. I remember those well,  and enjoyed a good dust up and there were plenty to be found.  I think the forum itself has matured.  Perhaps it is more appreciation of them but likely more a maturation to simply leave what one doesn't like alone and let others who like it enjoy it. Something that perhaps one could use, and definitely could have used in the old days, regarding band additions here.  Hey I don't think it is prog, but you know what? Someone else might and it is and the world won't end if this band is enshirined in these hallowed halls hahha