Is classical influence essential to prog rock? |
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Rick Robson
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 03 2013 Location: Rio de Janeiro Status: Offline Points: 1607 |
Posted: February 01 2014 at 09:56 | |
It's indeed very nice to know there is someone here that actually cares about Classical Music and gives so much value to it, especially that from XIX's AND XVIII's. I remember quite well that in my childhood I used to see very much people listening to Classical Music, not only at home, and also watching Classical Ballet pieces. Nowadays is almost completely different...
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: February 01 2014 at 10:14 | |
It was and it wasn't as was jazz...
Now if you will excuse me I'm going to dance around some architecture.... Edited by Slartibartfast - February 01 2014 at 10:15 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Rick Robson
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 03 2013 Location: Rio de Janeiro Status: Offline Points: 1607 |
Posted: February 01 2014 at 10:22 | |
It's OK man... sometimes it's good to put some looseness on that...
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 17510 |
Posted: February 01 2014 at 15:48 | |
I think there are many folks here that listen to classical music. My big issue, is that not many of the folks that do, think that any of this rock music belongs, in the same sentence or discussion.
I believe that this is all the new music of the future, and it will be all electric and that the "orchestra" of yesterday will no longer exist as we know it. But the music composing is trying its best to ignore that modern music and rock and jazz, and instead trying to find something rather oblivious to what is out there.
I'm not sure that music will be the same EVER again, because of the advent of recording. Recording is showing us that there is just as much popular music, in rock or jazz or other idioms, that are far better written and performed than a lot of classical music in the past 50 to 60 years.
But you and I will not see the results of this as we will ahve been long gone by then. But I believe that music history is forever changed and will be better evaluated in about 50 years. Will this discussion be help[ful/important to it? I can't say, but can only hope that it will. But a lot of folks here, including admins do not think of this as anything other than pop music. I believe it has a lot more in the "classical" nature than it doesn't. But I respect their opinion and point of view. Edited by moshkito - February 02 2014 at 09:52 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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geekfreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 21 2013 Location: Musical Garden Status: Offline Points: 9872 |
Posted: February 14 2014 at 07:49 | |
the answer is YES!. most of the `60/`70`s bands add elements. of the classical masters within there music. even some of the neo prog bands.
also the band the tangent. check out there new album out. |
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Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake."
Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 13 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3834 |
Posted: February 15 2014 at 17:19 | |
It's essential to music in general.
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg |
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
Posted: February 15 2014 at 17:35 | |
^ Nice
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 17510 |
Posted: February 16 2014 at 11:01 | |
Rick, I think this was incorrectly mentioned as a quote by me. But I do think that what it said is right.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: February 16 2014 at 12:39 | |
Something I can't believe that I haven't mentioned yet: The few people with an in-depth knowledge of classical music I've heard voice an opinion on the subject find Beefheart/Zappa-style "avantgarde rock" and the more ambitious black/death metal groups of the 1990s (e. g. Gorguts) to do much more interesting things with the compositional elements borrowed from classical music, or at least execute the fusion in a much less awkward manner, than is the case with the Genesis/KC type of prog rock where the classical influence is usually more obvious. (and it might also be revelant that Mark Prindle considers Yes the only big name progressive rock band to pull off the classical/rock fusion fluidly)
I know that anecdotal evidence does not count for much, and like I said my very rudimentary knowledge of music theory puts me in the dark here, but I still find the above worth reflecting on. |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 29 2005 Location: Bucks county PA Status: Offline Points: 1474 |
Posted: February 16 2014 at 15:45 | |
No some is more jazz influenced or folk or whatever. What I don't get is that there are some people who think if it is mostly classical and rock then it's prog rock but if it's jazz and rock then it's fusion. For one thing, it's all prog. You could call the classical and rock thing classical rock or symphonic and the jazz rock thing fusion but they are all subgenres of progressive music.
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: February 16 2014 at 19:14 | |
Well it's the origin of the influences upon rock that matter of course. If it's European harmony with a very straight rhythm that's a big influence on some prog rock. But it doesn't stop there.
When it's jazz, there are a lot of harmonic extensions (implied chords) - that's the US jazz influence. But one of the big differences is in the rhythm. With the solid rock back beat in jazz rock (e.g Stanley Clarke) then the rock influence dominates. Jazz drumming is about playing from the cymbals down leaving the groove to the bass (Ron Carter and Tony Williams with Miles Davis). The big changes in rock drumming came with Bruford and Palmers ulra complex rhythms. The big fusion album (the ITCOCK equivaleent) is probably Bitches Brew. The drumming that was jazz, the jazz harmonies and the rock influence which was a more amped up sound gave prog rock a whole new identity - the American influence. The thing is, it may be that prog rock is a sub-genre of jazz and classical influences as well as The Beatles (C and W) / Stones (blues) / Who (soul) = generated rock - not the other way around. Jazz drumming on ITCOCK, Euro harmonies (but not 21st C. Schizoid Man which has everything) pretty much narrows the field making Prog rock a sub genre - not a meta one. From this came other ideas... bit like a Pete Fame family tree. |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 17510 |
Posted: February 19 2014 at 08:40 | |
And I think this is the stuff that will create the new music definitions and history for the 20th century and beyond, and cause "classical music" to change, like it has so many times before!
You can look at Tchaikovsky, Beethoven and Stravinsky, and there is no "rhythm", or drumming, for example, and all of a sudden we have pieces that are defined strictly on that basis (rock and jazz for sure) which is only a portion of the whole musical spectrum and likely the reason why so many folks do not consider rock/jazz as important music in the history of things.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Big Ears
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 08 2005 Location: Hants, England Status: Offline Points: 727 |
Posted: February 19 2014 at 09:26 | |
Aaron Copland uses layers of beats or rhythms, as on Bolero.
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: February 19 2014 at 09:26 | |
I agree with the last few posts. From very early on Jade Warrior brought in African and Japanese influences. Hackett's Spectral Morning's employs Japanese style music and ragtime in addition to its Classical influence. Peter Gabriel employed all sorts of world music influence. The Jazz influence on Prog has already been correctly mentioned. Classical influence is neither necessary nor sufficient. Maybe it is to qualify as the sub-genre, Symphonic Prog, but I'm not sure about that even. I don't hear any classical influence in the Genesis' The Waiting Room, yet experimental and Prog it is. 21st Century Schizoid Man incorporated Jazz not Classical.
Also, Classical is a pretty broad brush. The Classical influence on Zappa is not the same as the Classical influence on Genesis which is not the same as... Edited by HackettFan - February 19 2014 at 09:34 |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: February 19 2014 at 09:32 | |
There is much wisdom in this summary of what constitutes 'Prog' certainly but as the OP also observes, the adjectival distinction re progressive once more rears its ugly head. PA Member Dean has written very perceptively about this crucial difference on many occasions but we appear either unwilling or unable to take his caveats on-board.. I wholeheartedly agree that Hawkwind, Tull and Floyd, despite a lazy and ingrained set of associated ideas, have never really constituted Prog in my book (that's not to say their music is undermined by any such omission, but denied the credentials of Prog status by this site, many amongst us see this demarcation as a slight against their fave bands etc) Why do we continue to justify what we like with how it relates to Prog? We need to look at the bigger picture hereabouts e.g. for me, Television, Prefab Sprout, Wall of Voodoo, Magazine, Pere Ubu, the Fall, PIL (the list goes on) have demonstrably progressed rock music but would be horrified to be considered even remotely connected to Prog. Furthermore, if pressed I would have to say that I deem the latter's output more valuable and enduring than Crimson, Genesis, Yes, ELP etc. So called Kraut Rock has never been, is not and never will be Prog in my estimation (That's an observation NOT a criticism as I adore much Kraut) Similarly, the RIO/Avant critter is embraced because of shared values of innovation, non conformity and eschewal of traditional structures/form etc. Were it not for the textural context of rock instrumentation being deployed it's unlikely this stubbornly mooted genre would even create a dent in Prog's pillow. With regards to the pivotal question: No, classical influence is not essential to Prog Rock but does constitute a common influential thread amongst its most celebrated practitioners Edited by ExittheLemming - February 19 2014 at 09:41 |
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 01:20 | |
^ New wave was pitiful compared to prog, in terms of innovation. It had a bigger influence on mainstream bands of today but is that something to be proud of (I guess that's what you mean by "enduring")? So either definition of "progressive" fits the classical-rock bands better than any other kind of rock music.
RIO/Avant at times sounds closer to modern classical than any kind of rock, but in the end it is a substantial fusion of classical and rock, and thus clearly very closely related to other prog. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 01:51 | |
I might agree with you on this up to a point re the regressive nature of Punk but I don't consider any of Television, Prefab Sprout, Wall of Voodoo, Magazine, Pere Ubu, the Fall, or PIL to be new wave. (I can't even think of a catch all description for these bands except maybe... 'post-punk?') Whether we like it or not, Prog Rock was just another type of popular music that thrived for a short while during the 70's. What is truly remarkable about its mainstream success was that unlike other popular musics it wasn't remotely accessible on account of its complexity, technological demands and being very difficult to play. Even a rudimentary guitarist can busk along to say, Television or the Fall in their bedroom and take inspiration from that - that's what I meant by enduring (replicating an Emerson or Wakeman portamento moog solo in 7/8 from bedsit land would be a tad harder) I take on board your point about RIO/Avant but for me there's a lot of this type of music on PA that doesn't even have the rock constituent to my ears. |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13056 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 08:14 | |
Here is the best answer I've read: "I don't know what prog is, but I know it when I hear it." I am completely uninterested in making a niche music market even more limited by applying some draconian rule that allows for four English bands and two Italian bands to be entitled to reach the hallowed Olympus of "progressive rock". If that is the case, one might as well pack up the Prog Archives banner and call it a day. This place would be a ghost site in a week, or at least populated by a garrulous gaggle of geeks only willing to discuss the sonata form of "Suppers Ready" ad nauseam (and then get angry when a new poster suggests that the composition is simply 5 or 6 songs cobbled together to make it seem more pretentious than it is). I am also uninterested in what a pseudo-scholar with a pseudonym ("Derogatis"? Really? Why not Ignis Fatuus? ) has to say on the matter. I suppose I am far more inclusive in my definition, or rather, I see innovation in prog far differently. I don't consider it "lazy" to consider Jethro Tull or Pink Floyd as prog bands. I would say that, on the contrary, they were perhaps even more progressive because they did not rely solely on the constraints of classical form to innovate rock. There is blues, jazz and folk themes as well that are integral in what makes prog progressive. I would also say that Jethro Tull had far more than "ten songs" that constitute their admittance in the exclusive society. I would suggest that nearly every time John Evan played keyboard or David Palmer orchestrated string arrangements (there are whole passages in Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play with classical references), Tull was in fact incorporating classical themes into rock on every album in the 70s; after all, it's not like every damn Genesis song was based on a sonata or rhapsody. To suggest such a thing is inane. Likewise, if you consider Pink Floyd, would you say a composition like "Shine on You Crazy Diamond" is not a progressive piece simply because the progression is from a blues base rather than classical? There is even a section with a funeral march thrown in there for good measure. By that limiting argument, then The Moody Blues are far more deserving of prog status than either Yes or King Crimson. They sound more classical, ROFL!
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 08:56 | |
The same facile argument is used for pornography: I'm don't have to define it, I just know it when I see it (Mary Whitehouse has joined PA) |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13056 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 09:11 | |
And isn't rock music, besides the arrogant and pretentious facades some pompous folk try to slather it with, merely an attempt by scrawny guys to get laid via playing guitar? Imagine poor Geddy Lee or Robert Fripp trying to get a date without a band. Forced celibacy is a terrible thing.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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