Was prog actually popular in the 70s?? |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17524 |
Posted: February 12 2014 at 23:14 | |
While these bands were getting sales, along with Pink Floyd, the important fact was that these were all a part of the up and coming FM radio, which was in Stereo, and it wasn't until 74/75 that it started becoming more and more commercial, as the main radio conglomerates set about to buy all the FM stations. Even in Santa Barbara, the number one station was bought out by Texaco, I believe it was. It tells you that they saw another large outlay of finances, and the corporation take over of the creative juices was finalized, and this hurt the creativity of the previous few years badly. It was popular, in the main bands, and they were heard, although I had never heard anyone (even KLOS or KMET) play Genesis full blast like my ole friend did in Santa Barbara, whose TLLDOB got played in its entirety TWICE, due to requests and interests ... and back to back, on a number one station! You will NEVER find that, or hear that kind of excitement and resolve, again, on radio, or in the homemade internet stations these days! I think that "prog" has carved out its niche and stuff, but in the end, it is getting way too spread out because of individual tastes, and this makes it more difficult for someone to say/think that the idiom is doing well. It has to be doing well, when some of these bands are supporting themselves just fine, it seems. But I question how well Transatlantic is doing, unless MP is pulling off miraculous sales in the background, when you hear about them playing 200 seat places, and only half the folks show up. Makes me wonder if they are really that good, or just an excuse to get together and do something while the main bands rest a while. Popular can be relative, just like progressive music is. One just has to be aware that these were not, necessarily, media creation scenes in order to sell you what they want you to have! MOS ... otherwise known as More of the Same. Popularity today, is not as important as any band being able to sell a few CD's off their website, as the overhead of a large company supporting you does not exist, thus, a band from NY, or London, or Paris, would be just fine with 100k sales, and not have to worry, or want, to be in the rat road of fame and money. Despite disco, punk, glam, and crap and then rap, it survived just fine for 30 years, and continues on. On top of that, we survived having to read some folks writing reviews about these bands, that showed that they did not know music, didn't listen to it, and were not interested in anything except their favorite squeeze. But we ignored the insults and came through just fine. We're remembered. Those folks that thought they knew something, except their rock'n'roll, were left out in the dust when their "scene" died, and they did not go to music heaven! If you were around Hollywood and the LA area, you know EXACTLY how this played out. That perfume is now OUT! It's not even about the perfume, either!
Edited by moshkito - February 12 2014 at 23:18 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17524 |
Posted: February 12 2014 at 23:35 | |
(sorry if I got the quotes incorrectly!) You don't know the meaning of "pretentious" until you read about Bob Dylan's days way back when. Or even the Andy Warhol strength in NY, which became an immense godfather like empire, that was ridiculous about anything but the God. All else was stomped on. I imagine that London also had the Beatles and the Stones on top as the Gods! With folks working hard to make sure The Who and Led Zeppelin were also the royalty! It didn't start with Robert, who was merely protecting his ability and desire to play like he wanted, and not how some folks he should play rock'n'roll! If he was playing Chuck Berry, it's ok to say that but if he was playing Robert Fripp, why would you, or I or anyone else, have to take any crap from anyone else? Answer that first carefully, before you look at the whole thing again! Robert would say something about the "prophets wrote", as he himself was a student of a lot of philosophy and literature, that is rarely mentioned or understood. He knew the difference between men and gods, as it were. And this is the same path that Jesus of Nazareth had to travel. Being himself, and not a version of someone else's ideas and paths! That is THEIR ART. We are simply so media over weaned, and so convinced that our own niches and tastes are the bomb and that the rest is crap, specially when we don't know what it is about, or understand. The BBC, can never be said to be the God that helped progressive music come alive, but they were fairly good about giving so many different bands a listen and a chance. And only Prog Archives, or Space Pirate Radio, can EVER make that claim! The real documentary has to be done about some folks at PA, whose knowledge and talent far supersedes that of a lot of musicians, and are far more helpful in making it come alive than the rest. As such, this could be said to be a media thing, but it wasn't. It was a revolution that started at home, with your ears, and we all finally got together! Bless the gilded stars and their alignment for here we are with music the ultimate heart of your soul!
Edited by moshkito - February 12 2014 at 23:36 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 13 2014 at 11:56 | |
Art Rock appreciation in the late 60's, early 70's gradually developed and became widespread when this more relevant term Progressive Rock began to circulate. The record companies were no longer willing to support it with the magnitude they once did and by 75' and up to 79' ..this undertone or disguised plan to take opposite measures with all Prog bands..if they didn't tow the line or if they attempted to write more commercially viable songs and failed was totally obvious to most musicians traveling the road. The story that Frank Zappa told ...regarding the cigar choppin guys (record executives), hiring a hippie to make important decisions was a obvious reality to virtually unknown musicians. That was the moment in time when the decision to no longer invest in Prog began. A great many people were let down by the realization that the hippie culture had somehow gave society more freedom in the arts and here they were forcing musicians to write 3 minute songs. Also the freedom to record a 20 minute epic was forbidden.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17524 |
Posted: February 13 2014 at 13:39 | |
... became somewhat forbidden ... is how I would say it, but other bands in other parts of the world didn't care about the Anglo-American business rules and continued. No one was going to tell them how to play it, and what to play. It is possible, and likely, that Frank Zappa was a large influence, however, I think it was more about the freedom of the music than anything else. It was different and many times totally off the rocker, and still it rocked on and took you away with it, despite any lyrics. He might have not exactly been an influence in his words, but his actions and very obvious European enjoyment of his music, was for a long time quite far ahead and valuable than the American scene, which was still too commercial for him, and he wasted no opportunity to trash it. Not many folks, in the music business had that great an inner constitution to stand up and be counted and just do it. And I think that many Europeans took to this directly, and forgot about anything else. BUT, don't forget, the Europeans have a massive musical history, so ignoring ideas and thoughts and this and that, and just doing what they want and how they want is usually the result. This is something that the Anglo-American audiences have a hard time with, as they have become so media controlled that attention span has diminished because of it. We won't see that here, but you can see the reviews of people commenting about meandering and wasting time with filler in the longer pieces, and no musician thinks of their piece in that way for the most part. It means something to them, even if it is disguised by the solo, or the part that we think is over done. I call it a "soundtrack", not a song! KC I like a lot, but, for example, compared to Djam Karet's first 5 albums, it is not as free form as we think, although it is very obviously exceedingly well rehearsed and played like it. It does not diminish the importance of their work, when its time was so important, but it gives you an idea that not many bands learned to stick to the music and forget all the outside influences and forces, and this is something that a lot of progressive bands went on to do, and still do, though they might not be as much appreciated as they should. Dream Theater comes to mind as a good example of this. When you look back, that's one heck of a massive catalog of work, and they continued doing their own ideas, and not fall into the mainstream that went metal, or this or that. I think, you have to have a very strong inner character and desire. Almost nothing else can describe it so strongly and well. Another band that also fits here is Marillion. Might not be the very best, but by the time you look at their catalog, it's really hard to say that is not major or very good, though I would prefer a few less small "songs", but those don't bother me as much anymore.
Edited by moshkito - February 13 2014 at 13:43 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13063 |
Posted: February 13 2014 at 22:43 | |
There is a lot of truth in what you say, Mosh. In Detroit, the real rebel FM stations that started in the 60s and played whole albums and had "Headphones Only" sessions with long prog songs like WABX or WWWW (one of the first quadrophonic stations in the U.S.) were bought out and forced to change their formats by the mid-70s. Another station, WRIF, began playing more commercial rock and a newer station WLLZ (which we jokingly referred to as Whole Lotta Led Zeppelin) almost went straight corporate rock (Journey, Boston, Foreigner, Bad Company, REO, etc.). No wonder everyone started listening to punk and new wave! Edited by The Dark Elf - February 13 2014 at 22:43 |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 14 2014 at 12:28 | |
Edited by TODDLER - February 14 2014 at 12:33 |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 14 2014 at 13:02 | |
I remember the Bruford band playing small clubs and theatres in Philadelphia during the late 70's. Gong and National Health were playing small venues. It's very difficult to stay a float when you're continuing something artistic for hard core fans to enjoy. If the industry doesn't support you...you're on your own and who knows where that will lead you? Maybe a swamp pit in hell. What if your promotion contains a smaller percentage of effort/work..then you will never leave theatres. Musicians are stuck having odds with the industry if they choose to play what they want to. "Give the people what they want" was and has been a moronic saying for decades. That is a business concept to brainwash everyone who buys cd's in America. "We don't like what you like to play" ...."Just give us what we want?" My question is ..how is it that you know what you want or like ..when you've been raised on contrived nonsense created and controlled with millions of dollars by record executives/promoters/Disc Jockeys?
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: AČ Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
Posted: February 14 2014 at 21:14 | |
My local FM station in West Michigan played prog all the time and well into the 80s. That's how I got hooked on Genesis. It's also why Genesis and Peter Gabriel always played Kalamazoo when on tour.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: February 15 2014 at 14:48 | |
One of my local FMs played Hocus Pocus back in '72 if memory serves me right. Admittedly not their most progressive offering, but hey.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7272 |
Posted: February 15 2014 at 19:11 | |
That song used to play on Chicago AM stations constantly! "Roundabout" and "Small Beginnings" were a couple more that had heavy rotation, and "From the Beginning" was in the mix as well. Prog was extremely popular in Chicago, and still is.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13063 |
Posted: February 15 2014 at 20:12 | |
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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prog4evr
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 22 2005 Location: Wuhan, China Status: Offline Points: 1455 |
Posted: February 17 2014 at 05:42 | |
KWST, KLOS, and KMET were the holders of the "prog" keys in the 1970s in Los Angeles and the Southwest basin. KWST was the most "prog" oriented and died first (in the early 1980s sometime). KMET was next when Metromedia, Inc. (which owned KMET and a TV station) sold out and faded away. KMET 94.7 FM became a New Age / Jazz station in the mid-1980s and has been ever since. Only KLOS 95.5 FM (LA) keeps the "prog" candle flickering every now and again (since it is a historic rock station now). I don't know why there hasn't been a rabid prog station in southern CA like there has been in the Chicago area for all of these years...
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17524 |
Posted: February 17 2014 at 10:27 | |
I still believe, though I could be wrong, that the main issue at exactly that time, was with Ahmet Ertegun, who went on to become the big godfather of the millions and billions for the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, The Who and such, and when the Stones got their 50 million (or whatever), on that day WEA (Warner Elektra Atlantic -- the biggest distribution conglomerate in America at the time), dumped thousand of bands, because they needed to make sure they got enough on their investment, and they decided that not enough of these other things, were not worth the time and effort, specially if you only sold 15 NEU albums! (for example!).
AD2, supposedly was to have a small tour in America, and when Ahmet did his thing, AD2 was one of the bands dumped. So much so that Made in Germany got cut down to a single album, too!
The fall out for the greed is huge, but we don't do enough about it. We need more Orson Welles kinda folks, to take down an empire, just like Citizen Kane ... because it's here and is gonna get worse when Comcast joins Time Warner!
We still go around believeing in the greed is good thing, with the top ten mentality! It's like saying we support the greed! Edited by moshkito - February 17 2014 at 10:36 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Bitterblogger
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 04 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
Posted: February 17 2014 at 13:27 | |
In the mid-90's, KLOS had a Sunday morning program entitled "Stone Tracks" that played nothing but prog for two hours, mostly symphonic, crossover, and fusion.
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: AČ Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
Posted: February 17 2014 at 20:06 | |
Unfortunately that ship sailed a long time ago. That is why popular music has been stagnant for decades now. It is also why the established music industry is having problems. They blame illegal downloading on dwindling sales without ever addressing the real issue. If you keep repackaging the same product people will eventually lose interest. That is also why record stores are disappearing. People buy from the internet because they can get what they actually want. This in turn creates more fragmentation of the market which makes it more difficult for an individual artist to stand out. Wait, what was the topic of this thread again.... Edited by bhikkhu - February 17 2014 at 20:06 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17524 |
Posted: February 18 2014 at 08:21 | |
Nothing has made the era's music and story more progressive and important, and showed its value, than the INTERNET. And I think this is a part of the idea/concern that shows that the corporate idealism is not real, and an imagined concern, that we have a tendency to "believe", just like we do the top ten, and any other advertised comodity!
The reality is, and you and I know it well, that diversity hurts the conglomerates, but that same conglomerate owns USA Today and they ran the article that Comcast/TimeWarner should go kiss make up and go to bed! So, the more we get into "individuality", the more the bigger companies go for "control" of the markets, and the FCC is powerless, and folks, in general, don't care! We're too worried about the next song by the band ... and the fact the album has 2 cuts and they are too long! Edited by moshkito - February 18 2014 at 08:27 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: February 18 2014 at 08:33 | |
^ well I agree about the part about choice. The Internet is where it's at cause most record stores near me have very very little of what I am interested in. It's funny sometimes to have a go at the guy who is working the register and be like, what? You've never heard of RPI??!! Lol. My point is thought, that most record stores are just dominated with the commercial dribble...sadly. Although, recently I saw some Porcupine Tree albums and one OSI album in HMV! I nearly almost had a dump in my pants when I saw that. Wow.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 18 2014 at 09:09 | |
In the 70's..the publications industry made some decent profit from Progressive Rock. For a few years it was very "Hollywood" ...I mean...placing a photo of Keith Emerson on the front of "Hit Parader" or "Circus" magazines was very promotionally "British Invasion" commercialized and contrived with photos, interviews, and above all...an image to rub off in the youth. A concept revolving around ..getting the attention of teenagers so they will in return ...get a job and buy the album. The industry helped create an image for individual prog band members..like Chris Squire where they constantly released pictures of him dressed in capes. When a kid walked into a record store ..there were posters of these musicians dressed in capes or turning an organ upside down. Kids would ask at the counter..."Who is that guy wearing the cape?" In the end ..the kid would buy the album because he saw the poster. That's very "Hollywood". Very Brian Epstein, very Johnny Carson..where the word "practices" applies to the huge profit someone can gross. It's studied and it's based on a psychological affect it has on a majority of people in the world. These are "practices" of high society's con artistry. It's studied throughly and applied into the impact of it's representation in the product. The way to advertise a Prog artist back then..was to set up steps forming into a procedure and then promoting it as much as you could. What the industry did to straight up Rock music was disgraceful and this may very well be off topic...but rips my heart out to think that long ago..decent "Rock" bands,,who played Blues/R&B/Jazz/Rock n' Roll were forced into playing 'Stadium Rock" |
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infocat
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 10 2011 Location: Colorado, USA Status: Offline Points: 4671 |
Posted: February 18 2014 at 09:10 | |
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Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: February 18 2014 at 14:35 | |
[/QUOTE]
Wait, what was the topic of this thread again.... Was prog popular in the '70s.... Very interesting debate and accurate assessment of the related implications music and business-wise by the contributors. Yes it was. So much so the '70s have been reinvented. How? Why? A band promotes an image to appeal - or has a company do that for them (they like to feel "involved"). Marketing. It was and is very difficult for marketeers to promote progressive rock. It didn't really have an image or more particularly, a pop-sociocultural identity (unlike punk, reggae, metal). It was annoyingly, all about music. Execs go into panic. WTF has music got to do with contolling "our" business. And it is business first, music is just the label. It could have been lawn mowers. but you get better drugs and parties and more glamour in the music world... So along came the capes and stuff because those who try and control our perceptions and cash flow know a visual image works easier on people than an audio one. Yet if the audio is not really up to scratch then record sales won't happen. e.g. Kiss who had the most visual image of all at the time - and probably since - but had average sounding records that were not selling, quick get Ezrin to show them how to play. Prog rock had shed loads of great albums, good concert attendances and everything trucking along nicely ...Camel... no image, all music (record company thinks of their OWN position. What happens if a band is in control of the market and not us? OMFG. We'll only be needed for distribution, we're going to be... delivery boys not wheeler dealers. The old idea of new teen pop fads was useful. Turn over generates cash flow. Kids don't want to know about pop stars over the age of.. what? 25? 30? Age-ism is something that can be used, manipulating prejudices is part of marketing - or may be all of it... So get ELP and Black Sabbath on the road, put out records enough to enable "best of" releases (a company favourite) and burn them out. Then get new ones, hell, there are enough musos out there. This is how popular it was, burn 'em out and play to the lowest common denominator. Make millions from ELP they're just product, turn it over quick. They must have got used to having Yes and Deep Purple around. ore or less reliable money spinners. Then Punk turned up. With all that image and pop culture impact they also helped knock down the money spinners. Oh dear, and the record companies paid the Pistols shed loads to help put them put of their own business by attacking the business' real asset, the music makers. Interestingly the Floyd disliked the music companies as did the Pistols who purportedly held the Floyd up (not respectfully) as part of the establishemnt. People will believe perceptions, their own and the socially imposed. Malcolm Mclaren knew this and it may have been him that singlehandedly, ruined the music industry in 1977 - 1978. And then he had the almighty gall to be a music maker himself (Buffalo Girls). God that was horrible... AOR was a fairly safe type of music business approach so in order for record companies to survive and prosper (on their own terms at least) they needed reiable product. So Asia was invented, Yes re-invented (now Atlantic figured out what to do with the erstwhile directionless but talented Trevor Rabin), Genesis streamlined a harder sound and sighs of corporate relief were heard to the ka-ching of ticket and album sales. Instead of having a contempt for their own product generators, they respected their abilities and left the punk and indie bands to off-shoot or smaller labels to see what may happen (REM) and get rid of real threats (Dead Kennedys). To an extent they may have turned many a prog rock muso into a musical version of a record company exec but the business could flourish so long as the marketing can be controlled. I suppose the business too much for granted in the huge '70s era. Even now 40 or so years later the '70s are still pushed (Classic Rock format). The corporate failures since have not generated a rock youth phenomenon except recycling metal.. grunge... make poverty cool.... There was house music, hip hop, rap, garage and jungle, drum and bass all of which wisely kept a vast distance from rock and pop musically and culturally. So far as prog rock goes there has been new bands and sub movements turning up. People still want to play and hear interesting music despite music business still wanting to sell Lady Gaga to Riverside fans (manipulate perceptions). They cannot do the reverse. Oh, and one thing about the record companies. The Old Boss is still there, the New Boss is also about and the New Boss is just as corrupt and in it for a quick million as much as the Old Bosses want to keep turning over those quick millions. |
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