Is classical influence essential to prog rock?

Which are quite on the fringes of the classical music repertoire.

moshkito wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: So many words, so little meaning. ... One can watch opera for hours, that doesn't make one Maria Callas or Enrico Caruso; likewise, listening to classical music for however many decades does not make one "classically" trained, any more than listening to King Crimson until your ears bleed makes you Robert Fripp.   Ohhh, I see! So you listening to KC and "progressive music" doesn't influence your words? It doesn't make you a Fripp, but your post and attitude is very Fripp! I didn't say it made you a Calls or Caruso! YOU DID! But if you loved that piece, it will influence you in one way or another, sooner or later, even without you knowing it.   It doesn't make you that person, of course not, and your suggestion is rather cheap. But, in many things through life, there are threads that seem to match and stick together. I don't see many differences between a "riff" and a "theme:  in a symphony, except this one instrument is simplifying things (rock music) and only working the melody, but then not all composers did a whole lot away from the melody or main "theme" in any piece of music, did they?   Be it, intentional or NOT, is another story, and one that we're confusing here and making the thread worse and more difficult to follow and discuss. But it would be bad to say that one has a shiny a$h and the other doesn't, and that is the main difference in influence. It might, even, be totally wrong!

Dean wrote: Kati wrote: Dean wrote: Kati wrote:  also besides many great known artists the best drummers to me were classically trained from Bruford to Zoltan (former Flower Kings).   I'll give you Zoltan but Bruford was not "classically trained". The number of Prog musicians who were "classically trained" is a really tiny number, I hesitate to use the word "few" but few it certainly is.  Dean!!! Yay hello!! As much as I like you and you are most awesome, this time you got it wrong, Bruford was classically trained, look it up on google, you'll get many hits anyway a massive super hug to you  to think that I'd make such a school boy error... ..not a chance. <span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;"> </span> In order to understand all those google hits you actually have to follow the links and read them. Sorry Sonia, but in spite of the many google hits, Bruford was not classically trained. I asked google if you were classically trained and got 11,500 hits.

Cooee!!! Dean, Bruford was highly influenced by jazz drummers this made him want to play drums when he was tiny, HE DID HAVE SOME TRAINING at Lou Pocock of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, which he attended during his school time before he became a professional.
P.S. In reference to this topic too, I did not say he had any kind of masters (or BM, BMus, MusB or MusBac or any kind of Bach sounding word anyway) in classic moozik, I said is that he was first and foremost classically trained. Yes I know he can play very complex pieces yet he might not be able to read every single music note in a composition however he makes more than up for it and beyond by being naturally gifted. hug    

Kati wrote: Kati wrote: Cooee!!! Dean, Bruford was highly influenced by jazz drummers this made him want to play drums when he was tiny, HE DID HAVE SOME TRAINING at Lou Pocock of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, which he attended during his school time before he became a professional. P.S. In reference to this topic too, I did not say he had any kind of masters (or BM, BMus, MusB or MusBac or any kind of Bach sounding word anyway) in classic moozik, I said is that he was first and foremost classically trained. Yes I know he can play very complex pieces yet he might not be able to read every single music note in a composition however he makes more than up for it and beyond by being naturally gifted. hug     I need to add that Bill Bruford did acquire a PHD in moozik at a later stage in his life, this had more to do to his ground breaking contributions to music. xxxx

presdoug wrote: I think how essential classical influence is to progressive rock depends on the band, really. There are groups like classic ELP or Triumvirat where that is an essential element to quite a bit of the music. (not surprising since Keith Emerson and Jurgen Fritz were classically trained-and it shows)             Yet, there are lots of progressive rock bands where that influence is not an essential element to the sound being conveyed.                    One cannot generalise about this aspect with what falls under the gigantic umbrella of progressive rock artists.

Kati wrote:   Dean, you made a good counter argument and you are right too. In terms of this topic that prog is or not influenced by classic music, both drummers that I mentioned I think was right too in this case because even Bruford was most inspired by American Jazz drummers as to become a drummer and jazz drummers currently are classified as classic jazz music. All this said, yes you made a good point and I agree thus am looking at it with a completely different view.

Dean wrote: presdoug wrote: I think how essential classical influence is to progressive rock depends on the band, really. There are groups like classic ELP or Triumvirat where that is an essential element to quite a bit of the music. (not surprising since Keith Emerson and Jurgen Fritz were classically trained-and it shows)             Yet, there are lots of progressive rock bands where that influence is not an essential element to the sound being conveyed.                    One cannot generalise about this aspect with what falls under the gigantic umbrella of progressive rock artists.                Sorry Doug, but Emerson was not "classically trained", it is a myth that we here in the Prog world seem to be destined to perpetuate from now to eternity. He had some formal lessons age 8, which he later dropped. In the UK formal music lessons employ the grade system (from 1 - 8) that serve as entry qualifications to higher level of study which is where "classical training" actually begins.

 
To be classical influenced at a degree, a Classic Prog Rock band didn't need to be "classically trained" or to be submitted to a "classical formal education". The same i said before, how in earth classical music was not essencial to a musician who listened to it for 30 years ?? Sorry, but i don't get your point.

ExittheLemming wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: We all know early Crimso is the best. Discipline is mainly prog, but certainly also new wave on a less integral level (whereas something like Magazine would be the other way around... or post-punk, it's basically the same. I use 'new wave' as the umbrella). It's the best album that has anything to do with that usually obnoxious style by an enormous margin. We all know that sometimes our opinions appear to us as irrefutable facts but that's just the nature of passion I guess. I'm not sure however that we all know what you mean by that usually obnoxious style? What I get from your post is this: 1 - what I like must have a connection to Prog or be predominantly Prog 2 - what I don't like cannot be remotely connected to Prog or contains sufficient new wave influences to qualify as obnoxious. Why do people on this site continually feel the need to seek justification for their tastes by their resemblance to limiting aesthetic criteria that flourished for a brief few years during the 70's? I love the Clash and ELP, I love Echo & the Bunnymen and Gentle Giant, I love Can and the Fall (so did Mark E Smith) I love the Velvet Underground and the Nice, I love the Sex Pistols and VDGG (so did John Lydon) I love XTC and Greenslade. Whenever I get pulled over by the fashion cops for such perceived offences, I have to say that for me there is no contradiction, one style does not negate the other, music is an indivisible whole that only marketing has tried to carve up by way of foisting artificial brand loyalties upon those consumers.feckless enough to believe their feelings have finally dissolved into facts. You got some bizarre things out of my post. I don't like minimalist, tinny sounding bands that lack in melody and dynamics, and nowhere am I seeking 'justification' for that. It's fine if you do. The police are not after you. You seem to be responding to some imaginary persecution you've felt in the past rather than to my post. Ok, at least you are now describing music using parameters that exist independently of Prog but anyone who describes artists they don't like as tinny sounding, lacking in melody and dynamics or obnoxious clearly has dispensed entirely with objectivity and will never free themselves from the trap of confusing their feelings with facts. My criticism of your original post centered around your dislike of new wave/post-punk based entirely on how much/little Prog it/they contained.If that's not what you meant then I would apologise but how else should we interpret your post?

Hmm, "tinny sounding and lacking in melody and dynamics" is an objective description that I think clearly fits the vast majority of new wave/post-punk. It's up to the individual as to whether they consider those traits good or bad (it baffles me that anyone would consider them good, but I won't lose sleep over it). "Obnoxious" is a subjective term of course.

My earlier post certainly made it clear how I felt about each style, but it doesn't anywhere demonstrate my like/dislike to be based categorically around style (it's just that new wave almost categorically contains elements I dislike). The Police are an exception at least some of the time, in that their songs often have a sense of 'space' to them.

A monastery is a residence of a community of monks. The way of life is very disciplined. If you take music seriously ..you must adapt the same role. I spent 5 years with a teacher studying the Classical guitar /music and perfecting a good tone. Bread and water was my diet along with 1 meal of bird helpings. 15 hours a day is not enough to be masterful in a timely fashion. More like 20 hours a day for weeks on end and with 3 to 4 hours sleep a night. I had no other activities and no social life whatsoever. I gave it up to combine my knowledge with other styles of music and concentrated on composition. Many Progressive Rock musicians have followed this path and many have a natural ear to learn Classical and have little training. You must dismiss all teachings of other styles in order to reach the level of Christopher Parkening or Segovia. Progressive Rock musicians add reflections of Classical music to create signature lines to their epics. They are not fully devoted to the life of a Classical musician. It is merely a adaption which is applied to their music. There is such a contrast between the 2 worlds.

ExittheLemming wrote: I'd guess that Close to the Edge or Tarkus might be deemed to sound 'tinny' or 'lacking in dynamics' if heard on a very cheap transistor radio or through very small speakers but are you seriously suggesting that post punk/new wave is irredeemably flawed because it lacks the same bandwidth that is available to other styles of music? Is it composed and engineered to accentuate the treble frequencies at the expense of those at the bottom end (have you heard Jah 'sub sonic dub' Wobble on Metal Box by PIL?) No, that much is self evident, your myopic view is transparently clear i.e. if you like music that is tinny sounding and lacking in melody and dynamics, then i respect your right to listen to sh*t music. I've heard that vainglorious argument on these forums for years. Apart from the Police (who I loathe heartily) can you name 10 artists in the field of Pop/Rock that you like?

I know there are exceptions but it generally does sound very sharp and tinny, and samey in terms of dynamics. There are even less exceptions in terms of the flatness of melody. Magazine is a bit better than I recalled though actually.

New wave is hardly the definitive 'pop/rock'. That would be the stuff from the 60's, and I like a fair amount of that. I have my problems with 60's 'production' and instrumental tones etc. though.


@ rogerthat, lol, yeah... I actually do find Yes' instrumental tones obnoxious much of the time.