Was prog actually popular in the 70s?? |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: February 15 2014 at 14:48 | |
One of my local FMs played Hocus Pocus back in '72 if memory serves me right. Admittedly not their most progressive offering, but hey.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: AČ Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
Posted: February 14 2014 at 21:14 | |
My local FM station in West Michigan played prog all the time and well into the 80s. That's how I got hooked on Genesis. It's also why Genesis and Peter Gabriel always played Kalamazoo when on tour.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 14 2014 at 13:02 | |
I remember the Bruford band playing small clubs and theatres in Philadelphia during the late 70's. Gong and National Health were playing small venues. It's very difficult to stay a float when you're continuing something artistic for hard core fans to enjoy. If the industry doesn't support you...you're on your own and who knows where that will lead you? Maybe a swamp pit in hell. What if your promotion contains a smaller percentage of effort/work..then you will never leave theatres. Musicians are stuck having odds with the industry if they choose to play what they want to. "Give the people what they want" was and has been a moronic saying for decades. That is a business concept to brainwash everyone who buys cd's in America. "We don't like what you like to play" ...."Just give us what we want?" My question is ..how is it that you know what you want or like ..when you've been raised on contrived nonsense created and controlled with millions of dollars by record executives/promoters/Disc Jockeys?
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 14 2014 at 12:28 | |
Edited by TODDLER - February 14 2014 at 12:33 |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13056 |
Posted: February 13 2014 at 22:43 | |
There is a lot of truth in what you say, Mosh. In Detroit, the real rebel FM stations that started in the 60s and played whole albums and had "Headphones Only" sessions with long prog songs like WABX or WWWW (one of the first quadrophonic stations in the U.S.) were bought out and forced to change their formats by the mid-70s. Another station, WRIF, began playing more commercial rock and a newer station WLLZ (which we jokingly referred to as Whole Lotta Led Zeppelin) almost went straight corporate rock (Journey, Boston, Foreigner, Bad Company, REO, etc.). No wonder everyone started listening to punk and new wave! Edited by The Dark Elf - February 13 2014 at 22:43 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17510 |
Posted: February 13 2014 at 13:39 | |
... became somewhat forbidden ... is how I would say it, but other bands in other parts of the world didn't care about the Anglo-American business rules and continued. No one was going to tell them how to play it, and what to play. It is possible, and likely, that Frank Zappa was a large influence, however, I think it was more about the freedom of the music than anything else. It was different and many times totally off the rocker, and still it rocked on and took you away with it, despite any lyrics. He might have not exactly been an influence in his words, but his actions and very obvious European enjoyment of his music, was for a long time quite far ahead and valuable than the American scene, which was still too commercial for him, and he wasted no opportunity to trash it. Not many folks, in the music business had that great an inner constitution to stand up and be counted and just do it. And I think that many Europeans took to this directly, and forgot about anything else. BUT, don't forget, the Europeans have a massive musical history, so ignoring ideas and thoughts and this and that, and just doing what they want and how they want is usually the result. This is something that the Anglo-American audiences have a hard time with, as they have become so media controlled that attention span has diminished because of it. We won't see that here, but you can see the reviews of people commenting about meandering and wasting time with filler in the longer pieces, and no musician thinks of their piece in that way for the most part. It means something to them, even if it is disguised by the solo, or the part that we think is over done. I call it a "soundtrack", not a song! KC I like a lot, but, for example, compared to Djam Karet's first 5 albums, it is not as free form as we think, although it is very obviously exceedingly well rehearsed and played like it. It does not diminish the importance of their work, when its time was so important, but it gives you an idea that not many bands learned to stick to the music and forget all the outside influences and forces, and this is something that a lot of progressive bands went on to do, and still do, though they might not be as much appreciated as they should. Dream Theater comes to mind as a good example of this. When you look back, that's one heck of a massive catalog of work, and they continued doing their own ideas, and not fall into the mainstream that went metal, or this or that. I think, you have to have a very strong inner character and desire. Almost nothing else can describe it so strongly and well. Another band that also fits here is Marillion. Might not be the very best, but by the time you look at their catalog, it's really hard to say that is not major or very good, though I would prefer a few less small "songs", but those don't bother me as much anymore.
Edited by moshkito - February 13 2014 at 13:43 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 13 2014 at 11:56 | |
Art Rock appreciation in the late 60's, early 70's gradually developed and became widespread when this more relevant term Progressive Rock began to circulate. The record companies were no longer willing to support it with the magnitude they once did and by 75' and up to 79' ..this undertone or disguised plan to take opposite measures with all Prog bands..if they didn't tow the line or if they attempted to write more commercially viable songs and failed was totally obvious to most musicians traveling the road. The story that Frank Zappa told ...regarding the cigar choppin guys (record executives), hiring a hippie to make important decisions was a obvious reality to virtually unknown musicians. That was the moment in time when the decision to no longer invest in Prog began. A great many people were let down by the realization that the hippie culture had somehow gave society more freedom in the arts and here they were forcing musicians to write 3 minute songs. Also the freedom to record a 20 minute epic was forbidden.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17510 |
Posted: February 12 2014 at 23:35 | |
(sorry if I got the quotes incorrectly!) You don't know the meaning of "pretentious" until you read about Bob Dylan's days way back when. Or even the Andy Warhol strength in NY, which became an immense godfather like empire, that was ridiculous about anything but the God. All else was stomped on. I imagine that London also had the Beatles and the Stones on top as the Gods! With folks working hard to make sure The Who and Led Zeppelin were also the royalty! It didn't start with Robert, who was merely protecting his ability and desire to play like he wanted, and not how some folks he should play rock'n'roll! If he was playing Chuck Berry, it's ok to say that but if he was playing Robert Fripp, why would you, or I or anyone else, have to take any crap from anyone else? Answer that first carefully, before you look at the whole thing again! Robert would say something about the "prophets wrote", as he himself was a student of a lot of philosophy and literature, that is rarely mentioned or understood. He knew the difference between men and gods, as it were. And this is the same path that Jesus of Nazareth had to travel. Being himself, and not a version of someone else's ideas and paths! That is THEIR ART. We are simply so media over weaned, and so convinced that our own niches and tastes are the bomb and that the rest is crap, specially when we don't know what it is about, or understand. The BBC, can never be said to be the God that helped progressive music come alive, but they were fairly good about giving so many different bands a listen and a chance. And only Prog Archives, or Space Pirate Radio, can EVER make that claim! The real documentary has to be done about some folks at PA, whose knowledge and talent far supersedes that of a lot of musicians, and are far more helpful in making it come alive than the rest. As such, this could be said to be a media thing, but it wasn't. It was a revolution that started at home, with your ears, and we all finally got together! Bless the gilded stars and their alignment for here we are with music the ultimate heart of your soul!
Edited by moshkito - February 12 2014 at 23:36 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17510 |
Posted: February 12 2014 at 23:14 | |
While these bands were getting sales, along with Pink Floyd, the important fact was that these were all a part of the up and coming FM radio, which was in Stereo, and it wasn't until 74/75 that it started becoming more and more commercial, as the main radio conglomerates set about to buy all the FM stations. Even in Santa Barbara, the number one station was bought out by Texaco, I believe it was. It tells you that they saw another large outlay of finances, and the corporation take over of the creative juices was finalized, and this hurt the creativity of the previous few years badly. It was popular, in the main bands, and they were heard, although I had never heard anyone (even KLOS or KMET) play Genesis full blast like my ole friend did in Santa Barbara, whose TLLDOB got played in its entirety TWICE, due to requests and interests ... and back to back, on a number one station! You will NEVER find that, or hear that kind of excitement and resolve, again, on radio, or in the homemade internet stations these days! I think that "prog" has carved out its niche and stuff, but in the end, it is getting way too spread out because of individual tastes, and this makes it more difficult for someone to say/think that the idiom is doing well. It has to be doing well, when some of these bands are supporting themselves just fine, it seems. But I question how well Transatlantic is doing, unless MP is pulling off miraculous sales in the background, when you hear about them playing 200 seat places, and only half the folks show up. Makes me wonder if they are really that good, or just an excuse to get together and do something while the main bands rest a while. Popular can be relative, just like progressive music is. One just has to be aware that these were not, necessarily, media creation scenes in order to sell you what they want you to have! MOS ... otherwise known as More of the Same. Popularity today, is not as important as any band being able to sell a few CD's off their website, as the overhead of a large company supporting you does not exist, thus, a band from NY, or London, or Paris, would be just fine with 100k sales, and not have to worry, or want, to be in the rat road of fame and money. Despite disco, punk, glam, and crap and then rap, it survived just fine for 30 years, and continues on. On top of that, we survived having to read some folks writing reviews about these bands, that showed that they did not know music, didn't listen to it, and were not interested in anything except their favorite squeeze. But we ignored the insults and came through just fine. We're remembered. Those folks that thought they knew something, except their rock'n'roll, were left out in the dust when their "scene" died, and they did not go to music heaven! If you were around Hollywood and the LA area, you know EXACTLY how this played out. That perfume is now OUT! It's not even about the perfume, either!
Edited by moshkito - February 12 2014 at 23:18 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13056 |
Posted: February 12 2014 at 11:03 | |
The amazing thing about Thick as a Brick, Passion Play (both went to #1 in the US), Close to the Edge, TFTO and Relayer (all 3 charted in the top ten in the US), is that they charted without a real single. What is true now with iTune downloads, and what was true in the 80s with MTV videos was just as true with 45 rpm singles in the early 70s. These are what were played on AM pop stations and FM stereo (unless, like in Detroit, you had progressive stations like WABX and WWWW playing whole albums and album sides).
It is a truism that the single is what sells most albums, but the albums of Tull and Yes during the time period were not conducive to singles, and the radio edits in no way showed the grand picture of their expansive albums. But people bought the damn things anyway, which would be unheard of in this modern age of manure and metal, rap and crap. 2:30 minutes and yer out, just like in the 50s and early 60s.
Even in the 70s, the record industry marketers nearly slit their wrists and gave the band hell when Queen released the 6 minute "Bohemian Rhapsody". There were only isolated instances (and stations that I noted) where you'd hear the whole 18:43 minute album version of "Close to the Edge", or the even longer "Supper's Ready". Yet albums sold and concerts were SRO.
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 12 2014 at 11:05 |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: February 12 2014 at 09:49 | |
I think these are all the details you need to confirm, Prog was popular in the 70's. And in a big way too. :) I'm sure Pink Floyd was in those top ten hits between 71-75. :) |
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MiltonTheatre'sLamp
Forum Newbie Joined: February 11 2014 Location: Milton Status: Offline Points: 6 |
Posted: February 11 2014 at 21:41 | |
YES!
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7264 |
Posted: February 11 2014 at 21:02 | |
I saw Jethro Tull "TAAB," Led Zep "Houses of the Holy, and " Yes "Relayer" (solo tour) shows at this fine old venue, the Chicago Stadium! Every one of those shows was sold out, with a seating capacity of about 20,000. Led Zep's was amazing...it was near our Fourth of July holiday, so the inside of the place was crazy with fireworks! Check out the review of the Led Zep show in 1973: http://www.ledzeppelin.com/show/july-6-1973 Edited by cstack3 - February 11 2014 at 21:40 |
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: January 31 2014 at 23:15 | |
Perhaps there wasn't the genre / sub genre definition in the hey day of rock.
If someone was into Pink Floyd or Tull they could also be into T Rex, Grateful Dead, Elton John and nobody thought (as in worried) too much about genre or pop cultural identification. I recalls seeing some reports of 1979 Yes concerts that had c. 79,000 attendees. Genesis were always popular though Tull had that world wide first ever satellite broadcast. Until punk came along and spoiled the fun. This continued into the '80s... There was an interview with Ian Gillan c the House of Blue Lights (1985) release. he recollected how ,in 1972 a fan could go and see T Rex one week and Deep Purple the next; no problem. But if, using his examples, a fan wanted to see say, Adam And The Ants one week and Iron Maiden the next said fan had to go in disguise. So I'd say prog rock was popular but as part of the overall pop rock scene rather than the almost rigidly defined boundaries that identifies / confuses things today. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: January 11 2014 at 04:02 | |
All those things do not necessarily establish the level of popularity you implied by pointing to DSOTM's aggregate sales. That is all I am saying. Nobody is disputing that prog was popular. But even among yearwise album charts, prog doesn't seem to figure among the top 10 albums in UK. And I repeat, an album charting in the top 10 for a few weeks by no means assures it would finish among the top selling albums of the year, or all time. http://www.ukmix.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30751&highlight=1970s I have also checked out the US listings and they also point to the same. Needless to say, the results don't change if we look at Billboard Top 10 singles rather than albums. These corroborate the aggregate artist albums sales figures I posted earlier. But the album you picked, Dark Side of the Moon, was the only prog album, other than The Wall, that broke through to the list of all time best selling albums. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_in_the_United_States That list features Songs in The Key of Life, Tapestry, Bat Out of Hell, Physical Graffiti, Boston, but no Thick as a Brick, no Close To The Edge, etc. It is perhaps safe to conclude that prog was more popular as a live attraction which didn't necessarily always translate into similarly large album sales. They did enjoy a large dedicated following which accounts for TFTO charting #1 on advance sales but the lack of all time best selling albums might explain why they don't seem to get the same amount of attention - I mean, the classics - as they did in the 70s. I can now place in context why in my DVD of a 70s concert Renaissance urged people to at least get out and buy singles, "the one you can afford" as Jon Camp dubbed it.
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Stool Man
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 30 2007 Location: Anti-Cool (anag Status: Offline Points: 2689 |
Posted: January 09 2014 at 10:39 | |
Every Yes album from 1971 to 1978 was a Top 10 hit in both the UK and US.
Genesis didn't have a US top 20 hit until 1978, but in the UK every album from 1973 onward was a top 10 hit.
Every Jethro Tull album from 1971 to 1975 was a top 10 hit in the US, and in the UK every album from 1968 to 1972 was a top 10 hit.
Focus had Top 3 hit albums in 1971 and 1972 in the UK, plus two Top 20 hit singles in 1973.
The first five ELP albums were all Top 20 hits in both the US and UK. Same goes for their first two live albums.
I just googled all those details. I'm sure you could do the same.
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rotten hound of the burnie crew
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Stool Man
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 30 2007 Location: Anti-Cool (anag Status: Offline Points: 2689 |
Posted: January 09 2014 at 10:18 | |
Have we agreed on the definition of "actually popular"? Let's do that. Edited by Stool Man - January 09 2014 at 10:18 |
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rotten hound of the burnie crew
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: January 09 2014 at 08:36 | |
^This......
Not very many young people (under40) are into prog. My son in law, 31, and daughter, 30, listen to pop, alternative, and indie music and so do their friends from what I can gather.
I know one guy that's 34 who had me burn him a prog sample cd of things I like but he mostly listens to hard edged alternative stuff.
I do know a few people in their 30's who know ELP, Yes, Genesis, etc but they don't really buy and collect prog music.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7264 |
Posted: January 08 2014 at 23:06 | |
I'll second this one, enthusiastically! I saw prog bands in that era play in the largest venues in Chicago and the vicinity, including Jethro Tull TAAB (Chicago Stadium, over 18,000 seats), Yes CTTE (Arie Crown Theater, 4,200 seats), ELP BSS (University of Illinois Assembly Hall, 17,200 seats) etc. I missed quite a few prog and prog related shows in that era including Uriah Heep, Moody Blues and a few others, but generally, these shows were huge and bands like Led Zep packed them in. Popular music? Stuff like disco, ABBA, The Carpenters, Captain & Tenille, etc.? Nah, they either didn't tour or as mentioned, they played smaller halls. The Jackson 5 were one of the only pop bands that seemed to have immense tours and a big following. It was an amazing time....I'm very happy that I was able to experience it!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: January 08 2014 at 08:31 | |
I agree that it is indeed about being popular. That is why placing the album sales of Thriller (an 80s album at that) and DSOTM next to each other doesn't really address the point. If Thriller is an indication of what is popular, prog was not that popular except for Pink Floyd's DSOTM and Wall. It was you who had brought up the question of album sales rather than chart positions (the two are not necessarily the same thing) to argue the point. And going by album sales, prog was not as popular as the top rock and pop bands of the 70s barring Pink Floyd. Album sales accrue over a long period of time while a high chart position may be more reflective of a week or more of hectic selling to a loyal fanbase (see Idler Wheel above).
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