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Topic ClosedStripping a myth - the truth about ITCOTCK
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Points: 20623 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:12
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:



"In the Course of the Crimson King" is considered to be the first full-fledged prog album by many people. let me first make it clear that I don't believe such a claim can be made by any album. prog was, like any other musical form, something that gradually developed, and it makes no sense at  all to define a clear point for saying "this is where it all starts".


I fully agree with this. When we look at the historical development of movements, of which Prog is one, we find a continuum of small steps that lead up to something new and recognizable. Where it begins is a matter of interpretation, which is not always informed or clearly thought out. We can find all sorts of elements that went into Prog, many of which are not rock. ITCOTCK is one of the steps, and an important one, but certainly not the first.

Personally, I love the album and listen to it in its entirety as well. The long instrumental part of Moonchild is more intriguing to me than enjoyable. It also sets the stage for ITCOTCK: That first swell of the mellotron after so many minutes of rambling is sweet to my ears. I don't care if the album is Prog or not, much less the first. It is a great album, and surprisingly mellow, given the band's reputation. The only song that really rocks is 21st Schizoid Man. Nor is the album perfect, another categorization I do not care for.

Great analysis, BaldJean!
 
Well said Robert.....and I couldn't agree more.
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Points: 6467 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:06
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:



"In the Course of the Crimson King" is considered to be the first full-fledged prog album by many people. let me first make it clear that I don't believe such a claim can be made by any album. prog was, like any other musical form, something that gradually developed, and it makes no sense at  all to define a clear point for saying "this is where it all starts".


I fully agree with this. When we look at the historical development of movements, of which Prog is one, we find a continuum of small steps that lead up to something new and recognizable. Where it begins is a matter of interpretation, which is not always informed or clearly thought out. We can find all sorts of elements that went into Prog, many of which are not rock. ITCOTCK is one of the steps, and an important one, but certainly not the first.

Personally, I love the album and listen to it in its entirety as well. The long instrumental part of Moonchild is more intriguing to me than enjoyable. It also sets the stage for ITCOTCK: That first swell of the mellotron after so many minutes of rambling is sweet to my ears. I don't care if the album is Prog or not, much less the first. It is a great album, and surprisingly mellow, given the band's reputation. The only song that really rocks is 21st Schizoid Man. Nor is the album perfect, another categorization I do not care for.

Great analysis, BaldJean!
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 10:38
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

what never fails to amaze me is how many people give 5 stars to this album and make bad comments about the second part of "Moonchild". are they aware that this second part constitutes almost a quarter of the album? how can an album of which nearly 25% are bad be a 5 star album?

because the other 75% is amazing?

What I think is that its a very important album. It was a 'coming out' album. . Its a grand statement. Its a bunch of young incredibly talented guys doing something with style and panache.

Of course they didn't invent 'prog' so perhaps this is the crux of the issue. What they did was pull together a lot of ideas and present them in the most coherent way possible . They defined it rather than inventing it.

I think "defined" is the wrong term here, especially if you consider the Latin origin of the word, which means "to limit, to set bounds"


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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 10:22
^I don't think there are any rules in that regard. How could there?
I do however think it's interesting to hear from people, who've experienced how the album was received at the time of it's release. How it manifested itself in the rock community. If everything - or just half of what is said about itchycock is true, then I think it warrants half an extra handshake.
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Points: 2673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 10:15
Aren't albums supposed to be rated on the quality of the music, not its importance in the history of the genre? I guess prog isn't exactly a genre anyway, but that's beside the point.
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Points: 27956 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 02:54
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

what never fails to amaze me is how many people give 5 stars to this album and make bad comments about the second part of "Moonchild". are they aware that this second part constitutes almost a quarter of the album? how can an album of which nearly 25% are bad be a 5 star album?

because the other 75% is amazing?

What I think is that its a very important album. It was a 'coming out' album. . Its a grand statement. Its a bunch of young incredibly talented guys doing something with style and panache.

Of course they didn't invent 'prog' so perhaps this is the crux of the issue. What they did was pull together a lot of ideas and present them in the most coherent way possible . They defined it rather than inventing it.
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 00:32
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

 
I think you meant sacred cow syndromeWink and no-one is getting remotely worked up. I also don't believe that ITCOTCK was the first Prog Rock album, fully fledged, guaranteed pop free with added vitamin prog or otherwise. (I gave it a very conservative three star review) In fact I can't recall anyone ever claiming that every track on ITCOTCK was a defining Prog Rock tune? If either the OP or yourself hold that premise to be the consensus view then we can but wait for the latter to chime in accordingly

I also said tracks that flirt with contemporary or historic musical styles which meant more tongue in cheek material like say Benny the Bouncer, Cans and Brahms, Jeremy Bender, I Know What I Like etc which adhere quite closely to an existing popular song style. It was also consistent with my view that as good as those Pedigree Prog albums are which you cite as being purebreeds, something like CTTE is really just a very ingenuously segued medley of existing disparate song styles, albeit ones not normally appearing together.

I thought you smarter than to infer influenced by from my underlined remark but like many of the glib patronising hippies round these parts you are clearly pedantic enough to waste time hugging Banyan trees and brooding over whether anal retentive might have a hyphen or not.

I just think the thread is a transparently engineered attempt to be controversial for controversy's sake. The OP's motives for same can only be guessed at but hippies and trees can't be too far removed.

My dear sir, the word flirt itself has more than one connotation (as in "flirting with danger") so perhaps you could have made the effort to state precisely what you meant instead of expecting people to read your mind.  Or was it a conveniently chosen word that allowed you an escape route in case I should bring this up?   

And you may not recall, but in most of the previous discussions on "which was the first prog album", the precise argument made in favour of ITCOTCK making the case is that it was the first album length prog.  That is to say, that other, preceding albums did not concern themselves fully with prog.  I think this is the very point that BJ is trying to question.  Whether or not you agree, it is certainly a valid question.  Tarkus for instance has a side long epic and pop tidbits for the rest.  It is indeed regarded prog in spite of this so therefore how would Saucerful of Secrets not qualify as one of the first prog albums.  Nearly half of the running length of that album IS prog - Set Controls plus the title track.  The disclaimers and caveats and what not used to ensure ITCOTCK remains on the first prog album pedestal are, when looked at carefully, pretty artificial.  It is the most influential of the early prog albums.  I don't know whether or not BJ agrees with it, but I certainly do believe that and have never questioned that.  But it doesn't have to be the very first prog album to have exerted said influence.

Anyway, your last para makes it pretty clear there is no point in discussing this subject further with you.  You have approached the topic with misgivings to begin with and thereafter your responses are bound to be much more antagonising than they have any need to be.  You have no right to ask me to get real as if I just heard prog for the first time yesterday, mind it!  


Well OK, that was perhaps a tad overly confrontational even by my standards so I apologise for the anal retentive, glib, pedantic and patronising parts (but the tree hugging hippy reference staysWink)
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Points: 50 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 00:16
Nope, it definitely was the very first progressive rock album ever. Number one. No argument. Shocked (sarcasm)

 I commented on Jean's other post but I'd just like to say that I feel the whole album is absolute "prog rock" gold. Moonchild, Epitaph, I talk to the Wind - the whole shbang. While a few of the tracks took a little to warm up to when we first met, it definitely all sunk in, much like a good deal of the Crimbeast's other work. These 'what is/what isn't prog' debates baffle me.

 On the point of categorization, sure, it helps us communicate, but all the different little subconscious associations we carry around with us in this day and age do more harm than good when it comes down to how we approach art specifically, as both onlookers and participants I feel. In other words, artistic categories encourage premature decisions or flat out close-mindedness.

 I'm fine with a very general label (it's how I found this site after all), and I'm very appreciative of the work that's gone into the site to further help us navigate the sounds we may be interested in, but to sit here and debate whether one song or another is "truly a prog tune" is just absolute silliness in my opinion. 
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Points: 2673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 00:13
And if Robert Fripp said so himself that he doesn't make prog music, well then...
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 23:36
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

 
I think you meant sacred cow syndromeWink and no-one is getting remotely worked up. I also don't believe that ITCOTCK was the first Prog Rock album, fully fledged, guaranteed pop free with added vitamin prog or otherwise. (I gave it a very conservative three star review) In fact I can't recall anyone ever claiming that every track on ITCOTCK was a defining Prog Rock tune? If either the OP or yourself hold that premise to be the consensus view then we can but wait for the latter to chime in accordingly

I also said tracks that flirt with contemporary or historic musical styles which meant more tongue in cheek material like say Benny the Bouncer, Cans and Brahms, Jeremy Bender, I Know What I Like etc which adhere quite closely to an existing popular song style. It was also consistent with my view that as good as those Pedigree Prog albums are which you cite as being purebreeds, something like CTTE is really just a very ingenuously segued medley of existing disparate song styles, albeit ones not normally appearing together.

I thought you smarter than to infer influenced by from my underlined remark but like many of the glib patronising hippies round these parts you are clearly pedantic enough to waste time hugging Banyan trees and brooding over whether anal retentive might have a hyphen or not.

I just think the thread is a transparently engineered attempt to be controversial for controversy's sake. The OP's motives for same can only be guessed at but hippies and trees can't be too far removed.

My dear sir, the word flirt itself has more than one connotation (as in "flirting with danger") so perhaps you could have made the effort to state precisely what you meant instead of expecting people to read your mind.  Or was it a conveniently chosen word that allowed you an escape route in case I should bring this up?   

And you may not recall, but in most of the previous discussions on "which was the first prog album", the precise argument made in favour of ITCOTCK making the case is that it was the first album length prog.  That is to say, that other, preceding albums did not concern themselves fully with prog.  I think this is the very point that BJ is trying to question.  Whether or not you agree, it is certainly a valid question.  Tarkus for instance has a side long epic and pop tidbits for the rest.  It is indeed regarded prog in spite of this so therefore how would Saucerful of Secrets not qualify as one of the first prog albums.  Nearly half of the running length of that album IS prog - Set Controls plus the title track.  The disclaimers and caveats and what not used to ensure ITCOTCK remains on the first prog album pedestal are, when looked at carefully, pretty artificial.  It is the most influential of the early prog albums.  I don't know whether or not BJ agrees with it, but I certainly do believe that and have never questioned that.  But it doesn't have to be the very first prog album to have exerted said influence.

Anyway, your last para makes it pretty clear there is no point in discussing this subject further with you.  You have approached the topic with misgivings to begin with and thereafter your responses are bound to be much more antagonising than they have any need to be.  You have no right to ask me to get real as if I just heard prog for the first time yesterday, mind it!  


Edited by rogerthat - March 07 2014 at 23:42
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Points: 4091 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 23:23
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Itchycock? Now that's a progressive album...

Wasn't "Itchycock Park" sung by the Small Faces? 
I doubt any of us would want itchycocks in our small faces. 

I don't want any cocks, itchy or not

LOL
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 23:21
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

No, we are discussing classification here.  The question is not whether it could have been a single but whether it is pop rather than prog.  That is important as far as this discussion goes because the OP is built on the claim that the presumption that ITCOTCK was the first full prog album (as opposed to albums with some prog tracks) is not necessarily true.


So if 'I Talk to the Wind' had been released as a single and been successful that would have undermined this album's status as one of the first fully fledged Prog albums?
I think any track's success would have trumped classification over Prog.

Get real, not even ELP, Genesis or Yes have ever released a fully fledged 100% prog album. All their albums have tracks that flirt with contemporary or historic musical styles.

No that was not what was said.  I repeat the question was about whether in terms of classification it is pop or prog.  It is a simple enough question but now you are demonstrating the holy cow syndrome I mentioned earlier, getting worked up about any attempt to question the consensus on ITCOTCK without understanding the question.  

As to your next question, why of course Yes have.  Either Relayer or TFTO would comfortably qualify and while I have some doubts about the title track of CTTE it is certainly a much better fit for this purpose than I Talk To The Wind.  And your last statement doesn't make sense.  Why of course their music would be influenced by contemporary or historic musical styles...er, what music wouldn't.  What does that have to do with whether it's prog or not?   It would appear that ELP and Genesis have always included one or two pop tracks in their albums but then I never stated that they did make 100% prog albums.  Ok, what did I just shake the banyan tree or something?  

There are loads of prog rock bands that have made albums that were prog from start to finish without pop tracks.   Why credit ITCOTCK with something that it doesn't achieve? Where have I or BJ questioned the influence of ITCOTCK on the genre?  All that has been said is it is not a full fledged prog album either (an argument that is often made to deny that Days of Future Passed or Saucerful of Secrets are prog albums).  It could very well have still been (and was) influential on prog.  


I think you meant sacred cow syndromeWink and no-one is getting remotely worked up. I also don't believe that ITCOTCK was the first Prog Rock album, fully fledged, guaranteed pop free with added vitamin prog or otherwise. (I gave it a very conservative three star review) In fact I can't recall anyone ever claiming that every track on ITCOTCK was a defining Prog Rock tune? If either the OP or yourself hold that premise to be the consensus view then we can but wait for the latter to chime in accordingly

I also said tracks that flirt with contemporary or historic musical styles which meant more tongue in cheek material like say Benny the Bouncer, Cans and Brahms, Jeremy Bender, I Know What I Like etc which adhere quite closely to an existing popular song style. It was also consistent with my view that as good as those Pedigree Prog albums are which you cite as being purebreeds, something like CTTE is really just a very ingenuously segued medley of existing disparate song styles, albeit ones not normally appearing together.

I thought you smarter than to infer influenced by from my underlined remark but like many of the glib patronising hippies round these parts you are clearly pedantic enough to waste time hugging Banyan trees and brooding over whether anal retentive might have a hyphen or not.

I just think the thread is a transparently engineered attempt to be controversial for controversy's sake. The OP's motives for same can only be guessed at but hippies and trees can't be too far removed.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 23:07
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Itchycock? Now that's a progressive album...

Wasn't "Itchycock Park" sung by the Small Faces? 
I doubt any of us would want itchycocks in our small faces. 

I don't want any cocks, itchy or not


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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 22:24
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Itchycock? Now that's a progressive album...

Wasn't "Itchycock Park" sung by the Small Faces? 
I doubt any of us would want itchycocks in our small faces. 
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Points: 13050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 21:55
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Itchycock? Now that's a progressive album...

Wasn't "Itchycock Park" sung by the Small Faces? 
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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 21:00
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

No, we are discussing classification here.  The question is not whether it could have been a single but whether it is pop rather than prog.  That is important as far as this discussion goes because the OP is built on the claim that the presumption that ITCOTCK was the first full prog album (as opposed to albums with some prog tracks) is not necessarily true.


So if 'I Talk to the Wind' had been released as a single and been successful that would have undermined this album's status as one of the first fully fledged Prog albums?
I think any track's success would have trumped classification over Prog.

Get real, not even ELP, Genesis or Yes have ever released a fully fledged 100% prog album. All their albums have tracks that flirt with contemporary or historic musical styles.

No that was not what was said.  I repeat the question was about whether in terms of classification it is pop or prog.  It is a simple enough question but now you are demonstrating the holy cow syndrome I mentioned earlier, getting worked up about any attempt to question the consensus on ITCOTCK without understanding the question.  

As to your next question, why of course Yes have.  Either Relayer or TFTO would comfortably qualify and while I have some doubts about the title track of CTTE it is certainly a much better fit for this purpose than I Talk To The Wind.  And your last statement doesn't make sense.  Why of course their music would be influenced by contemporary or historic musical styles...er, what music wouldn't.  What does that have to do with whether it's prog or not?   It would appear that ELP and Genesis have always included one or two pop tracks in their albums but then I never stated that they did make 100% prog albums.  Ok, what did I just shake the banyan tree or something?  

There are loads of prog rock bands that have made albums that were prog from start to finish without pop tracks.   Why credit ITCOTCK with something that it doesn't achieve? Where have I or BJ questioned the influence of ITCOTCK on the genre?  All that has been said is it is not a full fledged prog album either (an argument that is often made to deny that Days of Future Passed or Saucerful of Secrets are prog albums).  It could very well have still been (and was) influential on prog.  


Edited by rogerthat - March 07 2014 at 21:04
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 13:12
*headdesk*

Irregardless of length, I Talk To The Trees Wind is a popular music ballad and no one can predict whether those damn things will chart or not, if Clint Eastwood can take I Talk To The Wind Trees into the pop charts then anything is possible.
What?
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:27
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

OMG, she's pulling the Beatles card LOL

The Beatles (and noone else?) were allowed to release "album long singles" (if they wanted to) given their god-like status. Find it hard to believe that the record company would let an unknown band like KC release I Talk to the Wind in full length.

If it had chart potential why wasn't it cocered by someone else and released as a single?

how many other tracks that had chart potential never appeared in the charts because they were never released as singles? and how many songs that were considered not to have chart potential became big hits? I just want to name "I will survive" by Gloria Gaynor which was originally published as the B-side of "Substitute", a cover of a song by the Righteous Brothers, because it was considered not to have enough charts potential


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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:23
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

No, we are discussing classification here.  The question is not whether it could have been a single but whether it is pop rather than prog.  That is important as far as this discussion goes because the OP is built on the claim that the presumption that ITCOTCK was the first full prog album (as opposed to albums with some prog tracks) is not necessarily true.


So if 'I Talk to the Wind' had been released as a single and been successful that would have undermined this album's status as one of the first fully fledged Prog albums?
I think any track's success would have trumped classification over Prog.

Get real, not even ELP, Genesis or Yes have ever released a fully fledged 100% prog album. All their albums have tracks that flirt with contemporary or historic musical styles.

you either have not read my post with full attention or deliberately misinterpret it; I don't know which. what the post is chiefly about is the impossibility to say "this is the first prog album". this music gradually emerged, and any kind of pointing to a certain album and saying "this is the beginning" makes no sense at all and is totally arbitrary.

I personally don't give a rat's arse what music is being called; I either enjoy it or I don't. and I have no idea why people need to have a "first prog album"


Uh, EtL was responding to rogerthat here.
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Points: 2133 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:18
OMG, she's pulling the Beatles card LOL

The Beatles (and noone else?) were allowed to release "album long singles" (if they wanted to) given their god-like status. Find it hard to believe that the record company would let an unknown band like KC release I Talk to the Wind in full length.

If it had chart potential why wasn't it cocered by someone else and released as a single?
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