The Christian Thread

The discussion a few days ago reminded me of something I put together back when I was an undergraduate.  I managed to dig it up on my old hard drive! 

The rich metanarrative of the Bible, which is revealed typologically, has this interestingly specific pattern regarding judgment, redemption, and the (Sabbath) rest. 

The first phase consists of chaos and unrest.  The second phase consists of God's spirit over (commanding) the water.  The third phase consists of order and rest.

Creation

1. Chaos and unrest

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Gen. 1:2)

2. God's spirit over the water

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Gen 1:2)

3. Order and rest

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.  (Gen 2:2)


The Noahic Flood

1. Chaos and unrest

The flood of judgment (Gen. 7)

2. God's spirit over the water

And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged (Gen 8:1)

Noah also sends out a dove!

3. Order and rest

The ark finds rest on Ararat, the dove finds rest for the sole of her foot, Noah’s name signifies rest, and Noah offers a sacrifice of rest ("soothing," verse 21) to Yahweh, and Yahweh smelled (ruach) it. (Gen. 8)


The Mosaic Exodus

1. Chaos and unrest

Crossing the Red Sea (Ex. 14)

2. God's spirit over the water

Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. (Ex. 14:21)

And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, [and] the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.  (Ex. 15:8)

3. Order and rest

The land of Canaan represents God’s rest (cf., Deut. 12:9; Ps. 95:11)


Jonah

1. Chaos and unrest

During his naval escape, the ocean grew violent (Jonah 1)

2. God's spirit over the water

Jonah is cast overboard; Jonah's name means "dove."*

And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him (Matt 3:16)

*Note that the seamen struggled ("worked") to overcome the judgment on their own, but their efforts could not calm the ocean!

3. Order and rest

The sea became calm (Jonah 1:15)


The Desolation of Israel

1. Chaos and unrest

Babylonian and Assyrian invasions from the North were “like the waters of Noah” flooding Israel (Isa. 54:9); devastation results, recalling the images of “formless and void” (Jer. 4:23-28) and “darkness” (Isa. 42:7).

2. God's spirit over the waters

Isa 11:2, 15, et al.

3. Order and rest

Isa 62

++++

This typological pattern sheds light on Jesus' distinction in John 3:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”  (emphasis mine)

Edited by Epignosis - August 05 2013 at 13:55

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: That's really interesting, I've never heard anything like that before!  Do you know if that pattern continues into the New Testament narratives at all?

It does, but the pattern becomes more nuanced and interesting.  For example, Jesus controls the wind and water, but the word used for wind there is not pneuma, the Greek word translated "Spirit."  The implication of this, to me,  is that Jesus is that same provider of deliverance, the essential outpouring of God.

This theme is how I decided the title of Still the Waters, by the way. 

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: ^I always assumed it was just a reference to Jesus calming the storm (one of my favorite passages of Scripture); but interesting to know that it means that and much more! How is the StW remix/remaster project coming along, btw?

There's so much more intra-Gospel meaning to Jesus calming that particular storm (he was asleep, they were going to deal with a man of the Gerasenes, etc.).  That whole story is just a lead in to the loaves and fishes.  Tomorrow I'll talk about it I think.

I have two songs to work on.  One will be easy, and one will be hard.

I watched the Passion last night. Even as a non believer, I thought it was a great movie, and depicted the horrors Jesus endured very well. That part is usually very overlooked in movies and such, usually people just say he died for our sins, but he did a lot more that died!
The clearer and clearer the reality of Christianity becomes and the more and more I see through the corruption of most churches, the more I like it. Still, I don't think I'm currently at a time in my life where I could believe

smartpatrol wrote: I watched the Passion last night. Even as a non believer, I thought it was a great movie, and depicted the horrors Jesus endured very well. That part is usually very overlooked in movies and such, usually people just say he died for our sins, but he did a lot more that died! The clearer and clearer the reality of Christianity becomes and the more and more I see through the corruption of most churches, the more I like it. Still, I don't think I'm currently at a time in my life where I could believe

Hm, still need to see that movie.

It's interesting what you got out of the movie, I think you're on to something because, as important as Jesus dying in our place for our sins was, I think mainstream American Christianity does tend to overlook the other aspects of  the crucifixion.  One thing that affects me very deeply is the idea of Jesus' suffering as the answer to all human suffering - consider Job (don't know if you're familiar with the book of Job but the plot in a nutshell is that this prosperous guy who is upright and righteous and serves God gets everything that he has taken away from him; then the rest of the book is a poetic dialog where he's trying to make the case to God that God has been treating him unfairly); so sometimes when I think of the crucifixion I think of Job's spirit looking on as the very Son of God suffers and dies a humiliating death, and Job finally has his answer and can't do anything but bow and worship.

I respect your decision not to believe, but if you are interested in learning more about Christianity I would recommend this blog as a good read; there's a lot of diverse perspectives from across the Christian religion represented there and a very strong opposition to some of the worst things that go on in American Christianity nowadays.


Edited by Ambient Hurricanes - September 01 2013 at 19:02

smartpatrol wrote: I don't choose not to believe, I just don't, at least for now

Yes sorry, that wasn't a good way to put it especially based on what you said in your post.  I understand what you're saying.

Epignosis wrote: Jacob, I cannot find the book I read about the sheep and goats in.  I know it will turn up eventually.  When it does, I'll revisit the subject. I made what I felt was an interesting observation regarding the crucifixion and resurrection yesterday.  Before I go into though, I'll just say that I thought The Passion of the Christ was a good (if exhausting) film to watch, even if it still reflects Western values rather than an Ancient Near Eastern mindset.  The worst element of the crucifixion for Mediterranean people would have been the shame, not the pain.  Note that the Bible mentions little or nothing regarding the pain- it emphasizes the shame of the degradation ritual (Hebrews 12:2, for instance).  Crucified persons had no way of defending their honor except through sheer andeia ("manliness"), such as by not crying out, but still, this loss of honor was most excruciating to the ancient Mediterranean man. The connection I made yesterday was that the resurrection of Jesus was not in and of itself significant.  Ancient Jews looked forward to the eventual resurrection.  In John 11, for instance, Martha tells Jesus, "“I know [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."  The ancient rabbinical teaching, however, was that men would die and their flesh would rot to atone for their sins.  That indicates the significance of families performing a second burial, gathering the bones of the deceased and placing them in an ossuary to await the resurrection. Hence, it was not the resurrection of Christ that was astonishing- it was the timing (kairos).  That Jesus had come back before the ritualistic onset of decomposition was a proclamation that there was no corruption in the Word made flesh, and therefore, there was no reason for the flesh to decay.

I'd advise to be careful in saying that Jesus' resurrection in and of itself was not significant, because not all Jews believed in the resurrection, and the Gentiles certainly didn't. I agree with your conclusions, though. God is not just going to throw away the body on the last day.

It's been a while since I've participated on this forum at all - I've found myself less and less enthusiastic about arguing over music, then less and less enthusiastic about arguing over politics, and more and more focused on "heart issues".  I have a love for theology I've never had before!  So I have put a lot of work into a document that ended up being 80 pages long (and this was only because I wanted to - imagine that...I used to hate doing reports in school), and split that into sections which I've posted on my blog (note: the entire thing is split into 19 parts, and I've only "published" 17 so far).  So I wanted to share this on here for anyone who cares:
Checkmate For Hell

dr wu23 wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: It's been a while since I've participated on this forum at all - I've found myself less and less enthusiastic about arguing over music, then less and less enthusiastic about arguing over politics, and more and more focused on "heart issues".  I have a love for theology I've never had before!  So I have put a lot of work into a document that ended up being 80 pages long (and this was only because I wanted to - imagine that...I used to hate doing reports in school), and split that into sections which I've posted on my blog (note: the entire thing is split into 19 parts, and I've only "published" 17 so far).  So I wanted to share this on here for anyone who cares: Checkmate For Hell Hello dt, I read your first part and found it very interesting. I attended a Unitarian church for 10 years until they folded in my area and I have always been agnostic with a leaning towards eastern philosophy and spirituality. Read up on those ideas for many years and even practiced some Vipassana and Zen sitting for several years. I see things in a similar manner in that All is connected and no one is excluded whether they kneel or not to a 'god or God'. I'll try to read your other parts when I get time.   btw....I haven't posted here often because it seemed that the 'Christians' here ignored new posters, myself included,  and ideas that didn't align with their beliefs. Just saying.

Thank you for reading!  I have 19 parts in this series, as I said.  The last 2 are sitting in draft mode, and I've been publishing one a day.  Once that is done with, I wrote a short story to illustrate what I'm trying to get at in this series, and I also have written a short post showing an alternate logical route to "checkmate".  THEN, I have something you might be interested in which I will publish - a post exploring the idea of "All" or "Oneness" or "Christ-mind", or whatever you'd like to call it.  I wanted to post this after everything else, because you have to cut through the crap of people's bad logic before they'd be ready for such ideas, I think.  Otherwise it just sounds like nonsense to them.

dr wu23 wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: dr wu23 wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: It's been a while since I've participated on this forum at all - I've found myself less and less enthusiastic about arguing over music, then less and less enthusiastic about arguing over politics, and more and more focused on "heart issues".  I have a love for theology I've never had before!  So I have put a lot of work into a document that ended up being 80 pages long (and this was only because I wanted to - imagine that...I used to hate doing reports in school), and split that into sections which I've posted on my blog (note: the entire thing is split into 19 parts, and I've only "published" 17 so far).  So I wanted to share this on here for anyone who cares: Checkmate For Hell Hello dt, I read your first part and found it very interesting. I attended a Unitarian church for 10 years until they folded in my area and I have always been agnostic with a leaning towards eastern philosophy and spirituality. Read up on those ideas for many years and even practiced some Vipassana and Zen sitting for several years. I see things in a similar manner in that All is connected and no one is excluded whether they kneel or not to a 'god or God'. I'll try to read your other parts when I get time.   btw....I haven't posted here often because it seemed that the 'Christians' here ignored new posters, myself included,  and ideas that didn't align with their beliefs. Just saying. Thank you for reading!  I have 19 parts in this series, as I said.  The last 2 are sitting in draft mode, and I've been publishing one a day.  Once that is done with, I wrote a short story to illustrate what I'm trying to get at in this series, and I also have written a short post showing an alternate logical route to "checkmate".  THEN, I have something you might be interested in which I will publish - a post exploring the idea of "All" or "Oneness" or "Christ-mind", or whatever you'd like to call it.  I wanted to post this after everything else, because you have to cut through the crap of people's bad logic before they'd be ready for such ideas, I think.  Otherwise it just sounds like nonsense to them.   I think  the basic ideas you present ,at least in what I read so far, are well known by those who have studied theology in relation to western society . And the idea of Oneness or Christmind is a well known concept with those who have read eastern ideas and has been postulated for over 3000 years originally stemming from Hindu traditions and then Buddhist traditions. It's also present in Taoism. Nothing nonsensical about it and imho makes far more sense on multiple levels than traditional Christian ideology and doctrine. One has to throw out/reject many basic ideas and ignore uncomfortable questions if one accepts mainstream Christian beliefs. But then an atheist would say the same thing about all religious ideology.

That's what's so crazy!  People over here in America act like the things I'm talking about are insane - like NO ONE believes them, and I'm a crazy loon!  When I first started thinking like this, I had this sort of "dare I even think?" kind of question hanging over my head.  But I am a rebel, and I will challenge anything that doesn't make sense to me, so I pressed on.  But it kind of scares me that so many people who are trapped in these oppressive views are so afraid to even challenge them!