The Christian Thread

Hm. Well, I have a couple replies in mind to some of what you've said, but I think I'm going to rest on this for a few days to read and think. Will be back to discuss soon.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Darn, just realized I never finished reading that hell debate...must get to that. It's interesting that you bring up the sheep and goats parable; I don't think you can take judgement out of the picture (Jesus is rather obvious in its inclusion) whether or not you believe in an eternal Hell; I think that there's more to the parable than our works; as you pointed out, Geoff, obviously both the "sheep" and the "goats" will have done both good and bad things in their lives; I think the point of the parable is that God does not remember the sins of those who are in Christ; instead Christ's righteousness is credited to them, and God is also pleased with their good works in His service.  For those who deny Christ, on the other hand, only their sins are remembered; their good works don't count.  The parable actually reinforces that we are saved by God's grace and not by our works.

Actually, the whole point of that parable was to get the listeners to think seriously about how they treat people, I would argue.  But when people use it as a proof in eternal conscious torment, I must object.  And the strongest argument against it being a proof of eternal conscious torment is the fact that the word that is translated as "eternal" absolutely does not mean "eternal".  The word is "aion", which literally means "of the age", and some irresponsible translators have chosen to support their agenda by translating it as "eternal" whenever it was talking about "hell".  And the thing you have to remember when you see "hell" in the Bible is that it is actually translated from the words "sheol", "gehenna", "hades" and "tartarus".  Exploring what those four words are about and why they are talked about gets pretty interesting, but back to "aion" - if you look at this list of usages of the word "aion", you realize it's completely illogical to conclude that this word could ever be accurately translated as "eternal" or "forever".

EDIT: I should have added - I think the reason Jesus says that the goats go away to "age long" (not eternal, mind you) punishment, I think, is that when you harden your heart and refuse to empathize with people's suffering, you close yourself off to the true rewards of life, and you end up caught in this endless struggle for satisfaction where you chase after stuff that can never satisfy you and it's completely soul sucking.


Edited by dtguitarfan - August 03 2013 at 21:47

Epignosis wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Darn, just realized I never finished reading that hell debate...must get to that. It's interesting that you bring up the sheep and goats parable; I don't think you can take judgement out of the picture (Jesus is rather obvious in its inclusion) whether or not you believe in an eternal Hell; I think that there's more to the parable than our works; as you pointed out, Geoff, obviously both the "sheep" and the "goats" will have done both good and bad things in their lives; I think the point of the parable is that God does not remember the sins of those who are in Christ; instead Christ's righteousness is credited to them, and God is also pleased with their good works in His service.  For those who deny Christ, on the other hand, only their sins are remembered; their good works don't count.  The parable actually reinforces that we are saved by God's grace and not by our works. For that parable, it's most helpful to understand how ancient Mediterranean people viewed sheep and goats.  Those animals were not chosen at random.

What were they chosen for?

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Epignosis wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Darn, just realized I never finished reading that hell debate...must get to that. It's interesting that you bring up the sheep and goats parable; I don't think you can take judgement out of the picture (Jesus is rather obvious in its inclusion) whether or not you believe in an eternal Hell; I think that there's more to the parable than our works; as you pointed out, Geoff, obviously both the "sheep" and the "goats" will have done both good and bad things in their lives; I think the point of the parable is that God does not remember the sins of those who are in Christ; instead Christ's righteousness is credited to them, and God is also pleased with their good works in His service.  For those who deny Christ, on the other hand, only their sins are remembered; their good works don't count.  The parable actually reinforces that we are saved by God's grace and not by our works. For that parable, it's most helpful to understand how ancient Mediterranean people viewed sheep and goats.  Those animals were not chosen at random. What were they chosen for?

My wife and youngest son are sleeping in the room where my books are kept, and there is someone I would like to quote.

So perhaps in the morning I can elaborate.

Epignosis wrote: thellama73 wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Epignosis wrote: For that parable, it's most helpful to understand how ancient Mediterranean people viewed sheep and goats.  Those animals were not chosen at random. What were they chosen for? Lunch! You never cease to amuse (and edify) me.

I couldn't resist. I'll go now.

If you really knew that culture you would know the ancient civilized nations of the Mediterranean did not eat lunch.

Supper surely.

Supper's ready


Edited by Ambient Hurricanes - August 04 2013 at 15:02

I am pleased to see that I've derailed the thread into silliness.

timothy leary wrote: ^ the root of silliness

Silliness, the eighth Deadly Sin. Or ninth. Depending on your feelings toward chocolate.