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Topic ClosedWhat was it like in the 60's and 70's?

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presdoug View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 16:07
^I have known demonic people in my own life, and the saying "Hell exists in the form of people you meet" is a true one.
               When i say demonic, i don't mean members of a satanic cult, but sickening, nonetheless. People that use violence and intimidation as a way of maintaining control over someone.
              
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 19:12
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^Not an easy time and place to be young, if you were susceptible and impressionable and able to be manipulated by that mess.
        And even the mainstream media just fed upon a lot of that stuff, only making things worse for the kids, and making those really "in charge" more powerful.
          I've always enjoyed groups like Black Sabbath and Black Widow for their interesting instrumental work, even though the lyrics were a bunch of nonsense at times.

I've seen a Sabbath documentary where Tony Iommi tells the story that it was completely the record companies idea to put the inverted cross on the original first album cover.  They had no idea that was coming and then they got overrun on tour with all kinds of witch/demon/occult nuts and the American media hated them because of it.  It's just like in Spinal Tap, "Death sells" Evil Smile

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 08:54
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^Not an easy time and place to be young, if you were susceptible and impressionable and able to be manipulated by that mess.
        And even the mainstream media just fed upon a lot of that stuff, only making things worse for the kids, and making those really "in charge" more powerful.
          I've always enjoyed groups like Black Sabbath and Black Widow for their interesting instrumental work, even though the lyrics were a bunch of nonsense at times.

I've seen a Sabbath documentary where Tony Iommi tells the story that it was completely the record companies idea to put the inverted cross on the original first album cover.  They had no idea that was coming and then they got overrun on tour with all kinds of witch/demon/occult nuts and the American media hated them because of it.  It's just like in Spinal Tap, "Death sells" Evil Smile

Interesting! Blue Oyster Cult have made the same claim. Eric Bloom and Joe Bouchard briefly discussed this subject with my brother at some small venues in recent years. Even though seperate conversations at different gigs, their stories matched up. They claimed that the record company pressured them to read many books on the occult. They even supplied the books and this was part of a marketing venture in the 70's. Of course this doesn't mean that all bands who wrote on the subject matter of the occult were phony..because some songs were interesting and sincere. Another example of honesty in lyricism can be found in Blues music in the 1930's and 40's..where voodoo, mojo, working roots, and casting spells derived from a Blues artists culture in South Africa. I certainly don't view those songs as a means of marketing Blues, but instead as creative input. Some of the stories in Blues music are evil or dark. Cream performed "Crossroads" which was a song about a guy making a deal with the Devil (I believe?), and of course some of the better known Led Zeppelin songs where lyrics from old Blues tunes were lifted and used for a new original song written by Jimmy Page.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 10:28
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^I have known demonic people in my own life, and the saying "Hell exists in the form of people you meet" is a true one.
               When i say demonic, i don't mean members of a satanic cult, but sickening, nonetheless. People that use violence and intimidation as a way of maintaining control over someone.
              
It sounds as if you've met some praetorians too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 19:40
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^Not an easy time and place to be young, if you were susceptible and impressionable and able to be manipulated by that mess.
        And even the mainstream media just fed upon a lot of that stuff, only making things worse for the kids, and making those really "in charge" more powerful.
          I've always enjoyed groups like Black Sabbath and Black Widow for their interesting instrumental work, even though the lyrics were a bunch of nonsense at times.

I've seen a Sabbath documentary where Tony Iommi tells the story that it was completely the record companies idea to put the inverted cross on the original first album cover.  They had no idea that was coming and then they got overrun on tour with all kinds of witch/demon/occult nuts and the American media hated them because of it.  It's just like in Spinal Tap, "Death sells" Evil Smile

Interesting! Blue Oyster Cult have made the same claim. Eric Bloom and Joe Bouchard briefly discussed this subject with my brother at some small venues in recent years. Even though seperate conversations at different gigs, their stories matched up. They claimed that the record company pressured them to read many books on the occult. They even supplied the books and this was part of a marketing venture in the 70's. Of course this doesn't mean that all bands who wrote on the subject matter of the occult were phony..because some songs were interesting and sincere. Another example of honesty in lyricism can be found in Blues music in the 1930's and 40's..where voodoo, mojo, working roots, and casting spells derived from a Blues artists culture in South Africa. I certainly don't view those songs as a means of marketing Blues, but instead as creative input. Some of the stories in Blues music are evil or dark. Cream performed "Crossroads" which was a song about a guy making a deal with the Devil (I believe?), and of course some of the better known Led Zeppelin songs where lyrics from old Blues tunes were lifted and used for a new original song written by Jimmy Page.

Another Sabbath occult factoid...notice from the 2nd album (Paranoid) on they're all wearing conspicuously massive metal crosses.  After the first album's inverted cross cover (thanks again record company) the following live shows were overrun by occult devotees throwing Ouija boards, tarot cards, rune stones, Witches almanacs, spell/shadow books, and disturbing Satanic artifacts at the band.  Even worse, after show backstage meetings with these more eccentric "fans" oft turned into occasions where spells were cast on behalf of the band.  THEY FREAKED OUT.  Turns out Tony Iommi's father was a little handier than Tony at sheet metal working (who famously lopped a couple fingertips off his left hand before a tour) and created a sheet metal crucifix for each member.  Many misconstrued that they were wearing them as some kind of Satanic statement but the band relied on them as protection from some of their most devoted "fans". 

 

A Robert Fripp series of journal entries tells a tale of the gift of a Ouija board from a "fan" which caused much distress and strange events as a US tour progressed.  RF also took to wearing a crucifix for protection around '74...

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2013 at 05:41
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^Not an easy time and place to be young, if you were susceptible and impressionable and able to be manipulated by that mess.
        And even the mainstream media just fed upon a lot of that stuff, only making things worse for the kids, and making those really "in charge" more powerful.
          I've always enjoyed groups like Black Sabbath and Black Widow for their interesting instrumental work, even though the lyrics were a bunch of nonsense at times.

I've seen a Sabbath documentary where Tony Iommi tells the story that it was completely the record companies idea to put the inverted cross on the original first album cover.  They had no idea that was coming and then they got overrun on tour with all kinds of witch/demon/occult nuts and the American media hated them because of it.  It's just like in Spinal Tap, "Death sells" Evil Smile

Interesting! Blue Oyster Cult have made the same claim. Eric Bloom and Joe Bouchard briefly discussed this subject with my brother at some small venues in recent years. Even though seperate conversations at different gigs, their stories matched up. They claimed that the record company pressured them to read many books on the occult. They even supplied the books and this was part of a marketing venture in the 70's. Of course this doesn't mean that all bands who wrote on the subject matter of the occult were phony..because some songs were interesting and sincere. Another example of honesty in lyricism can be found in Blues music in the 1930's and 40's..where voodoo, mojo, working roots, and casting spells derived from a Blues artists culture in South Africa. I certainly don't view those songs as a means of marketing Blues, but instead as creative input. Some of the stories in Blues music are evil or dark. Cream performed "Crossroads" which was a song about a guy making a deal with the Devil (I believe?), and of course some of the better known Led Zeppelin songs where lyrics from old Blues tunes were lifted and used for a new original song written by Jimmy Page.

Another Sabbath occult factoid...notice from the 2nd album (Paranoid) on they're all wearing conspicuously massive metal crosses.  After the first album's inverted cross cover (thanks again record company) the following live shows were overrun by occult devotees throwing Ouija boards, tarot cards, rune stones, Witches almanacs, spell/shadow books, and disturbing Satanic artifacts at the band.  Even worse, after show backstage meetings with these more eccentric "fans" oft turned into occasions where spells were cast on behalf of the band.  THEY FREAKED OUT.  Turns out Tony Iommi's father was a little handier than Tony at sheet metal working (who famously lopped a couple fingertips off his left hand before a tour) and created a sheet metal crucifix for each member.  Many misconstrued that they were wearing them as some kind of Satanic statement but the band relied on them as protection from some of their most devoted "fans". 

 

A Robert Fripp series of journal entries tells a tale of the gift of a Ouija board from a "fan" which caused much distress and strange events as a US tour progressed.  RF also took to wearing a crucifix for protection around '74...

 
tHANKS for posting this!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2013 at 11:08
^ I'd also add (if I recall the story correctly) Fripp says that after receiving the Ouija from his eccentric fan, whatever piece of luggage it was stored in met with unfortunate circumstances.  Lost by the airlines, repeatedly showing up in baggage claim with a broken handle.  Finally, he'd had enough and tossed the Ouija in a river LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2013 at 13:05
I was born in 70 so I'm a bit too young to talk about this from a first hand experience. Just about the only rock I knew about in the seventies was Peter Frampton, The Beatles and Elton John. LOL. Also, whatever else was on the radio or my parents played which wasn't a lot. My dad was mostly into jazz.

As far as prog goes there wasn't much of it in the sixties despite what people say. True, I wasn't there but it's just a feeling I have. At least in the US I don't think there was any real prog scene in the sixties especially since the album that people say started prog(or at least made people notice it in a major way)was released in October 1969.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2013 at 19:51
Originally posted by Jake Kobrin Jake Kobrin wrote:

I've been talking with some older guys about what music was like in the 60's and 70's and it's very interesting to me. I really wonder what it'd be like to have lived back then. 



STD's were called VD and could  be cured with a single shot of penecillan.  The music was really good too, except for disco and country.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 11:05
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^Not an easy time and place to be young, if you were susceptible and impressionable and able to be manipulated by that mess.
        And even the mainstream media just fed upon a lot of that stuff, only making things worse for the kids, and making those really "in charge" more powerful.
          I've always enjoyed groups like Black Sabbath and Black Widow for their interesting instrumental work, even though the lyrics were a bunch of nonsense at times.

I've seen a Sabbath documentary where Tony Iommi tells the story that it was completely the record companies idea to put the inverted cross on the original first album cover.  They had no idea that was coming and then they got overrun on tour with all kinds of witch/demon/occult nuts and the American media hated them because of it.  It's just like in Spinal Tap, "Death sells" Evil Smile

Interesting! Blue Oyster Cult have made the same claim. Eric Bloom and Joe Bouchard briefly discussed this subject with my brother at some small venues in recent years. Even though seperate conversations at different gigs, their stories matched up. They claimed that the record company pressured them to read many books on the occult. They even supplied the books and this was part of a marketing venture in the 70's. Of course this doesn't mean that all bands who wrote on the subject matter of the occult were phony..because some songs were interesting and sincere. Another example of honesty in lyricism can be found in Blues music in the 1930's and 40's..where voodoo, mojo, working roots, and casting spells derived from a Blues artists culture in South Africa. I certainly don't view those songs as a means of marketing Blues, but instead as creative input. Some of the stories in Blues music are evil or dark. Cream performed "Crossroads" which was a song about a guy making a deal with the Devil (I believe?), and of course some of the better known Led Zeppelin songs where lyrics from old Blues tunes were lifted and used for a new original song written by Jimmy Page.

Another Sabbath occult factoid...notice from the 2nd album (Paranoid) on they're all wearing conspicuously massive metal crosses.  After the first album's inverted cross cover (thanks again record company) the following live shows were overrun by occult devotees throwing Ouija boards, tarot cards, rune stones, Witches almanacs, spell/shadow books, and disturbing Satanic artifacts at the band.  Even worse, after show backstage meetings with these more eccentric "fans" oft turned into occasions where spells were cast on behalf of the band.  THEY FREAKED OUT.  Turns out Tony Iommi's father was a little handier than Tony at sheet metal working (who famously lopped a couple fingertips off his left hand before a tour) and created a sheet metal crucifix for each member.  Many misconstrued that they were wearing them as some kind of Satanic statement but the band relied on them as protection from some of their most devoted "fans". 

 

A Robert Fripp series of journal entries tells a tale of the gift of a Ouija board from a "fan" which caused much distress and strange events as a US tour progressed.  RF also took to wearing a crucifix for protection around '74...

 
tHANKS for posting this!
Strange story about Sabbath. I remember my cousin buying the debut album in 1970. The first time I heard them I knew they were going to influence a new style of playing/writing Rock music. During that time Sabbath were defined at large as "Hard Rock" which seems ridiculous now and in the end, Sabbath came along and broke down doors for "Hard Rock" to be transformed into something heavier sounding with dark lyrics. That is an insight on the premature developing stage of Metal. There were other bands from the 60's that experimented in a heavy sound...especially on guitar and Hendrix on a interview tape states that Blue Cheer were too loud and that he personally couldn't tolerate their volume. There were a few bands that surfaced between 67' and 69' and  were purposely playing at loud volumes to disregard a Psychedelic format and of course only to a degree because they were Psychedelic bands. I think the overall idea to play loud like Pete Townshend on "Live At Leeds" cemented a concept in the heads of musicians like Black Sabbath. This is truly premature development. Metal's roots developed from the idea alone.
The lyrics in "After Forever" were about turning to Christ with a belief and questioning people who had doubt. There are references in the song about the consequences of non believers. The idea to write a song on that subject  is controversial to the selling image of Sabbath.
 
 
In the 70's...I remember in high school how degrading the staff made the teenagers feel about Black Sabbath music. It didn't help our situation that a young man from our school had been murdered in a Satan cult ritual..but this was moronic when I recall exactly what we were put through. All these cults were being chased down by police in the early 70's, after the murder...and Christians were roaming the streets attempting to convert kids walking home from school. Surely their intentions were good, but in the end ..we couldn't be teenagers. After the Satan cult killing in 71' Black Sabbath were on the black list.. Christians opened up housing and roamed the streets. When I was a kid....I used to take off with friends and head to the woods. There would always be an older kid with us and we enjoyed all the simple things in life like building a campfire whatever? We were hearing sing-song chanting, screams. and the pounding of 55 gallon oil cans?. Steve Jublou writes about this in issue # 20 of the "Weird N.J magazine. I used to hear the pounding, the screaming,...and not in just one place..so in point the town was corrupted. Kids went missing years before the 71' ritual and this murder included the entire police force of Millville and Vineland conducting a 2 year investigation while they gave innocent kids the 3rd degree. They managed to deprogramme 90 Devil worshippers, but they had only circumstantial evidence to convict a high society sect.
 
The concept made evident to the police was that there was a high society sect that had programmed teenagers in the Vineland/Millville area to worship Satan and perform a ritual which involved resurrecting yourself as a captain to rule over 40 legions of demons. This was attempted several times after the victims death in 71'. It was reported to have taken place in different areas of Vineland ...with the cult escaping and the police left with evidence of the cult being there, ..but no leads and no case. So... the circus came to town and teenagers were hassled everyday for listening to Black Sabbath music. Several other people have written about their experiences in this town. Some articles are restricted to magazine publication and not available to read on the internet. Some testimonies were featured on Christian websites..but are no longer and are restricted to the victims personal websites.


Edited by TODDLER - October 12 2013 at 11:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 11:42
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:

I was born in 70 so I'm a bit too young to talk about this from a first hand experience. Just about the only rock I knew about in the seventies was Peter Frampton, The Beatles and Elton John. LOL. Also, whatever else was on the radio or my parents played which wasn't a lot. My dad was mostly into jazz.

As far as prog goes there wasn't much of it in the sixties despite what people say. True, I wasn't there but it's just a feeling I have. At least in the US I don't think there was any real prog scene in the sixties especially since the album that people say started prog(or at least made people notice it in a major way)was released in October 1969.
It was widely known to be "Art Rock" in the 60's. The Moody Blues, Family, Procol Harum, The Nice..but it hadn't developed into that definition people later knew as Prog. It wasn't really a Prog scene. It was just about people listening to Art Rock. The Jefferson Airplane released Crown of Creation which featured the song "Lather" . The song creates an atmosphere/style of Syd Barrett's writing. Piper At the Gates of Dawn influenced bands to write differently and some of the ideas for that album were expanded upon in the progressive rock music of the 70's. The Moody Blues influenced Barclay James Harvest and Family influenced Genesis. The ideas and the sounds were later transformed into more complex ..progressive composition.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 13:27
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Strange story about Sabbath. I remember my cousin buying the debut album in 1970. The first time I heard them I knew they were going to influence a new style of playing/writing Rock music. During that time Sabbath were defined at large as "Hard Rock" which seems ridiculous now and in the end, Sabbath came along and broke down doors for "Hard Rock" to be transformed into something heavier sounding with dark lyrics. That is an insight on the premature developing stage of Metal. There were other bands from the 60's that experimented in a heavy sound...especially on guitar and Hendrix on a interview tape states that Blue Cheer were too loud and that he personally couldn't tolerate their volume. There were a few bands that surfaced between 67' and 69' and  were purposely playing at loud volumes to disregard a Psychedelic format and of course only to a degree because they were Psychedelic bands. I think the overall idea to play loud like Pete Townshend on "Live At Leeds" cemented a concept in the heads of musicians like Black Sabbath. This is truly premature development. Metal's roots developed from the idea alone.
The lyrics in "After Forever" were about turning to Christ with a belief and questioning people who had doubt. There are references in the song about the consequences of non believers. The idea to write a song on that subject  is controversial to the selling image of Sabbath.
 
 
In the 70's...I remember in high school how degrading the staff made the teenagers feel about Black Sabbath music. It didn't help our situation that a young man from our school had been murdered in a Satan cult ritual..but this was moronic when I recall exactly what we were put through. All these cults were being chased down by police in the early 70's, after the murder...and Christians were roaming the streets attempting to convert kids walking home from school. Surely their intentions were good, but in the end ..we couldn't be teenagers. After the Satan cult killing in 71' Black Sabbath were on the black list.. Christians opened up housing and roamed the streets. When I was a kid....I used to take off with friends and head to the woods. There would always be an older kid with us and we enjoyed all the simple things in life like building a campfire whatever? We were hearing sing-song chanting, screams. and the pounding of 55 gallon oil cans?. Steve Jublou writes about this in issue # 20 of the "Weird N.J magazine. I used to hear the pounding, the screaming,...and not in just one place..so in point the town was corrupted. Kids went missing years before the 71' ritual and this murder included the entire police force of Millville and Vineland conducting a 2 year investigation while they gave innocent kids the 3rd degree. They managed to deprogramme 90 Devil worshippers, but they had only circumstantial evidence to convict a high society sect.
 
The concept made evident to the police was that there was a high society sect that had programmed teenagers in the Vineland/Millville area to worship Satan and perform a ritual which involved resurrecting yourself as a captain to rule over 40 legions of demons. This was attempted several times after the victims death in 71'. It was reported to have taken place in different areas of Vineland ...with the cult escaping and the police left with evidence of the cult being there, ..but no leads and no case. So... the circus came to town and teenagers were hassled everyday for listening to Black Sabbath music. Several other people have written about their experiences in this town. Some articles are restricted to magazine publication and not available to read on the internet. Some testimonies were featured on Christian websites..but are no longer and are restricted to the victims personal websites.

Insanity.  Never experienced anything like this in the SF Bay Area...I got into Sabbath in '74 as I began high school and I remember being their only fan at my Catholic high school...everyone else was absolutely Led Zep crazy and thought they were 'heavy' and couldn't figure out why I loved Sabbath.  I couldn't figure out how they could consider Zep 'heavy' as compared to Sabbath I considered Zep just hard rock.  Of course, both had the 'dark magic' aura, but I never remember anyone hassled because of being a Sabbath or Zep fan...even in a Catholic school!  Then I stumbled onto Crimso in '77...for me USA & Red were the perfect combination of Sabbath style metal and doom and prog rock.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 13:49
^^^I do believe that Blue Cheer were the loudest band in the world.
       Do you guys remember Black Widow? Their leader Jim Gannon, spent a long time researching Satanism and recreated the rituals in their concerts, but of course in a mock, and not real sense.
          What happened when they reached America?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 13:49
In the 60's, it was possible to see Pink Floyd or Jimi Hendrix in a small venue. The Electric Factory in Philadelphia P.A. hired many of the 60's acts and the setting was quite different because you felt isolated in a sense. The bands were a few feet away..yet everyone sat listening and having a more "down to earth" experience with those bands/artists. That was a concept which died out shortly after Woodstock. Several Rock promoters acknowledged that Woodstock was a financial disaster, yet insisted that the marketing idea of attracting a massive audience to attend a rock concert  could be accomplished by using stadiums like The Beatles did in the early 60's.
 
 
 As the stadium rock progressed into the 70's, it was evident that senseless motives overshadowed the original intention of what the original rock artists were hoping to still produce to an audience. In Humble Pie's version of Dr. John's "I Walk On Gilded Splinters" there are repeated times when individual band members are featured improvising on their instruments. It was then...an attempt for superb musicianship in Rock music. That meant musicians were more progressive sounding JUST in Rock Music alone. That concept died slowly and was no longer relevant to enough people and it didn't often exist in Stadium Rock. With Stadium Rock, I felt cheated from that complete freedom people like Brian Jones had. Record executives had no interest in your multi-talented instrumentation for Rock music and set rules to follow. Suddenly...musicians/artists were placed on huge stages where there was no more "down to earth" connection with the audience. The musician was now 40 or 50 feet away from the first row and gave off a vibe of being a untouchable icon..and that's what made more profit. Rock stars were more worshipped as icons and the seperation created the jackpot for the industry. It was all just a money game for promoters..MORE SO...than the ideas for audience participation , pretty boys, and showboat gimmicks of flamboyant nature having some kind of grand originality from the artists themselves. Claiming that the "times had Changed" because people were ready for something different and the executive who was once a hippie , knew music and forced all or most musicians to concentrate on the "3 minute Rock song" and to forget the rest of creativity in straight foward Rock music.  As an end result....Bad Company became the son of Free. Free was a much more diverse and creative type of band. They DID in fact play straight Rock music that was simplistic...but added creative ideas. Bad Company could not compare to the level musically of Free. This pattern began to circulate amongst several of the Rock bands and it just grew progressively worse. While this was occuring, bands like Deep Purple who had power and authority to make Rock music a little more interesting , took a different direction into "Funk" and "Soul" music prevalent on Stormbringer and Come Taste the Band.
 
 
In the 70's when a musician auditioned for a working band, they were asked to play a variety of styles on their instrument. This unfortunately transformed into a musician only be required to play 1 style . A style that unfortunately didn't aquire eminence talent for the musician. End result in the 80's was that you were pressured into cutting solos short and so when you had a following...and you squeezed in a Weather Report instrumental...even though the audience supported it, you were being chewed up and spit out by agents and managers in the dressing room. Everything developed into less playing, less requirement for musicianship...and more emphasis placed on the dress code, your smile, and your stage presence. Musicians who were still performing Progressive music in places like the Tower Theatre in Philadelphia had already profited the industry and were given some short leadway. Like Eddie Jobson who had worked with Frank Zappa and Roxy Music was a member of U.K along with the other members who had payed their dues and were not given a licence to kill, but were booked and had a following. The new prog bands hadn't a chance in hell unless they had established a reputation prior to the decline of Prog in the music business. That was when commercialization placed unfortunate barriers revolving around what a musician could not do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 14:10
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Strange story about Sabbath. I remember my cousin buying the debut album in 1970. The first time I heard them I knew they were going to influence a new style of playing/writing Rock music. During that time Sabbath were defined at large as "Hard Rock" which seems ridiculous now and in the end, Sabbath came along and broke down doors for "Hard Rock" to be transformed into something heavier sounding with dark lyrics. That is an insight on the premature developing stage of Metal. There were other bands from the 60's that experimented in a heavy sound...especially on guitar and Hendrix on a interview tape states that Blue Cheer were too loud and that he personally couldn't tolerate their volume. There were a few bands that surfaced between 67' and 69' and  were purposely playing at loud volumes to disregard a Psychedelic format and of course only to a degree because they were Psychedelic bands. I think the overall idea to play loud like Pete Townshend on "Live At Leeds" cemented a concept in the heads of musicians like Black Sabbath. This is truly premature development. Metal's roots developed from the idea alone.
The lyrics in "After Forever" were about turning to Christ with a belief and questioning people who had doubt. There are references in the song about the consequences of non believers. The idea to write a song on that subject  is controversial to the selling image of Sabbath.
 
 
In the 70's...I remember in high school how degrading the staff made the teenagers feel about Black Sabbath music. It didn't help our situation that a young man from our school had been murdered in a Satan cult ritual..but this was moronic when I recall exactly what we were put through. All these cults were being chased down by police in the early 70's, after the murder...and Christians were roaming the streets attempting to convert kids walking home from school. Surely their intentions were good, but in the end ..we couldn't be teenagers. After the Satan cult killing in 71' Black Sabbath were on the black list.. Christians opened up housing and roamed the streets. When I was a kid....I used to take off with friends and head to the woods. There would always be an older kid with us and we enjoyed all the simple things in life like building a campfire whatever? We were hearing sing-song chanting, screams. and the pounding of 55 gallon oil cans?. Steve Jublou writes about this in issue # 20 of the "Weird N.J magazine. I used to hear the pounding, the screaming,...and not in just one place..so in point the town was corrupted. Kids went missing years before the 71' ritual and this murder included the entire police force of Millville and Vineland conducting a 2 year investigation while they gave innocent kids the 3rd degree. They managed to deprogramme 90 Devil worshippers, but they had only circumstantial evidence to convict a high society sect.
 
The concept made evident to the police was that there was a high society sect that had programmed teenagers in the Vineland/Millville area to worship Satan and perform a ritual which involved resurrecting yourself as a captain to rule over 40 legions of demons. This was attempted several times after the victims death in 71'. It was reported to have taken place in different areas of Vineland ...with the cult escaping and the police left with evidence of the cult being there, ..but no leads and no case. So... the circus came to town and teenagers were hassled everyday for listening to Black Sabbath music. Several other people have written about their experiences in this town. Some articles are restricted to magazine publication and not available to read on the internet. Some testimonies were featured on Christian websites..but are no longer and are restricted to the victims personal websites.

Insanity.  Never experienced anything like this in the SF Bay Area...I got into Sabbath in '74 as I began high school and I remember being their only fan at my Catholic high school...everyone else was absolutely Led Zep crazy and thought they were 'heavy' and couldn't figure out why I loved Sabbath.  I couldn't figure out how they could consider Zep 'heavy' as compared to Sabbath I considered Zep just hard rock.  Of course, both had the 'dark magic' aura, but I never remember anyone hassled because of being a Sabbath or Zep fan...even in a Catholic school!  Then I stumbled onto Crimso in '77...for me USA & Red were the perfect combination of Sabbath style metal and doom and prog rock.  
That's because the tragic corruption in Vineland N.J. was vast and extreme only if you lived there. To the rest of the world...it was an isolated situation and logically...that tells us that if it DID or Has happened in other cities of the world ...it would be outnumbered by the astronomical amount of times it has not occured. It took me quite a while to accept that truth/knowledge and only due to the vastness I experienced. The term "Metal" began to circulate quickly and kids put an end to calling Sabbath "Hard Rock". Considering the band Mountain were labeled "Hard Rock" in 69'/70'...during "The Heavy Bands" era... and the Sabbath debut was released in 1970, there is no doubt how the band was catagorized "Hard" for a brief time instead of Metal.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 14:17
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^^^I do believe that Blue Cheer were the loudest band in the world.
       Do you guys remember Black Widow? Their leader Jim Gannon, spent a long time researching Satanism and recreated the rituals in their concerts, but of course in a mock, and not real sense.
          What happened when they reached America?
I never read much info on this band. I have Sacrifice and it's off the wall a bit. It's actually Jazzy. They reached the shores of America? Did they perform in Vineland N.J.? Shocked   There was a strange occult related rumour circulating in the 70's about the band called Gracious. Do you recall this?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 14:22
Yes, i read that they did arrive in America, when it was just reeling from the Manson Family murders, and that they went down pretty controversially, though i don't recall too many details.
           Don't know if they were at Vineland, specifically.
         I have Sacrifice and the third self titled album-great music, though the ritual stuff i can't relate to.
              I have heard of Gracious by name only.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 15:24
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^I have known demonic people in my own life, and the saying "Hell exists in the form of people you meet" is a true one.
               When i say demonic, i don't mean members of a satanic cult, but sickening, nonetheless. People that use violence and intimidation as a way of maintaining control over someone.
              
 
"Far worse things, await men, than death!" Count Dracula in the original film with Bela Lugosi
 
I'm also thinking that the discussion on the __________ and the __________ does not belong here. There were a lot of great things in terms of the arts that were far more valuable, in my estimation.
 
It also left behind a much greater history and story is in the arts ... and I always thought that this title and discussion is far more interesting in that area. I will never deny, or think that bad things, or different things didn't happen at all, btw!
 
But I find that getting beat up by some cops in Chicago, was far worse than some of these sad stories. Or being frisked during Kent State by the National Guard in Madison, on your way to work, when you are a sensible teenager and affected by your environment!


Edited by moshkito - October 12 2013 at 15:39
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 18:46
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Yes, i read that they did arrive in America, when it was just reeling from the Manson Family murders, and that they went down pretty controversially, though i don't recall too many details.
           Don't know if they were at Vineland, specifically.
 
I should have posted a smiley face ..as I was being sarcastic about Vineland.
         I have Sacrifice and the third self titled album-great music, though the ritual stuff i can't relate to.
              I have heard of Gracious by name only.
 
I have to check this out. thanks for posting!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 18:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^I have known demonic people in my own life, and the saying "Hell exists in the form of people you meet" is a true one.
               When i say demonic, i don't mean members of a satanic cult, but sickening, nonetheless. People that use violence and intimidation as a way of maintaining control over someone.
              
 
"Far worse things, await men, than death!" Count Dracula in the original film with Bela Lugosi
 
I'm also thinking that the discussion on the __________ and the __________ does not belong here. There were a lot of great things in terms of the arts that were far more valuable, in my estimation.
 
Why not? These were real experiences in the 60's and 70's. I for one do not believe in the supernatural. Any pain inflicted upon us in our youth direct from these sadistic nut cases had to do with the physical sensation it gave to them and not some legion of demons. They just depended on the supernatural as a crutch to make themselves feel important. We're just observing it's presence in the 60's and 70's as a matter of fact.
 
It also left behind a much greater history and story is in the arts ... and I always thought that this title and discussion is far more interesting in that area. I will never deny, or think that bad things, or different things didn't happen at all, btw!
 
But I find that getting beat up by some cops in Chicago, was far worse than some of these sad stories. Or being frisked during Kent State by the National Guard in Madison, on your way to work, when you are a sensible teenager and affected by your environment!
 
That was a nightmare. A living nightmare! Good point of reference.
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