Exclusionsist or Inclusivist?

Up until the late-90's, I was strictly a 70's Prog-Snob, maybe into the 80's with Marillion. Then I was introduced to Porcupine Tree and things looked very interesting. Now, I am totally immersed in modern Prog, with the whole 'retro' thing for good measure, and subsequently/consequently spend more time with the here-and-now, with nostalgic re-visitations to the 70's faves. Those who say Prog died in '79 obviously have a different perception of Prog/Progressive music, to myself.

Edited by Tom Ozric - April 12 2014 at 22:08

Hmmm, 'prog related' is questionable, though Wishbone Ash fit the bill perfectly, and I think they deserve to be here - could always be shifted to Crossover ??

Man With Hat wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Man With Hat wrote: A bit of a loaded poll really. Obviously the second choice is stupid. But that doesn't mean we should add every piece of music or band that is slightly odd or quirky, even to go so far as to include non rock acts just because they may be progressive. For the site, I believe we should be more exclusionist, but that doesn't mean I believe prog died in '79. Interesting perception of how the poll is deemed to be 'loaded' given that its creator voted for option 2 presumably on the basis of either his sincere belief or sincere stupidity. I notice however that you mix the use of Prog and progressive in your post which might go some way towards explaining this confusion but certainly helps identify one of the misconceptions the poll was created in the first place to highlight. I mean it would be very difficult to make an argument that Krautrock, RPI, Canterbury, Zeuhl or Neo prog (OK this flourished for a while in the 80's) etc were actually still evolving to qualify as contemporary in 2014? You say we should be more exclusionist but don't state how we can bring this about i.e. do we continue to use sub genre definitions that are a measure of a historical bygone Prog or should we reevaluate the sub genre definitions to assimilate contemporary developments in progressive rock/ progressive music?. Do people think the existing definitions are wide enough to accommodate modern trends etc That's the sort of debate I wanted to stimulate. Hey man, I only used your terminology. And perhaps I misunderstood the poll then. When reading the question, I didn't think this was a prog vs progressive discussion. For the record, I think there is plenty of room on PA for both the style and the spirit of prog/progressive (assuming it's still rock/rock based of course). And since you asked, I like the subgenres the way they are (for the most part...I certainly wouldn't sack them...except prog-related ).

Fair enough and thanks for the feedback. I could have framed the question better perhaps but it's not really a Prog v progressive debate, although that's maybe a part of it. I just wanted people to ask themselves if the avowed aim of the site had changed over time i.e. is Prog still extant as an evolving phenomenon now or is it merely indicative of the sort of music being created now that was inspired by the Prog bands of the 70's?


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 12 2014 at 23:41

Tom Ozric wrote: Up until the late-90's, I was strictly a 70's Prog-Snob, maybe into the 80's with Marillion. Then I was introduced to Porcupine Tree and things looked very interesting. Now, I am totally immersed in modern Prog, with the whole 'retro' thing for good measure, and subsequently/consequently spend more time with the here-and-now, with nostalgic re-visitations to the 70's faves. Those who say Prog died in '79 obviously have a different perception of Prog/Progressive music, to myself.

That's interesting. I also enjoy much of the so-called modern Prog but would ask if you consider the likes of Transatlantic, Wobbler, Areknames Big Big Train and say Black Bonzo to be Prog? as you could make a very cogent argument that the foregoing for all their unimpeachable talent and skill are tantamount to a very affectionate and brilliant homage or even pastiche of vintage 70's Prog. I'm not denigrating these bands as I have bought and enjoyed many of their albums but I couldn't help but echo the sentiments posted by The Dark Elf

The Dark Elf wrote: Sometimes, I'll listen to a band like Big Big Train (with wonderful albums like Underfall Yard and English Electric I & II), and I begin to wonder if I like the albums because they are very reminiscent to what I listened to as a teenager (and I would suggest that English Electric I would probably be an album I would have listened to in 1976 or 77).  Meh, I just don't know. But I do know what I like (in my wardrobe and through my speakers).

Liking something should be sufficient so I guess we needn't beat ourselves up about justifying our enjoyment of this stuff but just how forward thinking is backwards looking music?

rogerthat wrote: Svetonio wrote: rogerthat wrote: Although I voted for option 1, I think the changes in prog since the 70s are more in terms of sound or maybe the domination of guitar rather than keyboard. The 70s already covered a very wide gamut and even if that alone formed the basis of deciding what bands today could be called prog, it would still be a very inclusive term because it would include symph, avant prog, prog metal (basis the inclusion of Rush), jazz rock, etc. While I am from the younger brigade, I am sympathetic to what it is that those who think prog died in 1979 are grappling with. Prog as a concentrated scene of music seems to have collapsed by the end of the 70s.   Today it's more about new bands with members who grew up listening to prog wanting to make some prog of their own and these bands are scattered across the globe catering to smaller fanbases. Progressive rock does not cease to exist in 1979. All that happened then was that the greatest bands of British progressive rock movement (scene) lost their compass, shamelessly released a number of too commercial albums, although they still to be progressive rock in some way. However, that was not the case in the rest of the world; e.g. Zappa at the end of seventies and in the eighties was released the masterpieces: 1979 May      Orchestral Favorities       Sep      Joe's Garage Act I Nov      Joe's Garage Acts II & II            1981      May      Tinsel Town Rebellion            Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar                  Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar Some More              Return of the Son of Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar                   Sep      You Are What You Is             1982      May      Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch             1983      Mar      The Man from Utopia              Jun      London Symphony Orchestra, Vol. I        1984      Aug      Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger       Oct      Them or Us       Nov      Thing-Fish               1986   Jazz from Hell       1987      Jun      London Symphony Orchestra, Vol. II                   Broadway the Hard Way Once again, the history of progressive rock can not and should not be viewed only from the perspective of the British progressive rock movement (scene). Pl read what I actually wrote rather than use something that is said to forward a pet agenda.  I never said that prog died in 1979.  I said I can sympathise with the viewpoint of those who think so because the scene as such collapsed.  There is a significant difference between the words 'collapsed' and 'died' and I don't like to see these nuances being ignored and reduced to oversimplified positions just to make it convenient to argue against.  The prog scene is much more scattered today than in the 70s and this has a lot of implications for the amount of influence it is able to exert (which is limited) on music culture as such compared to the 70s.  To acknowledge this does not imply that there were no prog artists working in the 80s or subsequent decades. Thank you for assuming I do not know what Zappa did in the 80s when it was I who had pointed to Zappa's role in shaping prog as a genre in the 60s in the other thread.

Edited by Svetonio - April 13 2014 at 02:29

^ I think everyone thought it would just keep getting better;  more great music, more progressive, more innovations.   I mean why would things become less creative?   It didn't seem possible music would revert to the pablum of previous years.   And then suddenly Duran Duran was the high standard in popular music.

Fortunately all the music now seems to be in top form and continuing the upward trend, the way I see it! There's a lot of great stuff out there, and more innovative options are always coming into being. I'm definitely feeling blessed to be alive in this decade where I can appreciate prog both old and new, and it both be awesome!

I'll say the progressive idiom is not dead, as I continue to hear stuff that's never been done before in the modern days. And the stuff that is inspired from prog groups of old, in reality that's just a realistic expectation to have. After all, there's no music that didn't come from some past inspiration. Much like the evolution from Bach to Mozart to Beethoven to Chopin to Liszt to Scriabin to Prokofiev to many modern composers whose works sound nothing like the past masters but still shares a common starting place up the family tree, we can see prog has a similar tendency. And since the dawn of creation and the first musical traditions on the planet, there's been nothing but advancement and sharing of ideas that has only become more concrete and developed as time has gone by. So it's a pretty unrealistic idea to say that a group of bands got together to create something unrelated to all musical traditions of the past and then killed it off within the span of roughly one decade, give or take a couple years on either side. That would be completely counterintuitive to the way music has developed in the time humanity has occupied the earth and shared, cultivated, and elaborately developed musical traditions.

^^^  Nail on the head.  We basically have a menu of time tested, carefully chosen favourite flavours (and I mean what generally passes for rock and pop music, not just prog).  Most of it is not stuff that really challenges established perceptions of what is possible within a given genre.  Here and there, there may be artists who still take risks, say a Fiona Apple experimenting within the boundaries of American songwriting traditions, but it's not a wave anymore.

Edited by rogerthat - April 13 2014 at 03:36

rogerthat wrote: Ha ha ha, well said.  From my local perspective, I have similar views on the Ilayaraja phenomenon; never looked like he would be knocked off his perch and so he was. Happens everywhere.  I have learnt that people can in fact ultimately get tired of very innovative, very challenging, demanding music in copious quantities, though logically it seems impossible.   And then, they will develop pangs of nostalgia for the very thing that they had started shunning but by then, it's too late.  Reversing it back to complex seems to be harder than introducing simplicity under the "breath of fresh air" pretext.

Yep

Sventonio: So what about Gentle Giant, Renaissance, ELP (and many other bands actually that hit a dead end in the 80s)?  So they all sold out and therefore I must ignore them as examples and focus only on the few who managed to keep going?  The exact time, whether it is 1979 or 1980s proper, is not of essence here.  What is is the change in music culture in the 80s, some of which had begun to make an impact in the late 70s already.  If Yes wasn't making prog albums, what exactly stopped other bands from keeping symph prog not just alive but just as popular as it was in the 70s?  And symph prog was hardly the sole preserve of Britain.  There are very well regarded 70s bands from the rest of Europe as well as America in that genre.  What happened to that?  Why did it become necessary to identify a new niche as prog metal that was connected to Rush but not the first wave of prog (and, again, first wave here includes everything, not just British prog)?  As you would be aware, prog metal is primarily a metal genre though it has been slyly appropriated as part of the larger prog umbrella.  Would there have been any reason for any of this if nothing changed from the 1970s to 1980s?  Obviously a LOT changed, the bands that enjoyed popularity in the 80s vis a vis the 70s and the kind of music they played attests to this.

Edited by rogerthat - April 13 2014 at 03:47