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Topic ClosedRush: Heavy Prog or Prog Metal?
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 21:33
It really boils down to personal opinion of what is metal and what is progressive rock. Do these two interplay and can they be mixed...? I think we all would agree they can.
Last night I saw the segment of Sam Dunn's Metal Evolution-Progressive Metal. As we know, he is looking for the evolution of metal, where did it come from.

This segment started with Rush and ended with Rush, much of it features Rush and even interviews of all three. Geddy kinda summed it up, they liked playing the long, structural, involved pcs..the prog epics, the Genesis, Yes stuff...but he said they also like to rock.

I still say that in 1974, not today, in 1974 that Working Man was a hard heavy song that had a lot of metal flavor. In 1974 people considered Led Zeppelin metal and Rush had that sound initially. Alex was consumed by how Jimmy Page just let it flow and how hard and distorted the sound was...Remember, you are talking about Rush just starting out and trying to emulate their influences of LZ, The Who, Cream..early on.
Once Neil came on board they began to explore the psychedelic/prog/art side of Yes, Genesis, PF. It was not till 2112 where that hard heavy rock came in with a strong progressive flavor. Heavy prog and also prog metal has been tagged to that album...I think Sam Dunn would agree.

Rush are/were part of the Metal Evolution.....Are they 100% metal like Judas Priest, of course not.

We have this vision of what Prog Metal is, but that vision was different in 1974-76. Again, there were some people that called Schizoid Man metal, in 1970ish sure why not...Today never!

Today Rush is not prog metal, it was in some of their albums...but in general overall to me they are a progressive rock band, because of how their songs progressed into mini epics versus long 20 min epics. Alex said it, they cannot get much shorter than 5-6 min long. The songs still have the elements of prog played hard and heavy, with some metal tones.

Heavy Prog works to answer this thread. But to me they are a progressive rock band.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 12:03
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Bull.   Rush has never even flirted with heavy metal.   Judas Priest, Sabbath, Scorpions...  Rush ?  
No I don't at all think so.
When Working Man was first played on
a small mid western radio station, listeners called to request that the
station replay the "new Zeppelin song". And that's no bull. Just
because Zep knocked the metal label and were more blues based, that
doesn't mean that they didn't play any.
Of course, because the Rush debut is unmistakably Zep-influenced, but
Rush's attempts at emulating the heavy rock sound was half-assed at
best.   And they never played metal at all (or even 'Good Times Bad
Times' -styled heavy rock).   'Working Man' is about as far from heavy
metal as 'Taxman' is.   It wasn't until they began to foster their own
sound that they became a real band.



I don't like posting from I Phones, hard enough for me with a PC, but I will.

Metal is also characterized, aside from the obvious power chords, riffs and riffing, by it's songs emphatic rhythms and deliberate stresses. Also prominent is the interplay between bass and guitar (and who does this better than Rush?)with Geddy's bass lines holding down the critical pedal point. I think Peart's drumming speaks for itself, but his obvious use of cymble checking is also a clue.

To, me 2112 is not a progressive metal album because it's metal music played with keyboards and a concept thrown in. It's Progressive metal because it's metal music played progressively.

If you don't see my points at this stage, it's probably a good time to agree to disagree.

Now, I'm off to hear some newly uncovered recordings by Blind Willie Mctell and Pink Anderson. Now that's really heavy s@%#!

Edited by SteveG - September 27 2014 at 12:43
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Points: 17061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 12:02
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I do not like recent Uriah Heep but adore David Byron and Ken Hensley era


How about John Lawton? Firefly ('77) is my favorite Heep.
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 11:52
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:


Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am not a great fan of Rush to be honest, 
Then you're dead to me.
me too! LOL


Frankly speaking Padraic, I simply ignore what you said. I don’t judge people by their political choices, their beliefs being religions or not and certainly will not judge them by their musical preference.

When someone doesn’t particularly like a band that I do, I try find out what they like and possibly find similar choices to suggest some of my favorite tracks of the band to them because maybe the songs they heard were not the band’s best work etc. this happens especially in prog because of the diverse range. I have been lucky to change some friend’s opinion when it came to TFK and Pain of Salvation for instance. I am very open to trying new albums and love discovering old bands that I never heard before in my life, those are real gems.

I do not own any Rush albums, never seen a gig from them although given the opportunity I would because I know their concerts are a big event. My opinion will make no difference whatsoever to RUSH, it has no affect to their livelihood, they have a huge following, worked hard for it, made it into the hall of fame and deserve it too. Your closed comment to me is ok however does make my openness to the band even a more negative one.

P.S. This goes for you too,Rushfan4


The core of your post is that your mind may be closed to what you have obviously convinced your friends to try out and be open with TFK and PoS....It matters to me nothing if you try to listen to Rush or not, and I doubt others too...but maybe try a dose of your own medicine.

If you have then I recall this post.


Dreamcatcher great Peart profile pic btw and no not the same, if you read the whole thing I try to find similarities in terms of taste that others might like and suggest similar to the best I can in what friends might like, try to show a different side of a band. For instance, I am not a big fan of Flying Colour nor Neal Morse's Singing however I absolutely adore Spocks Beard and Transatlantic, I do not like recent Uriah Heep but adore David Byron and Ken Hensley era, bands who have released many albums tend to be very diverse and I don't easily give up when someone doesn't like a band that I truly believe is good, I give it my best shot to try convince them otherwise. Look at Genesis, they sound nothing like Gabriel era nor like right after that era even when Phil stopped playing drums and decided to be the singer, nothing compares new Genesis to any of that. It's all very relative I think. I just think I have not come across or convinced how astonishing Rush is maybe it might be due to lack of knowledge about them I admit but so far this is what I think. I know people's taste vary and thankfull for this too coz there is really horrid music out there and rush is absolutely not one of them (horrid as in pop) I am just saying that I have other preferences to listen and this is good too! I love Floyd and some Pink Floyd fans will only listen to Floyd not give another band a change atleast to listen to see if they like it and this is a shame because there is so much great moozik out there!


Sounds good to me. I never push anyone to listen to something I don't think they might like.
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verslibre View Drop Down
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Points: 17061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 10:11
Geddy, easily. In the '70s he could hit insanely high notes, though I prefer his vocals ca. '78-'88.
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Kati View Drop Down
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2014 at 05:03
to all you Grumpies here, I am not sure who has a higher pitch, Geddy or the singer from Budgie (he sounds even like nancy Sinatra) however Budgie's song Parents is to me one of my ultimate favorite songs to date, I adore that song! Foxy above here is my new fav Grumpy btw   

Edited by Kati - September 27 2014 at 05:04
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 23:24
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Of course I was joking - who would seriously say something like that?  ConfusedLOL



that's it now you are stuck with me don't run lol
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 23:17
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:


Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am not a great fan of Rush to be honest, 
Then you're dead to me.
me too! LOL


Frankly speaking Padraic, I simply ignore what you said. I don’t judge people by their political choices, their beliefs being religions or not and certainly will not judge them by their musical preference.

When someone doesn’t particularly like a band that I do, I try find out what they like and possibly find similar choices to suggest some of my favorite tracks of the band to them because maybe the songs they heard were not the band’s best work etc. this happens especially in prog because of the diverse range. I have been lucky to change some friend’s opinion when it came to TFK and Pain of Salvation for instance. I am very open to trying new albums and love discovering old bands that I never heard before in my life, those are real gems.

I do not own any Rush albums, never seen a gig from them although given the opportunity I would because I know their concerts are a big event. My opinion will make no difference whatsoever to RUSH, it has no affect to their livelihood, they have a huge following, worked hard for it, made it into the hall of fame and deserve it too. Your closed comment to me is ok however does make my openness to the band even a more negative one.

P.S. This goes for you too,Rushfan4


The core of your post is that your mind may be closed to what you have obviously convinced your friends to try out and be open with TFK and PoS....It matters to me nothing if you try to listen to Rush or not, and I doubt others too...but maybe try a dose of your own medicine.

If you have then I recall this post.


Dreamcatcher great Peart profile pic btw and no not the same, if you read the whole thing I try to find similarities in terms of taste that others might like and suggest similar to the best I can in what friends might like, try to show a different side of a band. For instance, I am not a big fan of Flying Colour nor Neal Morse's Singing however I absolutely adore Spocks Beard and Transatlantic, I do not like recent Uriah Heep but adore David Byron and Ken Hensley era, bands who have released many albums tend to be very diverse and I don't easily give up when someone doesn't like a band that I truly believe is good, I give it my best shot to try convince them otherwise. Look at Genesis, they sound nothing like Gabriel era nor like right after that era even when Phil stopped playing drums and decided to be the singer, nothing compares new Genesis to any of that. It's all very relative I think. I just think I have not come across or convinced how astonishing Rush is maybe it might be due to lack of knowledge about them I admit but so far this is what I think. I know people's taste vary and thankfull for this too coz there is really horrid music out there and rush is absolutely not one of them (horrid as in pop) I am just saying that I have other preferences to listen and this is good too! I love Floyd and some Pink Floyd fans will only listen to Floyd not give another band a change atleast to listen to see if they like it and this is a shame because there is so much great moozik out there!
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Points: 65244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 21:03
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Bull.   Rush has never even flirted with heavy metal.   Judas Priest, Sabbath, Scorpions...  Rush ?   No I don't at all think so.
When Working Man was first played on a small mid western radio station, listeners called to request that the station replay the "new Zeppelin song". And that's no bull. Just because Zep knocked the metal label and were more blues based, that doesn't mean that they didn't play any.
Of course, because the Rush debut is unmistakably Zep-influenced, but Rush's attempts at emulating the heavy rock sound was half-assed at best.   And they never played metal at all (or even 'Good Times Bad Times' -styled heavy rock).   'Working Man' is about as far from heavy metal as 'Taxman' is.   It wasn't until they began to foster their own sound that they became a real band.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 17061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 17:43
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

There are a number of acts in Progressive Electronic that incorporate lots of non-electronic music.  My favourite Vangelis albums are Hypothesis and The Dragon which are not electronic albums -- more jazz fusion/ Prog.  I also like his debut.  I happen to also like his albums Beauborg, Albedo (some number), and Spiral which would fit electronic.


As an avid electronic music listener since '85, I heartily concur. Unlike Tangerine Dream, where the sound is typically synths/samplers + electronic rhythms topped by electric guitar (except for the early records), Vangelis has alternately recorded stuff that's symphonic, experimental, and purely electronic (and his collab with Neuronium was awesome), but his approach has never been steadfastly nailed down. Hypothesis, L'Apocalypse L'Animaux, Albedo 0.39, Beauborg, Blade Runner and Direct all sound like they could have been recorded by five different personalities, with the exception of those few distinct stylistic aspects that give him away.
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Points: 35748 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 16:42
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Vangelis needs Proto New Age to escape the treachery that is Prog Related.
It's in there: Progressive Electronic. ;)  I think he should be in Crossover.


Definitely Crossover. He could never be Progressive Electronic because his synths share space with drums, piano, bass, guitar, harp, etc.


There are a number of acts in Progressive Electronic that incorporate lots of non-electronic music.  My favourite Vangelis albums are Hypothesis and The Dragon which are not electronic albums -- more jazz fusion/ Prog.  I also like his debut.  I happen to also like his albums Beauborg, Albedo (some number), and Spiral which would fit electronic.

His music is really diverse, and I think he should be primarily evaluated on his 70s stuff.  Eclectic would work well, but because of his mainstream sort of career I think Crossover is a better fit overall.
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Points: 17061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 16:35
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Vangelis needs Proto New Age to escape the treachery that is Prog Related.
It's in there: Progressive Electronic. ;)  I think he should be in Crossover.


Definitely Crossover. He could never be Progressive Electronic because his synths share space with drums, piano, bass, guitar, harp, etc.
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Points: 35748 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 16:23
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^Proto Prog Metal......??LOL
I think PA could benefit from that category, but not before Proto Post-Rock, Proto Neo-Prog, and Proto Prog Related.


It's in there: symph!


True, that was also in my mind.  LOL

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Vangelis needs Proto New Age to escape the treachery that is Prog Related.


It's in there: Progressive Electronic. ;) 

I think he should be in Crossover.
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Points: 17061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 16:04
Vangelis needs Proto New Age to escape the treachery that is Prog Related.
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Points: 17061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 16:02
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^Proto Prog Metal......??LOL
I think PA could benefit from that category, but not before Proto Post-Rock, Proto Neo-Prog, and Proto Prog Related.


It's in there: symph!
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Points: 35748 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 15:54
^ Oh yes, and it shall be known as jazz. Wink
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 15:33
^You forget my suggestion for Proto Jazz Rock/Fusion.
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Points: 35748 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 15:27
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^Proto Prog Metal......??LOL


I think PA could benefit from that category, but not before Proto Post-Rock, Proto Neo-Prog, and Proto Prog Related.
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Points: 17061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 15:25
Proto:

1.First in time; earliest.

2.First formed; primitive; original.

At least it's better than Prog Related...
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Points: 35748 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2014 at 15:25
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

As one fellow I knew might have once said about 2112, "That's some heavy sh*t, man, and I do mean, ah... heavy ... and, you know, rockin! "


That reminds me of that old infomercial for a '60s protest music collection called Freedom Rock, with two hippies going "Is that Freedom Rock, man?!" "Yeahhh, man!" "Well...turn it UP!"


I remember that. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eGWW8KOQio
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