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Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
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Points: 10213
Posted: April 13 2014 at 12:41
The Dark Elf wrote:
That's a great video, Svetonio. The song was written for The Who Are You album, and was played in concert after Moon's death. What is it you are attempting but failing to say? The Who are still trudging on with occasional tours, even though John Entwistle and Keith Moon are dead. Bands vomiting up memorial tours does not mean much to me. It's nostalgia, remembering what they were. It's an enjoyable rerun without all the original performers. It is not the incredible excitement of watching a band in their prime playing something like Quadrophenia or Who's Next for the first time live.
The song which was impossible for Keith Moon to play, because he (although a great rock drummer & innovator), was not know to play 6/8;
the studio version they recorded with the "steps", and some cymbals were taken from Townshend's demo. There is not Keith Moon in the song. As you can see, there was one band called The Who, and they were the greatest concert attraction in 1979 - without Keith Moon (RIP).
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
Posted: April 13 2014 at 12:56
Svetonio wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
That's a great video, Svetonio. The song was written for The Who Are You album, and was played in concert after Moon's death. What is it you are attempting but failing to say? The Who are still trudging on with occasional tours, even though John Entwistle and Keith Moon are dead. Bands vomiting up memorial tours does not mean much to me. It's nostalgia, remembering what they were. It's an enjoyable rerun without all the original performers. It is not the incredible excitement of watching a band in their prime playing something like Quadrophenia or Who's Next for the first time live.
The song which was impossible for Keith Moon to play, because he (although a great rock drummer & innovator), was not know to play 6/8;
the studio version they recorded with the "steps", and some cymbals were taken from Townshend's demo. There is not Keith Moon in the song. As you can see, there was one band called The Who, and they were the greatest concert attraction in 1979 - without Keith Moon (RIP).
Check your source material. It is not that Keith Moon "did not know how to play" in 6/8 time, which is a ludicrous assumption; it is, rather, because his health had deteriorated so much that he "could not play" the song in total:
"(Keith) was so sad about it. He was so upset. He used to cry. Nobody knew more than Keith (that his drumming had deteriorated). It used to break his heart." --Roger Daltrey
You are wrong. Try again.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
Posted: April 13 2014 at 13:22
The Dark Elf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
That's a great video, Svetonio. The song was written for The Who Are You album, and was played in concert after Moon's death. What is it you are attempting but failing to say? The Who are still trudging on with occasional tours, even though John Entwistle and Keith Moon are dead. Bands vomiting up memorial tours does not mean much to me. It's nostalgia, remembering what they were. It's an enjoyable rerun without all the original performers. It is not the incredible excitement of watching a band in their prime playing something like Quadrophenia or Who's Next for the first time live.
The song which was impossible for Keith Moon to play, because he (although a great rock drummer & innovator), was not know to play 6/8;
the studio version they recorded with the "steps", and some cymbals were taken from Townshend's demo. There is not Keith Moon in the song. As you can see, there was one band called The Who, and they were the greatest concert attraction in 1979 - without Keith Moon (RIP).
Check your source material. It is not that Keith Moon "did not know how to play" in 6/8 time, which is a ludicrous assumption; it is, rather, because his health had deteriorated so much that he "could not play" the song in total:
"(Keith) was so sad about it. He was so upset. He used to cry. Nobody knew more than Keith (that his drumming had deteriorated). It used to break his heart." --Roger Daltrey
You are wrong. Try again.
Aside of his alcoholism, Keith Moon was not know to play jazzy groove. Due to Keith Moon's alcoholism, what Roger Daltrey explained as well, the band had a serious problem with his drumming at entire WAY, but 6/8 he never played because he simply didn't know to play it. He was a rock'n'roll drummer. His favourite band was The Beach Boys and his favourite genre was surf rock. He never practice, he never did reherseals. He couldn't be a studio and (or ) fusion drummer. But, Keith Moon is the legend.
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
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Posted: April 13 2014 at 15:00
Jon Astley, the producer of WAY:
Meanwhile, given one more chance, and with his back now firmly up against the wall, Keith Moon finally got his act together, laying down all of his drum parts within about 10 days. "He was great," asserts Astley. "The band couldn't believe it. When they did '905', which was bass drum, snare, off-beat, on-beat, everybody went 'That can't be Keith playing!' It was so unlike him. The timing was great and it was difficult to do, but he pulled it off. The only thing on which he couldn't play, which Pete warned me about, was 'Music Must Change'. Pete said 'It's in 6/8 and he doesn't feel 6/8. He never has, he never will. Don't even go there.' He was right. We ended up putting footsteps on the track. On Pete's demo he was walking around in a circle, and had it been quadraphonic it would have been wonderful to listen to — you could hear his squeaky shoes, and the sound of him walking around in a circle was the pace of the record... I mean, never mind 6/8, Keith never really felt 2/4 either. He felt orchestra — timpani here and big cymbals there. It was acting, it was theatre, and he really was great. I loved him.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 13065
Posted: April 13 2014 at 19:05
Dean wrote:
...or...
Yes, that does sound like a brilliant piece of Keith Moon drumming on "Love Reign O'er Me", and in 6/8 time.
But besides the whole 6/8 time question that is utterly consuming this thread (after all, I've been accused of taking discussions off-topic), the more cogent bit that I was trying to get at is that Tbe Who, along with Zeppelin, Tull, Genesis, ELP, Yes, Gentle Giant, VdGG, Pink Floyd and nearly every other notable progressive band from the "Golden Age of Rock and Roll" (if I may quote Mott the Hoople) were considerably greater and, might I add, considerably more proggy (or proggier, if you prefer) prior to 1979 than after. I don't believe one can defend an opposing point of view.
I graduated high school in 1978, and entering college I can say that campuses (we partied at many) were decidedly punkier and new wavish, from both the music in dorms and apartments on turntables (where we used to play round vinyl discs known as "records") to the college radio stations. There was a decided difference in what one heard at the close of the 70s -- a palpable change in the air, as it were -- and thousands of college kids were turning elsewhere than prog for their listening enjoyment.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 2755
Posted: April 13 2014 at 20:36
It is not that prog "died" at a certain time. Bands are still making interesting and exciting prog today. But there is an unfortunate tendency among prog fans to assume that, because they like it, it must be prog. This has led to abominations such a Jefferson Airplane, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin et. al. being included on this site under a false flag, when they have little or nothing to do with prog. Prog is here and now, but to find it on this site you need to use some discrimination and some common sense.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65268
Posted: April 13 2014 at 20:39
It
might illuminate this interesting debate to know that John Bonham
often recorded things in the studio that were difficult if not
near-impossible to recreate live. It is something those who've
not taken their music in front of an audience may not understand, but
what one may accomplish on your instrument one day ~ the magic, the
brilliant unplanned moments and spontaneous breakthroughs ~ may escape
you the next. Music is a physicality as
much it is a spirituality; musicians are athletes and it requires huge
amounts endurance as much as it does skill and a good ear.
Case in point: 'How Many More Times', one of the great drum songs and one the band often performed, is notable for the difficulty Bonham had reproducing that killer drum part on demand. But
it is exactly that demand musicians face every day, and all sorts of
things may impact that-- mood, wellness, temperature, personal
chemistry, or other subtle influences we can't see. Keep in
mind, an awesome moment on an album is either recorded many times till
right, or they get lucky and the first or second takes are the
best. But live or under pressure to record, it's do or die,
put up or shut up, and mistakes are made. In this way,
musicians and singers are uniquely vulnerable to their conditions and
surroundings more than actors or comedians may be. Imagine
having to sing a two-hour set of complex, challenging songs; I'd rather
tell some jokes or act a part than play music live, it's a recipe for
disaster and a wonder so many gigs go off so well. What
good musicians do in front of an audience is nothing short of
miraculous.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 13 2014 at 20:53
Halford used to struggle with Painkiller live. Not saying he never nailed it live but have noticed him struggle with it on several occasions. Even the great Dio often bailed out of the unbelievable "Bloody angels fast descending" (Neon Knights) part live and changed the melody slightly to sing it lower. It does not make the musician in question incapable for that reason alone.
One of the strongest themes in the entire debate so far
is the acknowledged seismic shift in the market place that took place
circa 1980. It's no happy accident that MTV emerged and blossomed during
this time (I mean ELP might have had a stripper in a till, a gypsy queen in vaseline, seven virgins and a mule but even they couldn't hope to make Karn Evil 9
fit the bite size pop video format). Suddenly the old big shifters of units (album bands with squat singles) were replaced by the new big shifters of units (singles bands with albums with loads of hit singles) I've always thought that such
developments were indicative of the game changing when record companies
discovered how to exploit branding as a marketing ploy. Here's
the plan: the execs thought that if they could foist an engineered brand
loyalty onto consumers akin to that experienced by the followers of
sports teams then they could sell snow to Eskimos. Artists like Hendrix,
the Nice and King Crimson (one of those is not a Brit, rabid
sniffer dogs at Ethnocentral Police HQ) exemplified the belief that
music was an indivisible whole and that
attempts to draw artificial boundaries between its league of nations was
the antithesis of any trailblazing pioneering ethos. Once the nascent
marketplace realised the leverage to be gained by a demarcation process
kicking in, it foisted this engineered 'brand patriotism' onto its
consumers
which would lead to the 'phony' wars that are still being waged from
within the forums of this very website. In short PRE circa 1980 you
could hear Jazz, Blues, Rock, Metal, Classical, Folk, Ballad, Avant
Garde and formless weird sh*t on the one album. POST circa 1980 you had to buy at least 9
different albums. I'm Scottish, I care deeply about unnecessary
expenditure....
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 14 2014 at 10:10
^^^ I think the idea of strict genre-based demarcation of music products goes back earlier than MTV in USA. For instance, it seems labels found it hard to convince radio stations to play Minnie Riperton's songs because they couldn't decide if it was rock or R&B (and therefore what would be its target audience). When you listen to the songs, the idea that they would find it so difficult to slot very accessible, straight up music defies logic! But, yes, it has gradually spread to other markets. Punk possibly offered them a great chance to ignite cultural wars and then keep them going. There was another - and imo very silly - war between so called 'true' metal bands like Metallica and glam metal bands in the 80s. It's also no coincidence that one hit wonders proliferated in a much bigger way in the 80s.
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
Posted: April 14 2014 at 10:21
rogerthat wrote:
It's also no coincidence that one hit wonders proliferated in a much bigger way in the 80s.
That's disputable.
Wikipedia lists 273 US one-hit wonders for the 1980s but 350 for the 1970s. Out of interest, it list 261 for the 2000s.
Now obviously Wikipedia list are not necessarily definitive but it does suggest that the 1970s are far and above the most prolific years for the one-hit wonder.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 14 2014 at 10:23
lol, I saw this coming the moment I wrote it. Maybe I just recall more hit songs of these one hit wonders from the 80s. Or maybe they have got more sustained airplay on radio/TV.
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: April 14 2014 at 10:47
rogerthat wrote:
lol, I saw this coming the moment I wrote it. Maybe I just recall more hit songs of these one hit wonders from the 80s. Or maybe they have got more sustained airplay on radio/TV.
I think the honest answer is that they were better and thus more memorable. The 1970s singles charts were dire even through rose-tinted spectacles.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 14 2014 at 10:49
^^^ Based on the two times I heard the Coast to Coast show on road trips (a local radio station somehow thinks it's a great idea to re run old episodes of that show), I did feel that, yes, 70s top 20 was pretty boring.
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
Posted: April 14 2014 at 11:40
I almost envy people who think prog ended in the '70's. They have set up a finite universe. For those of us who haven't stopped there, there is too much out there....
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
I almost envy people who think prog ended in the '70's. They have set up a finite universe. For those of us who haven't stopped there, there is too much out there....
There is however, a whole lot more to my musical universe than just Prog
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
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Points: 10213
Posted: April 14 2014 at 16:34
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
lol, I saw this coming the moment I wrote it. Maybe I just recall more hit songs of these one hit wonders from the 80s. Or maybe they have got more sustained airplay on radio/TV.
I think the honest answer is that they were better and thus more memorable. The 1970s singles charts were dire even through rose-tinted spectacles.
I disagree.
e.g. in 70s, the female hit-makers were sexiest and didn't play bad rock'n'roll at all...
...aside from 70s glamour, there was so many great and memorable hits...
...and awesome ballads too; nothing like that in 80s.
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The Dark Elf wrote:
