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CPicard 
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Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
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 Posted: September 13 2013 at 15:45 |
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: September 13 2013 at 17:31 |
 progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ me too. Prog Metal is a subgenre of Metal, they are the same genre of music. |
You have a point here and it's a valid one at that, but to my ears I feel that Prog metal and metal sound so vastly different whereby I personally feel those to types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so i would list them as separate from one another. But, I do see your point and can understand how a lot of people would agree with you, but I don't here....for once.  |
That's okay - you're allowed to be wrong. No big deal, after all these years I've got use to conversing with wrong people and it doesn't affect me as much as it used to; I have learnt to take a deep breath and stop worrying about whether they'll be wrong again and whether that will have a detrimental effect on their personal outlook and well being; I just have to accept that some people sometimes are wrong, (and that does not always result in a situation where those people are wrong more often than they are right), and just move on; well, it's not like the end of the world or anything to major and it's not going to have me ponder whether power metal sounds so vastly different to black metal whereby I personally feel those two types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so it's not like I would have to list them as separate from one another or anything as wrong as that or nothing...for once. 
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
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Posted: September 14 2013 at 03:02 |
Dean wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ me too. Prog Metal is a subgenre of Metal, they are the same genre of music. |
You have a point here and it's a valid one at that, but to my ears I feel that Prog metal and metal sound so vastly different whereby I personally feel those to types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so i would list them as separate from one another. But, I do see your point and can understand how a lot of people would agree with you, but I don't here....for once. |
That's okay - you're allowed to be wrong. No big deal, after all these years I've got use to conversing with wrong people and it doesn't affect me as much as it used to; I have learnt to take a deep breath and stop worrying about whether they'll be wrong again and whether that will have a detrimental effect on their personal outlook and well being; I just have to accept that some people sometimes are wrong, (and that does not always result in a situation where those people are wrong more often than they are right), and just move on; well, it's not like the end of the world or anything to major and it's not going to have me ponder whether power metal sounds so vastly different to black metal whereby I personally feel those two types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so it's not like I would have to list them as separate from one another or anything as wrong as that or nothing...for once. |
But I always love when I'm wrong how you sarcastically rub my nose in it. I actually rather enjoy it and in this case I am wrong once again because I've thought more about this discussion and taking into account what you've said on the subject of music classification. It kind of dawned on me whereby when I spun the classic Fates Warning album 'Awaken The Guardian' when listening to the opening track 'Valley Of The Dolls' the main Guiatar riff performed by Matheos, to me, sounded quite a bit like Black Sabbath's Children Of The Grave. So, it got me thinking of course whereby (to use a simple analogy) Fates Warning and Black Sabbath are like apples and Oranges, but nontheless they are both still fruit meaning Metal. In any case, I get what you are saying and yeah logically speaking you are right, but for me it seems like kind of a cop out to file anything that is played with an edge using a guitar, drums and a bass should simply be filed under 'Metal' in general. Metal has its subgenres like Glam, power, industrail, thrash, black, speed, grunge and death metal.
Prog Metal has tech extreme, post and experimental prog metal. So, my beef is that all the sub genres of Prog metal get thrown in under metal like one big melting pot. It's strange. I think it should be divided, but then again metal is metal just how fruit is fruit. I guess this is an issue that is overly simple and I'm just over thinking it, but something feels not right.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: September 14 2013 at 05:20 |
progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ me too. Prog Metal is a subgenre of Metal, they are the same genre of music. |
You have a point here and it's a valid one at that, but to my ears I feel that Prog metal and metal sound so vastly different whereby I personally feel those to types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so i would list them as separate from one another. But, I do see your point and can understand how a lot of people would agree with you, but I don't here....for once. |
That's okay - you're allowed to be wrong. No big deal, after all these years I've got use to conversing with wrong people and it doesn't affect me as much as it used to; I have learnt to take a deep breath and stop worrying about whether they'll be wrong again and whether that will have a detrimental effect on their personal outlook and well being; I just have to accept that some people sometimes are wrong, (and that does not always result in a situation where those people are wrong more often than they are right), and just move on; well, it's not like the end of the world or anything to major and it's not going to have me ponder whether power metal sounds so vastly different to black metal whereby I personally feel those two types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so it's not like I would have to list them as separate from one another or anything as wrong as that or nothing...for once. |
But I always love when I'm wrong how you sarcastically rub my nose in it. I actually rather enjoy it and in this case I am wrong once again because I've thought more about this discussion and taking into account what you've said on the subject of music classification. It kind of dawned on me whereby when I spun the classic Fates Warning album 'Awaken The Guardian' when listening to the opening track 'Valley Of The Dolls' the main Guiatar riff performed by Matheos, to me, sounded quite a bit like Black Sabbath's Children Of The Grave. So, it got me thinking of course whereby (to use a simple analogy) Fates Warning and Black Sabbath are like apples and Oranges, but nontheless they are both still fruit meaning Metal. In any case, I get what you are saying and yeah logically speaking you are right, but for me it seems like kind of a cop out to file anything that is played with an edge using a guitar, drums and a bass should simply be filed under 'Metal' in general. Metal has its subgenres like Glam, power, industrail, thrash, black, speed, grunge and death metal.
Prog Metal has tech extreme, post and experimental prog metal. So, my beef is that all the sub genres of Prog metal get thrown in under metal like one big melting pot. It's strange. I think it should be divided, but then again metal is metal just how fruit is fruit. I guess this is an issue that is overly simple and I'm just over thinking it, but something feels not right.
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You're still allowed to be wrong. I prefer to group metal into those I like and those I don't, but I still call them all Metal. Just as I'll still call The Ramones and Yes rock bands even though stylistically they are leagues a part, I don't see how anyone can call this a cop-out since the former is Punk Rock and the latter is Prog Rock so the chances of someone accidentally assuming that Tales From Topographic Oceans was recorded by The Ramones are pretty remote.
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 4596
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 01:02 |
Dean wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ me too. Prog Metal is a subgenre of Metal, they are the same genre of music. |
You have a point here and it's a valid one at that, but to my ears I feel that Prog metal and metal sound so vastly different whereby I personally feel those to types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so i would list them as separate from one another. But, I do see your point and can understand how a lot of people would agree with you, but I don't here....for once. |
That's okay - you're allowed to be wrong. No big deal, after all these years I've got use to conversing with wrong people and it doesn't affect me as much as it used to; I have learnt to take a deep breath and stop worrying about whether they'll be wrong again and whether that will have a detrimental effect on their personal outlook and well being; I just have to accept that some people sometimes are wrong, (and that does not always result in a situation where those people are wrong more often than they are right), and just move on; well, it's not like the end of the world or anything to major and it's not going to have me ponder whether power metal sounds so vastly different to black metal whereby I personally feel those two types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so it's not like I would have to list them as separate from one another or anything as wrong as that or nothing...for once. |
But I always love when I'm wrong how you sarcastically rub my nose in it. I actually rather enjoy it and in this case I am wrong once again because I've thought more about this discussion and taking into account what you've said on the subject of music classification. It kind of dawned on me whereby when I spun the classic Fates Warning album 'Awaken The Guardian' when listening to the opening track 'Valley Of The Dolls' the main Guiatar riff performed by Matheos, to me, sounded quite a bit like Black Sabbath's Children Of The Grave. So, it got me thinking of course whereby (to use a simple analogy) Fates Warning and Black Sabbath are like apples and Oranges, but nontheless they are both still fruit meaning Metal. In any case, I get what you are saying and yeah logically speaking you are right, but for me it seems like kind of a cop out to file anything that is played with an edge using a guitar, drums and a bass should simply be filed under 'Metal' in general. Metal has its subgenres like Glam, power, industrail, thrash, black, speed, grunge and death metal.
Prog Metal has tech extreme, post and experimental prog metal. So, my beef is that all the sub genres of Prog metal get thrown in under metal like one big melting pot. It's strange. I think it should be divided, but then again metal is metal just how fruit is fruit. I guess this is an issue that is overly simple and I'm just over thinking it, but something feels not right.
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You're still allowed to be wrong. I prefer to group metal into those I like and those I don't, but I still call them all Metal. Just as I'll still call The Ramones and Yes rock bands even though stylistically they are leagues a part, I don't see how anyone can call this a cop-out since the former is Punk Rock and the latter is Prog Rock so the chances of someone accidentally assuming that Tales From Topographic Oceans was recorded by The Ramones are pretty remote. |
I think progbethyname makes a great point and to call him "wrong" implies that there is an absolute truth that can be proven with respect to genre and sub genre definition and their relationship. I believe we're dealing with a subjective question of opinion...to one person "prog metal" equals "metal", to another "Dream Theater" does not equal "Motorhead". While not knowledgeable in the genre of "prog metal" myself, I am a big fan of "doom metal" and believe the same litmus test applies. Does "doom metal" = "metal"? Some would clearly say so. Does "My Dying Bride" = "Motley Crue"? Certainly not, and to say they do because both have a guitar player running through a Marshall stack is too easy. Further, the point could be argued that all these genres from prog to metal to doom to prog-metal are all just variations of "rock" anyway so what's the point of arguing any sub genre?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 01:47 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
Dean wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ me too. Prog Metal is a subgenre of Metal, they are the same genre of music. |
You have a point here and it's a valid one at that, but to my ears I feel that Prog metal and metal sound so vastly different whereby I personally feel those to types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so i would list them as separate from one another. But, I do see your point and can understand how a lot of people would agree with you, but I don't here....for once. |
That's okay - you're allowed to be wrong. No big deal, after all these years I've got use to conversing with wrong people and it doesn't affect me as much as it used to; I have learnt to take a deep breath and stop worrying about whether they'll be wrong again and whether that will have a detrimental effect on their personal outlook and well being; I just have to accept that some people sometimes are wrong, (and that does not always result in a situation where those people are wrong more often than they are right), and just move on; well, it's not like the end of the world or anything to major and it's not going to have me ponder whether power metal sounds so vastly different to black metal whereby I personally feel those two types of music don't really sound very similar to me at all, so it's not like I would have to list them as separate from one another or anything as wrong as that or nothing...for once. |
But I always love when I'm wrong how you sarcastically rub my nose in it. I actually rather enjoy it and in this case I am wrong once again because I've thought more about this discussion and taking into account what you've said on the subject of music classification. It kind of dawned on me whereby when I spun the classic Fates Warning album 'Awaken The Guardian' when listening to the opening track 'Valley Of The Dolls' the main Guiatar riff performed by Matheos, to me, sounded quite a bit like Black Sabbath's Children Of The Grave. So, it got me thinking of course whereby (to use a simple analogy) Fates Warning and Black Sabbath are like apples and Oranges, but nontheless they are both still fruit meaning Metal. In any case, I get what you are saying and yeah logically speaking you are right, but for me it seems like kind of a cop out to file anything that is played with an edge using a guitar, drums and a bass should simply be filed under 'Metal' in general. Metal has its subgenres like Glam, power, industrail, thrash, black, speed, grunge and death metal.
Prog Metal has tech extreme, post and experimental prog metal. So, my beef is that all the sub genres of Prog metal get thrown in under metal like one big melting pot. It's strange. I think it should be divided, but then again metal is metal just how fruit is fruit. I guess this is an issue that is overly simple and I'm just over thinking it, but something feels not right.
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You're still allowed to be wrong. I prefer to group metal into those I like and those I don't, but I still call them all Metal. Just as I'll still call The Ramones and Yes rock bands even though stylistically they are leagues a part, I don't see how anyone can call this a cop-out since the former is Punk Rock and the latter is Prog Rock so the chances of someone accidentally assuming that Tales From Topographic Oceans was recorded by The Ramones are pretty remote. |
I think progbethyname makes a great point and to call him "wrong" implies that there is an absolute truth that can be proven with respect to genre and sub genre definition and their relationship. I believe we're dealing with a subjective question of opinion...to one person "prog metal" equals "metal", to another "Dream Theater" does not equal "Motorhead". While not knowledgeable in the genre of "prog metal" myself, I am a big fan of "doom metal" and believe the same litmus test applies. Does "doom metal" = "metal"? Some would clearly say so. Does "My Dying Bride" = "Motley Crue"? Certainly not, and to say they do because both have a guitar player running through a Marshall stack is too easy. Further, the point could be argued that all these genres from prog to metal to doom to prog-metal are all just variations of "rock" anyway so what's the point of arguing any sub genre? |
You're allowed to be wrong too. Metal is the genre, doom metal, Prog metal, NWOBHM, Trad Heavy Metal, thrash, speed, Industrial, gothic, black, battle, symphonic, power, etc, etc, are sub-genres within it. To say that Prog metal or doom metal is not metal because the don't sound like Mötley Crüe or Motörhead is simply, objectively, factually, and musicologicaly wrong. Sorry there is no other word for it but "wrong".
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 4596
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 03:00 |
Dean wrote:
You're allowed to be wrong too. Metal is the genre, doom metal, Prog metal, NWOBHM, Trad Heavy Metal, thrash, speed, Industrial, gothic, black, battle, symphonic, power, etc, etc, are sub-genres within it. To say that Prog metal or doom metal is not metal because the don't sound like Mötley Crüe or Motörhead is simply, objectively, factually, and musicologicaly wrong. Sorry there is no other word for it but "wrong". |
You're allowed to be wrong as well. Posting Sam Dunn's chart is hardly indisputable evidence as far as I'm concerned and I stand by my opinion. This is agree to disagree time.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 04:05 |
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Sam Dunn's chart is certainly not 'evidence' but I guess the point remains that two bands do not have to sound a whole lot like each other just to slot in the same genre? Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin are rock bands and they probably sound more unlike each other than MDB and Motley Crue. Metal has evolved in several different directions, so there is no one point of reference for what is metal, there is no one archetypal metal bands. Believing there is probably reveals more about the listener's views than about the metal genre. Even if a so called tr00 metalhead finds DT incredibly gay compared to Motorhead, that has no bearing on whether or not they are metal because that's just a like/dislike, not an observation on their musical characteristics.
Edited by rogerthat - September 15 2013 at 04:06
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Dean
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 04:16 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
You're allowed to be wrong as well. Posting Sam Dunn's chart is hardly indisputable evidence as far as I'm concerned and I stand by my opinion. This is agree to disagree time. |
I'm male, so to half the population I'm always wrong. People thinking I am wrong is the reason I get into these discussions, so of course I am allowed to be wrong, the onus on proving that to be the case falls on other people, simply disagreeing proves nothing.
The chart isn't evidence it is mere illustration - I could have picked one of dozens of similar charts, again merely as illustration, just as you picked My Dying Bride and Mötley Crüe as illustrations not evidence. We could do a survey of all the metal family trees out there and analyse them to see if Doom Metal and Progressive Metal appeared as a subgenres of the metal genre by consensus of those chart compilers, that would be closer to what I would regard as evidence.
If you can demonstrate to me (using Nicholas's own example) that apples and oranges are not fruit, then I will think about considering the logic of the argument as being partway to possibly not being wrong. Your argument appears to be based upon the premise that oranges are the only fruit and apples are a different classification of vegetable seed production. Now, if he'd chosen berries instead of fruit it would have been a different story: grapes, blueberries, peppers, oranges, pumpkins and bananas are all berries whereas strawberries and apples are not. The botanical reasons why apples and strawberries (and figs) are fruits but not berries is based upon the how and where the fleshy part of the fruit is formed and that is the common defining characteristic of strawberries, apples and figs (botanically they are called accessory fruit). {good grief Penfold, it comes to something when I have to create my own straw[berry]man argument in an attempt prove myself wrong}.
If you believe that Black Sabbath, Mötley Crüe and Motörhead are "true" Metal then all the subgenres of Metal are separate genres not subgenres, but that ignores the defining common characteristic of those subgenres - which is that they are Metal (Prog Metal without the Metal is just Prog Rock is it not? Symphonic Metal without Metal is just Symphonic Rock, Folk Metal without Metal is just Folk, Thrash Metal without Metal is just Punk Rock, etc. etc.).
Is this a disagreeing or just contradicting? Anyway, I never agree to disagree.
Edited by Dean - September 15 2013 at 05:08
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 12:12 |
Dean wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
You're allowed to be wrong as well. Posting Sam Dunn's chart is hardly indisputable evidence as far as I'm concerned and I stand by my opinion. This is agree to disagree time. |
I'm male, so to half the population I'm always wrong. People thinking I am wrong is the reason I get into these discussions, so of course I am allowed to be wrong, the onus on proving that to be the case falls on other people, simply disagreeing proves nothing. The chart isn't evidence it is mere illustration - I could have picked one of dozens of similar charts, again merely as illustration, just as you picked My Dying Bride and Mötley Crüe as illustrations not evidence. We could do a survey of all the metal family trees out there and analyse them to see if Doom Metal and Progressive Metal appeared as a subgenres of the metal genre by consensus of those chart compilers, that would be closer to what I would regard as evidence. If you can demonstrate to me (using Nicholas's own example) that apples and oranges are not fruit, then I will think about considering the logic of the argument as being partway to possibly not being wrong. Your argument appears to be based upon the premise that oranges are the only fruit and apples are a different classification of vegetable seed production. Now, if he'd chosen berries instead of fruit it would have been a different story: grapes, blueberries, peppers, oranges, pumpkins and bananas are all berries whereas strawberries and apples are not. The botanical reasons why apples and strawberries (and figs) are fruits but not berries is based upon the how and where the fleshy part of the fruit is formed and that is the common defining characteristic of strawberries, apples and figs (botanically they are called accessory fruit). {good grief Penfold, it comes to something when I have to create my own straw[berry]man argument in an attempt prove myself wrong}. If you believe that Black Sabbath, Mötley Crüe and Motörhead are "true" Metal then all the subgenres of Metal are separate genres not subgenres, but that ignores the defining common characteristic of those subgenres - which is that they are Metal (Prog Metal without the Metal is just Prog Rock is it not? Symphonic Metal without Metal is just Symphonic Rock, Folk Metal without Metal is just Folk, Thrash Metal without Metal is just Punk Rock, etc. etc.). Is this a disagreeing or just contradicting? Anyway, I never agree to disagree. |
I rather enjoyed your fruit and vegetable illustration - and I learned a few things about botany - but let me illustrate my opinion with another family of the food kingdom. When I was a kid, I discovered I was allergic to nuts. My throat would swell up and I had trouble breathing (same as today). I was told to avoid nuts at all cost, so I did. However, being a kid, occasionally breaking the rules was a prerequisite, so I found myself devouring an Almond Joy. Allergic reaction? None. Then I tried a Payday bar loaded with peanuts. Allergic reaction? None. Then I tried a Sees Candy walnut bar. Allergic reaction? You betcha! When my handlers discovered I was experimenting with nut filled candies they freaked so I was put back on the wagon.
Fast forward 20 years. Almond Joy, Payday, Heath Bar, Baby Ruth all were occasional treats and still no allergic reaction. How in the world can you be allergic to nuts and able to eat almonds and peanuts? A little research and the answer made perfect sense. Almonds are not nuts, they are a member of the peach family. Peanuts are not nuts, they are legumes (beans).
Metal = nuts. Doom metal = almonds. Prog metal = peanuts. Are almonds a subgenre of nuts? No, but 99% of the population believes they are. Does that make it true? No. Does someone with a nut allergy have an allergic reaction to almonds just because they "think" they're eating a nut? No. What about peanuts? Surely something with the word "nut" in it's name must be a member of the nut family? If "prog-metal" must be a form of metal simply by virtue of it's name, then aren't "pea-nuts" surely nuts? No. Do musical subgenres really have anything to do with fruits, vegetables, or nuts? You say tomayto I say tomahto.
Just because those around me (doctors, parents, etc) were convinced that almonds and peanuts were dangerous and would trigger my allergic response, my direct experience told me otherwise. Just because others are convinced that prog metal/doom metal/etc = metal, my direct experience tells me otherwise. If that is not the definition of a subjective opinion where different views from my own aren't "wrong" but simply "different", I don't know what is.
Edited by The.Crimson.King - September 15 2013 at 12:43
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progbethyname
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 13:08 |
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^^^ I guess a few of us have watched Sam Dun's Metal Evolution. Lol
When I watched that 10 part series, Dunn went through a variety of sub-genres and with his background in anthropology ended up listing Prog-Metal as its own separate genre, but still just filing under metal. Did this make sense to me? Sure. Did I agree with it? No. No I did not. Ok. I'll use another insane analogy.
Human beings and animals, reptiles and mammals all carry similar things that make them up in general...heart, lungs, blood etc but outside are they the same? No. Certainly not, but you argue that humans, reptiles and other animals all come from or are a part of the same 'fix' which in this case would be 'metal.'
So, what we have are all these degrees of difference and wouldn't it be important to be a able classify and separate things to make it less confusing for all of us?
Wait...I'll try to make things easier to understand. If you had a record store and a good one at that, would you file 'MY Dying Bride' in the same category as 'motely Crüe'? Come on. No way you would because both those bands carry a way different sound. Actually, the other day i was in a record store and found 'Pink Floyd' filed under the pop/rock section. Totally wrong classification, and it bothered me because there is no attention to detail or sophistication for correct genre filing. It's insulting and insulting to music in general. It's like going into a book store and just filing all the books under 'fiction' in alphabetical order. My point is I think it shows laziness to through everything under metal and just leave it as point blank as that. Than again, sometimes people (namely in the media) have to classify things more simply for things they don't understand. Actually in Sam's Chart, I see that NIN are once again filed under Industrail and that to me is a giant joke, but then again you have to 'classify' things in order to convince yourself you have an understanding of what your listening to. The media does this all the time and this 'lack of education' leads to a lot of pitfalls for how we, as humans, classify the various types of music for our own understanding.
I will say one more thing. Using these broad, generic terms like 'Metal' gets you into trouble where by Mis representation
Of the music itself is largely in effect. I will give an example and a serious one at that.
Many people have asked me in my lifetime 'hey Nick, what kind of music do you listen to and love?'
If I say broadly, 'Metal' you know what happens 90% of the time people say to me 'oh you like that yelling and screaming bullsh*t?? You don't seem like the type?' lol I can't tell you how many times I've shaken my head in frustration because obviously metal is not just death growls and really fast guitar playing. Now a days, when someone asks me that same question I say ' well. I listen to a lot of Progressive Metal.' now this raises an eyebrow ;) The person will usually ask me ' well, what the hell is that?' then of course i have a fun time explaining everything cause it's different classification/genre of music.
You see, if we classify things properly we through away or at least limit stereo types or other common generalities that are often used to view and describe music. If someone asked me, 'hey nick, what's your favorite band these days' I may say ' well I love Saviour Machine.' ' oh cool Nick, what are they?' Do you think I'm gonna say to this person, ' eh they are a metal band.' No way! It doesn't make sense and it's a mis representation for the music I like. To illustrate and be fair to my point, Saviour Machine are Dark-Gothic Progressive Metal. Certainly, correctly describing the music you listen to will lead to a more proper understanding and education for others.
Overall, a lot of what DEAN said is correct from a more concise and logical standpoint figuratively speaking, but over simplication leads to misrepresentation. Let's give the art of music the respect and character it deserves just like how books are treated. 'Metal' and 'Prog Metal' should be in a separate class of music period.
I don't believe going into a record store and finding 'Anathema' next to Anthrax in the metal section is right and sadly I've seen it before and it made me want to scream almost because it just shows so much laziness and lack of respect for music's diverse character in general.
I obviously would love to hear more from all of you on this subject, and I do apologize for the long winded response to this matter. Lol
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Dean
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 15:12 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
Dean wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
You're allowed to be wrong as well. Posting Sam Dunn's chart is hardly indisputable evidence as far as I'm concerned and I stand by my opinion. This is agree to disagree time. |
I'm male, so to half the population I'm always wrong. People thinking I am wrong is the reason I get into these discussions, so of course I am allowed to be wrong, the onus on proving that to be the case falls on other people, simply disagreeing proves nothing.
The chart isn't evidence it is mere illustration - I could have picked one of dozens of similar charts, again merely as illustration, just as you picked My Dying Bride and Mötley Crüe as illustrations not evidence. We could do a survey of all the metal family trees out there and analyse them to see if Doom Metal and Progressive Metal appeared as a subgenres of the metal genre by consensus of those chart compilers, that would be closer to what I would regard as evidence.
If you can demonstrate to me (using Nicholas's own example) that apples and oranges are not fruit, then I will think about considering the logic of the argument as being partway to possibly not being wrong. Your argument appears to be based upon the premise that oranges are the only fruit and apples are a different classification of vegetable seed production. Now, if he'd chosen berries instead of fruit it would have been a different story: grapes, blueberries, peppers, oranges, pumpkins and bananas are all berries whereas strawberries and apples are not. The botanical reasons why apples and strawberries (and figs) are fruits but not berries is based upon the how and where the fleshy part of the fruit is formed and that is the common defining characteristic of strawberries, apples and figs (botanically they are called accessory fruit). {good grief Penfold, it comes to something when I have to create my own straw[berry]man argument in an attempt prove myself wrong}.
If you believe that Black Sabbath, Mötley Crüe and Motörhead are "true" Metal then all the subgenres of Metal are separate genres not subgenres, but that ignores the defining common characteristic of those subgenres - which is that they are Metal (Prog Metal without the Metal is just Prog Rock is it not? Symphonic Metal without Metal is just Symphonic Rock, Folk Metal without Metal is just Folk, Thrash Metal without Metal is just Punk Rock, etc. etc.).
Is this a disagreeing or just contradicting? Anyway, I never agree to disagree. |
I rather enjoyed your fruit and vegetable illustration - and I learned a few things about botany - but let me illustrate my opinion with another family of the food kingdom. When I was a kid, I discovered I was allergic to nuts. My throat would swell up and I had trouble breathing (same as today). I was told to avoid nuts at all cost, so I did. However, being a kid, occasionally breaking the rules was a prerequisite, so I found myself devouring an Almond Joy. Allergic reaction? None. Then I tried a Payday bar loaded with peanuts. Allergic reaction? None. Then I tried a Sees Candy walnut bar. Allergic reaction? You betcha! When my handlers discovered I was experimenting with nut filled candies they freaked so I was put back on the wagon.
Fast forward 20 years. Almond Joy, Payday, Heath Bar, Baby Ruth all were occasional treats and still no allergic reaction. How in the world can you be allergic to nuts and able to eat almonds and peanuts? A little research and the answer made perfect sense. Almonds are not nuts, they are a member of the peach family. Peanuts are not nuts, they are legumes (beans).
Metal = nuts. Doom metal = almonds. Prog metal = peanuts. Are almonds a subgenre of nuts? No, but 99% of the population believes they are. Does that make it true? No. Does someone with a nut allergy have an allergic reaction to almonds just because they "think" they're eating a nut? No. What about peanuts? Surely something with the word "nut" in it's name must be a member of the nut family? If "prog-metal" must be a form of metal simply by virtue of it's name, then aren't "pea-nuts" surely nuts? No. Do musical subgenres really have anything to do with fruits, vegetables, or nuts? You say tomayto I say tomahto.
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Nice. I was half-expecting the nut analogy, it's pleasing to see it so quickly (truth, I was considering using almonds and peanuts instead of berries in the fruit example as they are both fruits but felt berry to be more appropriate). Prog metal is not metal simply by virtue of its name, it's called Prog Metal because it is Metal - the plant equivalent to Metal in your analogy is "seeds" not "nuts" - almonds, peanuts and macadamia are all seeds. Musical subgenres have nothing to do with fruits, vegetable or nuts, it wasn't my analogy. None of that explains how Prog Metal is not Metal.
(I think most people know that peanuts are legumes by now and the proliferation of nut-allergies has educated many to know that almonds are not true nuts - however there is a risk of cross-contamination when all three are handled in the same processing plant).
I actually say tomahto with the long "a" sound too, then I'm British - what's your excuse?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 16:15 |
progbethyname wrote:
^^^ I guess a few of us have watched Sam Dun's Metal Evolution. Lol |
Nope. never watched, not interested, most of these types of programme are one man's opinion and they're seldom factual. I picked the geneology chart at random from Google Image search - any one of them would have served my purposes just as well.
progbethyname wrote:
When I watched that 10 part series, Dunn went through a variety of sub-genres and with his background in anthropology ended up listing Prog-Metal as its own separate genre, but still just filing under metal. Did this make sense to me? Sure. Did I agree with it? No. No I did not. Ok. I'll use another insane analogy.
Human beings and animals, reptiles and mammals all carry similar things that make them up in general...heart, lungs, blood etc but outside are they the same? No. Certainly not, but you argue that humans, reptiles and other animals all come from or are a part of the same 'fix' which in this case would be 'metal.'
So, what we have are all these degrees of difference and wouldn't it be important to be a able classify and separate things to make it less confusing for all of us? |
Analogies should only be used to illustrate a point and thus make it easier to understand, never to prove one. Producing a bad analogy to replace an adequate one is not making the point you are making any less wrong, especially as you are mixing taxonomic ranks in such a random fashion (humans are a species, mammals and reptiles are classes and animals are a kingdom) - in that taxonomy Sound is a Kingdom, Man-made Sound is a Phylum, Music is a Class, Popular Music is an Order, Rock Music is a Family, Metal is a Genus and Prog Metal a Species. There is no confusion here that needs to be simplified further. Prog Metal without the Metal element would be Prog Rock, the Prog Metal subgenre would disappear altogether - those bands that could be absorbed into Prog Rock would be, those that don't would be discarded.
progbethyname wrote:
Wait...I'll try to make things easier to understand. If you had a record store and a good one at that, would you file 'MY Dying Bride' in the same category as 'motely Crüe'? Come on. No way you would because both those bands carry a way different sound. Actually, the other day i was in a record store and found 'Pink Floyd' filed under the pop/rock section. Totally wrong classification, and it bothered me because there is no attention to detail or sophistication for correct genre filing. It's insulting and insulting to music in general. It's like going into a book store and just filing all the books under 'fiction' in alphabetical order. My point is I think it shows laziness to through everything under metal and just leave it as point blank as that. Than again, sometimes people (namely in the media) have to classify things more simply for things they don't understand. Actually in Sam's Chart, I see that NIN are once again filed under Industrail and that to me is a giant joke, but then again you have to 'classify' things in order to convince yourself you have an understanding of what your listening to. The media does this all the time and this 'lack of education' leads to a lot of pitfalls for how we, as humans, classify the various types of music for our own understanding. |
I'm happy to find a record store that has a Metal section at all. Hell, I'm happy to find a record store these days, I'd be effing delirious to find a record store with a My Dying Bride CD. The book shops here file fiction alphabetically by author name - what do you suggest? Colour? Size?
And of course NIИ are filed under "Industrial", you are rapidly losing me here as your classifications do not seem to agree with anything.
progbethyname wrote:
I will say one more thing. Using these broad, generic terms like 'Metal' gets you into trouble where by Mis representation
Of the music itself is largely in effect. I will give an example and a serious one at that.
Many people have asked me in my lifetime 'hey Nick, what kind of music do you listen to and love?'
If I say broadly, 'Metal' you know what happens 90% of the time people say to me 'oh you like that yelling and screaming bullsh*t?? You don't seem like the type?' lol I can't tell you how many times I've shaken my head in frustration because obviously metal is not just death growls and really fast guitar playing. Now a days, when someone asks me that same question I say ' well. I listen to a lot of Progressive Metal.' now this raises an eyebrow ;) The person will usually ask me ' well, what the hell is that?' then of course i have a fun time explaining everything cause it's different classification/genre of music.
You see, if we classify things properly we through away or at least limit stereo types or other common generalities that are often used to view and describe music. If someone asked me, 'hey nick, what's your favorite band these days' I may say ' well I love Saviour Machine.' ' oh cool Nick, what are they?' Do you think I'm gonna say to this person, ' eh they are a metal band.' No way! It doesn't make sense and it's a mis representation for the music I like. To illustrate and be fair to my point, Saviour Machine are Dark-Gothic Progressive Metal. Certainly, correctly describing the music you listen to will lead to a more proper understanding and education for others.
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So what you are actually objecting to is stereotyping by people who don't actually know anything... I don't see the logic in seperating out Prog Metal as something special just to save your embarrassment.
progbethyname wrote:
Overall, a lot of what DEAN said is correct from a more concise and logical standpoint figuratively speaking, but over simplication leads to misrepresentation. Let's give the art of music the respect and character it deserves just like how books are treated. 'Metal' and 'Prog Metal' should be in a separate class of music period. |
I'm still not getting this "books" analogy (how are books treated? What differentiates Thomas Pynchon from Jane Austen or Arthur Conan Doyle?) or why calling Prog Metal "metal" is a disparaging term - that's more than a little demeaning to the whole Metal genre if you ask me and smacks of elitism.
progbethyname wrote:
I don't believe going into a record store and finding 'Anathema' next to Anthrax in the metal section is right and sadly I've seen it before and it made me want to scream almost because it just shows so much laziness and lack of respect for music's diverse character in general. |
Anathema have changed styles and genres several times in the past twenty and are no longer a metal band per sey - when bands do that putting them in one category is always going to piss someone off. If Serenades, The Silent Enigma, Eternity, Alternative 4 and Judgement are not Metal then what the hell are they?
progbethyname wrote:
I obviously would love to hear more from all of you on this subject, and I do apologize for the long winded response to this matter. Lol |
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The.Crimson.King
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Joined: March 29 2013
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 16:34 |
I pronounce it Tormato.
Leaving nuts, fruits, vegetables, pits, seeds, and legumes behind, my core point in this discussion is simple. If someone wants to interpret metal = prog metal or metal != prog metal, it is not an equation that can be calculated or a hypothesis that can be proven. There is no absolute truth to compare this against. It is a subjective opinion formed by the individual listener and as such cannot inherently be right or wrong.
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Dean
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 16:57 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
I pronounce it Tormato.
Leaving nuts, fruits, vegetables, pits, seeds, and legumes behind, my core point in this discussion is simple. If someone wants to interpret metal = prog metal or metal != prog metal, it is not an equation that can be calculated or a hypothesis that can be proven. There is no absolute truth to compare this against. It is a subjective opinion formed by the individual listener and as such cannot inherently be right or wrong.
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It has the characteristics of Metal so that is objective not subjective. The underlying root characteristic is Metal, without that it would not be Prog Metal. It cannot be reduced any further than that. Absolute truth does not mean objective truth - an absolute truth is a truth that is not connected to anything else, in musicology and genre classification everything is connected. Now whether you want to put a particular band into one subgenre or a different subgenere is an informed subjective opinion - I say informed here because if you had zero knowledge of the characteristics of that subgenre you could not even be subjective - but the subgenre itself is objective.
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dr wu23
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Location: Indiana
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 19:29 |
Uh....does anyone recall the original thread topic...?
Oh,,that's right the fathers of prog metal. 
Well....Mr Dunn , based on his chart, claims it was one of these or all of them since it's the only line leading to the prog metal box.
Early Metal 66-71
Cream
Jimi Hendrix
Blue Cheer
Deep Purple
Led Zep
Mountain
The Stooges
Black Sabbath
Any thoughts on these bands-all or none- being 'the fathers of prog metal'..? Interestingly Sabbath , which was already pointed out, are not even mentioned on the PA page about prog metal.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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infocat
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 21:42 |
First, metal is metal.  Here's an observation not meant to prove any point. My local record store has both a Pop/Rock section and a Metal section. But they file "popular metal" under Pop/Rock. Pop/Rock
Metallica Megadeth Iron Maiden Scorpions Judas Priest Motley Crue Queensryche MetalSlayer Anthrax My Dying Bride (*) Katatonia Of course they also file some prog, not just prog metal, under metal as well. Pendragon in particular strikes me as amusing to be placed there.  (*) Yes, they do have MDB!
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Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.
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Luna
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Posted: September 15 2013 at 22:50 |
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RIP poll
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Dean
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Posted: September 16 2013 at 02:14 |
Luna wrote:
RIP poll |
The Poll died on Page 1, Post 2 - we're just giving it a viking funeral.
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Stool Man
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Posted: September 16 2013 at 10:55 |
Dean wrote:
Luna wrote:
RIP poll |
The Poll died on Page 1, Post 2 - we're just giving it a viking funeral.
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As the pollstarter, I agree. This makes it official.
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rotten hound of the burnie crew
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
The fathers of Prog Metal
