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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 23:09
There's a continuum that goes between two polar extremes, intricate pre-arrangements at one end and seat of the pants improvisation at the other. I am happy to acknowledge the artistic value of both. But as we've been discussing they blend together, and even at the polar extremes they are not mutually exclusive. Zappa is a great case in point. While he was improvising on guitar, he would play a phrase, then play it again changing a couple things, then play a version of it again changing some more things (e.g. The title track off of Shut Up N' Play Yer Guitar Some More). This is structure. He would also improvise against rock fugues, in which, improvised or not, is inherently structured (e.g. Soup and Old Clothes from the Shut Up 'N' Play album). This is also structure. Lark's Tongue Crimson would do a whole group improv that resulted in some very well loved arrangements. Over time, though they were still improvising within the arrangements as the arrangements became more settled upon and refined and with this became structured. To the extent that I understand Genesis' GROUP writing process, they would put stuff together in the same way. The difference mainly was that they didn't do it live.

Edited by HackettFan - September 22 2013 at 23:25
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2013 at 08:39

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


...
I recall saying that I knew what I understood that word to mean, and as a stand-alone sentence I also knew what I understood that sentence to mean. But in the context you used it, I said I did not have a clue what you were talking about. But thanks for the dictionary definition, can we have pictures next time?
...
Nope. You've lost me. You've jumped from a dictionary definition to an abstract use of the word that has no contextual references or explanation. Whatever clarity you think you have imparted has not helped me understand the pseudo intellectual put-down: "Only if you are not capable of thinking in quotidian terms."

I compared the definition and added examples, but I actually think that you can not see that because for you it's all "pop musik" that has no meaning. Thus, the beginning of the "krautrock" special is just another Pedro-like bullpucky that could not have any meaning, but he chooses to add meaning to it. Same thing, when I ended up doing an empassioned review on Neil Young's film, but it has no meaning for you, as you might not have had friends that were a part of those days, and got hurt as well. That pain, makes something off you ... what you do with it, is another story.

... helpless helpless ... because you don't want to see the images that were right there? You saw them, too! And to think that musicians did not get affected by it ... that's even more presumptious than my own ideas ... trying to add some depth to them ... that might not be there ... like there isn't for so much other stuff that prays on your emotions to make you feel like it is important!

This is what created "krautrock" and the music revolution in the 60's, of which the Beatles were also a part of it ... otherwise things like the White Album is just sh*t ... meaningless sh*t! ... and we might as well go around with "we're in it for the money!" ... since nothing else matters anyway!

I seriously doubt that is what you want and are trying to say!

And in this situation, improvisation helped make the individuality of a lot of the music that we love. It might have been just the freedom of doing what we want kind of thing ...

Edited by moshkito - September 23 2013 at 08:42
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2013 at 12:56
The music revolution in the 60's... Except that it started in the late 40's/early 50's. Ermm
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2013 at 13:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


...
I recall saying that I knew what I understood that word to mean, and as a stand-alone sentence I also knew what I understood that sentence to mean. But in the context you used it, I said I did not have a clue what you were talking about. But thanks for the dictionary definition, can we have pictures next time?
...
Nope. You've lost me. You've jumped from a dictionary definition to an abstract use of the word that has no contextual references or explanation. Whatever clarity you think you have imparted has not helped me understand the pseudo intellectual put-down: "Only if you are not capable of thinking in quotidian terms."

I compared the definition and added examples, but I actually think that you can not see that because for you it's all "pop musik" that has no meaning. Thus, the beginning of the "krautrock" special is just another Pedro-like bullpucky that could not have any meaning, but he chooses to add meaning to it. Same thing, when I ended up doing an empassioned review on Neil Young's film, but it has no meaning for you, as you might not have had friends that were a part of those days, and got hurt as well. That pain, makes something off you ... what you do with it, is another story.

1. I never use the term "pop musik" - it is disparaging and incorrect - I use the term "pop music" and I mean it in the most reverential way possible, unlike elitist snobs who peer down their noses at Pop Music, I do not regard it as a second-class, low-brow art form. When I say all Progressive Rock is Pop Music I mean that in the actual factual way, because that is what it is. I do not attempting to elevate it to the grandeurs of high-brow, high-status art with a capital "A", pretending that has more meaning than a ditty by Barry Manilow or Elton John and should occupy the lofty, cobwebbed annuls of some intellectual academic institution, to be pondered, admired and discussed at length, ad nausea, but never used for enjoyment or *gasp* entertainment.
2. Be consistent Pedro - Every creative art thing has meaning or none of it does - pick one but don't vacillate between them as the "inner movie" directs.
3. I made no comment on the Neil Young film, nor shall I for I have not seen it. The only conversation we have had around it was your petulant tantrum after someone (not me) moved your film review of a non-PA artist out of the Prog Lounge and into General ... what was the word you used? (alas forum rules prevent me from repeating what you actually wrote) ... Music Discussions. It is unwise to second guess what my opinion of a film I've never seen would be, or whether it had meaning for me. And no, I haven't read your review and you can't make me. Tongue
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

... helpless helpless ... because you don't want to see the images that were right there? You saw them, too! And to think that musicians did not get affected by it ... that's even morepresumptuouss than my own ideas ... trying to add some depth to them ... that might not be there ... like there isn't for so much other stuff that prays on your emotions to make you feel like it is important!
Pretty rant, but still no closer to explaining "quotidian terms" used in the context as you did. Look, replace the ponsy, pretentious word "quotidian" with the everyday word "everyday":
 
 "Only if you are not capable of thinking in everyday terms." ... hmm, sounds really insulting like that don't it?
 
 "Catch the beginning of the "krautrock" special, for a true example of a "everyday" study" ... now that doesn't  make sense at all does it? The birth of Krautrock was far from everyday, it was a product of its time, born of the social, political and musical circumstances of that age, the German's have a word for that that English speakers bandy around when they want to sound clever, and it isn't "quotidian".
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

This is what created "krautrock" and the music revolution in the 60's, of which the Beatles were also a part of it ... otherwise things like the White Album is just sh*t ... meaningless sh*t! ... and we might as well go around with "we're in it for the money!" ... since nothing else matters anyway!

Less pretty rant, but ... relevance? Seriously. Relevance?
 
What relevance does this have to Steve Hackett using Bach as inspiration to writing Horizons? If you would like me to be even more factual than that - what relevance does this have to Steve Hackett using an interpretation of the Prelude to Bach Cello Sonata No. 1 by Andrés Segovia as inspiration to writing Horizons?
 
Watch, listen and learn:
 
Is that "quotidian"? Is that "the spirit of the age?" Is that a product of 1972 or of 1712?
 
Did Hackett do a bad thing there? No he did not - he did a beautiful thing. And it is something that composers and musicians have been doing since the year dot. Remember that atrocious Mozart film that unkindly and inaccurately vilified Saleiri - that scene where Mozart improvise on a tune that Saleiri wrote in his honour, that same tune that Mozart then used as the basis for the march in The Marriage of Figaro... is that not the same thing?
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I seriously doubt that is what you want and are trying to say!
You're not wrong there. But knowing that you still couldn't answer a direct question.
 


Edited by Dean - September 24 2013 at 13:17
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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2013 at 08:47
Now that was great Dean, You saved my day by making me watch that old man play that wonderful piece.
Thanks.
 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2013 at 08:58
^ Andrés Segovia was pretty good too. Wink
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2013 at 09:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...
 
 "Only if you are not capable of thinking in everyday terms." ... hmm, sounds really insulting like that don't it?
 ...
 
Except that the "everyday" you mention does not, necessarily, include 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. And most folks, I don't think -- other than the likes of you that obviously pays attention to some detail, would associate everyday with the context that I was trying to exemplify!
 
Yesterday, for me, in the 60's was NOT, or NEVER, everyday ... not sure you want to get beat up on your head everyday, and then be frisked every day on the way in and out of work!
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:05
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

The music revolution in the 60's... Except that it started in the late 40's/early 50's. Ermm
 
I have always accepted that, and it is well documented in the Tom Dowd DVD.
 
I simply STATE, that the MEDIA, in color, helped make a lot of this stuff more important than it really was, and in many ways it took the shine and importance out of the arts themselves ... the flower, the hair and the nudity was more important than anything else, so to speak!
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:13
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...
 
 "Only if you are not capable of thinking in everyday terms." ... hmm, sounds really insulting like that don't it?
 ...
 
Except that the "everyday" you mention does not, necessarily, include 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. And most folks, I don't think -- other than the likes of you that obviously pays attention to some detail, would associate everyday with the context that I was trying to exemplify!
 
Yesterday, for me, in the 60's was NOT, or NEVER, everyday ... not sure you want to get beat up on your head everyday, and then be frisked every day on the way in and out of work!
Confused That's not what "everyday" means. Everyday actually does mean things that (can) happen every day - it means "commonplace". Eating lunch or going to the bathroom are everyday things, they are quotidian. Getting clowned over the head by an over-zealous security ape with a night-stick during a student demo at some hippy whatever-you've-got-we're-against-it sit-in in the late 1960s was not an everyday thing then and it isn't now. 
 
 
Quote quotidian

Quotidian is a fancy way of saying "daily" or "ordinary." Quotidian events are the everyday details of life.

When you talk about the quotidian, you're talking about the little things in life: everyday events that are normal and not that exciting. Going to the store, doing chores, working or going to school, and brushing your teeth are all quotidian. If you take a spaceship to Mars, that would be unusual and extraordinary: the opposite of quotidian

(from vocabulary.com)


Edited by Dean - September 24 2013 at 12:46
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:49

 The Flower, the hair, and the nudity in music

 
I'm sure that the flower, the hair, and the nudity had a great deal to do with the music creations. This is what I hear. This is what I gather a majority of humans believe. This is what I hear in the church of your choice. This is what I hear from the audiences. My mother is a werewolf, Kiss are outstanding musicians, and Paul is dead. People can believe whatever a journalist writes and they can personally do whatever their heart desires, but is it true? Did the flower, the hair, and the nudity inspire Jimi Hendrix to write "Room Full Of Mirrors?"...really? did it? Since our small minded digital age exists and we have made a thousand analogies and compartmentalized the 60's on a screen , no one in particular seems to give the artists of those times the benefit of the doubt. It's always summed up or defined directly by connecting the music to the culture and that is farce and a huge lie. An artist does not always become inspired by the culture which surrounds them. Moronic and senseless things like the style of hair and clothes. You know like....I'm from Africa..so the jungle made me do it or I'm from New York city so I wrote Punk Rock. That's very shallow.
 
"If all the hippies cut their hair...well I don't care"  "If 6 turned out to be 9, I don't mind". The simple direct meaning of those words are lost today. There are too many rules written in stone by rock journalists for the mass to think for themselves. Ann Wilson wrote Barracuda in anger because she didn't appreciate the sexual insinuations. Ann and Nancy Wilson  thought the 80's was a obstruction to their down to earth presentation because they were being forced by degenerate executives to dress up like plastic bimbo playboy dolls, while a zillion Americans believe the opposite. In 1967 executives were roaming the huge cities on foot and trying to sign every long haired person who shook a tambourine. Ask the Grateful Dead about that sometime. It's actually not very extreme to say so. It's more extreme to believe that artists thrived on revolving all of their music around shallowness like that.


Edited by TODDLER - September 24 2013 at 10:52
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:05
I think some of us are giving the media more credit than it is due.

Edited by Dean - September 24 2013 at 12:35
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2013 at 13:43
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think some of us are giving the media more credit than it is due.
 
I don't know, how ANY OF US, can separate the rest of our lives ... from our living.
 
It's like saying that you never went to the movies, never saw a play, never read the paper, never saw the TV ... and of course ... never went to a concert! IN THAT DAY!
 
It is not the "end all be all", but it is a large part of it.
 
The important part of it, for us here, and specially that which became known as "progressive", was that we went out and found inspiration that was away from the mainstream, and it stood up ... and very well ... and eventually, and we can consider PA a part of it ... because it is a "media".
 
It is, as you suggest, a bit simplistic to say that 2001, A Space Odyssey, helped define a dumb thing called "Space Rock", and yes I can understand that ... but it was the same for many of the things that we took from those days, that we liked and many that we didn't. I didn't like all the dope ... I found it stupid and senseless!  But a band or two doing a song about war monsters, be they iron men, or Edgar Broughton Band ... is all of a sudden no longer important ... and I find that weird!
 
It's all a part of each other ... those two pieces would fall apart today for a twerk young girl! And you think the media is not a big deal?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2013 at 16:34
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think some of us are giving the media more credit than it is due.
 
I don't know, how ANY OF US, can separate the rest of our lives ... from our living.
 
It's like saying that you never went to the movies, never saw a play, never read the paper, never saw the TV ... and of course ... never went to a concert! IN THAT DAY!
 
It is not the "end all be all", but it is a large part of it.
 
The important part of it, for us here, and specially that which became known as "progressive", was that we went out and found inspiration that was away from the mainstream, and it stood up ... and very well ... and eventually, and we can consider PA a part of it ... because it is a "media".
 
It is, as you suggest, a bit simplistic to say that 2001, A Space Odyssey, helped define a dumb thing called "Space Rock", and yes I can understand that ... but it was the same for many of the things that we took from those days, that we liked and many that we didn't. I didn't like all the dope ... I found it stupid and senseless!  But a band or two doing a song about war monsters, be they iron men, or Edgar Broughton Band ... is all of a sudden no longer important ... and I find that weird!
 
It's all a part of each other ... those two pieces would fall apart today for a twerk young girl! And you think the media is not a big deal?
What the hell are you prattling on about? I was with you all the way on "I don't know" but you lost me after that.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2013 at 16:48
Mosh always speaks for everyone..........ALL OF US. What a pipe dream.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2013 at 05:44
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I don't know, how ANY OF US, can separate the rest of our lives ... from our living.

Who amongst us is doing that?
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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I live a life but I make a living.
 
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2013 at 11:17
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think some of us are giving the media more credit than it is due.
 
I don't know, how ANY OF US, can separate the rest of our lives ... from our living.
 
It's like saying that you never went to the movies, never saw a play, never read the paper, never saw the TV ... and of course ... never went to a concert! IN THAT DAY!
 
It is not the "end all be all", but it is a large part of it.
 
The important part of it, for us here, and specially that which became known as "progressive", was that we went out and found inspiration that was away from the mainstream, and it stood up ... and very well ... and eventually, and we can consider PA a part of it ... because it is a "media".
 
It is, as you suggest, a bit simplistic to say that 2001, A Space Odyssey, helped define a dumb thing called "Space Rock", and yes I can understand that ... but it was the same for many of the things that we took from those days, that we liked and many that we didn't. I didn't like all the dope ... I found it stupid and senseless!  But a band or two doing a song about war monsters, be they iron men, or Edgar Broughton Band ... is all of a sudden no longer important ... and I find that weird!
 
It's all a part of each other ... those two pieces would fall apart today for a twerk young girl! And you think the media is not a big deal?
What the hell are you prattling on about? I was with you all the way on "I don't know" but you lost me after that.
 
Sometimes, it is no longer worth the discussion. You say that everything influences you in a poem, and discussion, and then say that improvisation is impossible, and that creativity is almost always a copy!
 
In America, the improvisational elements in music were taken out by the media and record companies, in favor of their own "hits" and "stars" and in some cases "movie stars". So, one could easily state that the media was a problem ... but it is a discussion that still has too many folks enamored with the "stars" and the "fame" game, and the "top ten" game, which is the case here.
 
Nothing here is influenced by nothing ... it's a perfect oxymoron! 
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2013 at 11:23
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

...
 Zappa is a great case in point. While he was improvising on guitar, he would play a phrase, then play it again changing a couple things, then play a version of it again changing some more things (e.g. The title track off of Shut Up N' Play Yer Guitar Some More). This is structure. ...
 
I do not disagree, and in the case of Frank, he might have changed even more, depending on which/what "instrument" he might have been thinking of, or simply as you say, fooling around on a note in a scale or such.
 
Those who can go around in circles in these things, can do that. But I would find it difficult to think that Jon McGlothlin (for example) can think that fast to keep up with his fingers ... or a Jaco. There is a point, where I am not sure, and it is not "certified" that a person's playing something, is quite composed, or thought about before hand ... it could, and for most of us that do not have that ability ... it's like ... it has to!
 
It's the same thing for Keith Jarrett and Egberto Gismonti ... I think that sometimes they are moving so fast and changing to something, that they might not see what happened, but they are so good at adjusting and blending the result, that it is not an issue for them.
 
Again, I simply do not know that the "mind" is 100% of the composition ...
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2013 at 12:30
How bewildering things rapidly become...

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think some of us are giving the media more credit than it is due.

I don't know, how ANY OF US, can separate the rest of our lives ... from our living.
My comment: "I think some of us are giving the media more credit than it is due" referred directly to Toddler's post before it and nothing else.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
It's like saying that you never went to the movies, never saw a play, never read the paper, never saw the TV ... and of course ... never went to a concert! IN THAT DAY!
I believe that it was I who said every movie you've ever seen and every book you've ever read can influence you in someway.
 
"IN THAT DAY" still does not mean everyday or quotidian.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

  
It is not the "end all be all", but it is a large part of it.
I never said that it was, or wasn't.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

  

The important part of it, for us here, and specially that which became known as "progressive", was that we went out and found inspiration that was away from the mainstream, and it stood up ... and very well ... and eventually, and we can consider PA a part of it ... because it is a "media".
Eh? No one "went out and found inspiration" - that implies deliberate intent and I don't believe there was any such thing.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

  

It is, as you suggest, a bit simplistic to say that 2001, A Space Odyssey, helped define a dumb thing called "Space Rock", and yes I can understand that ... but it was the same for many of the things that we took from those days, that we liked and many that we didn't. I didn't like all the dope ... I found it stupid and senseless!  But a band or two doing a song about war monsters, be they iron men, or Edgar Broughton Band ... is all of a sudden no longer important ... and I find that weird!
I don't recall suggesting anything of the sort. It is a lot more than simplistic, it is absurd. Influences inspire, they do not define.
 
"things that we took from those days" still does not mean everyday or quotidian.
 
What meaning of "the dope" are you using here?
Quote dope play_w2("D0343300")
n.
1. Informal
               a. A narcotic, especially an addictive narcotic.
               b. Narcotics considered as a group.
               c. An illicit drug, especially marijuana.
2. A narcotic preparation used to stimulate a racehorse.
3. Informal A stupid person; a dolt.
4. Informal Factual information, especially of a private nature.
5. Chemistry An absorbent or adsorbent material used in certain manufacturing processes, such as the nitroglycerin used in making dynamite.
6. A type of lacquer formerly used to protect, waterproof, and tauten the cloth surfaces of airplane wings.
I suspect it is (4) - factual information.
 
 
Who ever said anti-war songs, whether that is Saviour Machine, Iron Man, Sky Pilot or American Boy Soldier, are no longer important?
 
All of a sudden? When did that happen?

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's all a part of each other ... those two pieces would fall apart today for a twerk young girl! And you think the media is not a big deal?
I have no idea what Mylie Cirus has to do with anything.
 
Going back to the beginning of this post, again, my comment: "I think some of us are giving the media more credit than it is due" referred directly to Toddler's post before it and nothing else.
 
I never said the media is not a big deal. That is absurd.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

What the hell are you prattling on about? I was with you all the way on "I don't know" but you lost me after that.
 
Sometimes, it is no longer worth the discussion. You say that everything influences you in a poem, and discussion, and then say that improvisation is impossible, and that creativity is almost always a copy!
It is never worth the discussion when you fail to comprehend the written word. I love discussion, but when people put words into my mouth that I never said it becomes a chore having to correct them; when they misrepresent what I have said with such alarming regularity that it starts to look deliberate and mendacious I have to wonder if they even read my posts at all. When I don't understand something I ask the person who made it to explain - if that does not get a straight answer or the answer has to be dragged out of them over the space of several posts then I begin to doubt whether they actually understood what they wrote themselves. Sometimes, it is no longer worth the discussion.
 
I never said that improvisation is impossible. That is absurd.
I never said that creativity is almost always a copy. That is absurd.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

In America, the improvisational elements in music were taken out by the media and record companies, in favor of their own "hits" and "stars" and in some cases "movie stars". So, one could easily state that the media was a problem ... but it is a discussion that still has too many folks enamored with the "stars" and the "fame" game, and the "top ten" game, which is the case here.
Gah. Same old same old.
 
This forum, and the people who post on it, and all those other people out there who like the non-mainstream arts, have never been enamoured by the "fame game" - they didn't buy that stuff now and they didn't buy it in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, or at anytime in the 21st century. Do people on Classical Music Archives go on and on and on and on and on about "hits" and "stars" and "fame"? Of course they don't, and neither should we. It is absurd.
 
When will people like you get it into their heads that the people who make the "hits" and "stars" and the people who like the "hits" and "stars" are not the same people who make the music we like and like the music we like. Even if by some magic genie wish we could make the record companies pour money into Progressive music, the girls who fawn over Justine Bieber and buy all the music in the BoredBill Top 40 still would not like Van der Graaf Generator or Genesis or Dream Theatre.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

  

Nothing here is influenced by nothing ... it's a perfect oxymoron! 
I never said that. It is absurd.
What?
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 10:55
Hi,
 
(Post removed as un-necessary)


Edited by moshkito - October 01 2013 at 09:17
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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