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Ambient Hurricanes
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 09:41 |
jude111 wrote:
Have you guys seriously ever tried to read a real work of philosophy? Here's an excerpt from Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason." Try to read it with comprehension, and without falling asleep. (And perhaps you can also tell me how to apply it when dealing with global warming, the threat of global pandemics, Islamic fundamentalism, Greece's crashing economy, poverty in Detroit, the failing Euro, the rise of China and the competition among the ruling classes of the capitalist countries, etc.):
I
TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION
WE have already entitled dialectic in general a logic of illu-
sion. This does not mean a doctrine of probability; for prob-
ability is truth, known however on insufficient grounds, and
the knowledge of which, though thus imperfect, is not on that
account deceptive; and such doctrine, accordingly, is not to be
separated from the analytic part of logic. Still less justification
have we for regarding appearance and illusion as being identi-
cal. For truth or illusion is not in the object, in so far as it is
intuited, but in the judgment about it, in so far as it is thought.
It is therefore correct to say that the senses do not err -- not
because they always judge rightly but because they do not
judge at all. Truth and error, therefore, and consequently also
illusion as leading to error, are only to be found in the judg-
ment, i.e. only in the relation of the object to our understand-
ing. In any knowledge which completely accords with the laws
of understanding there is no error. In a representation of the
senses -- as containing no judgment whatsoever -- there is also
no error. No natural force can of itself deviate from its own
laws. Thus neither the understanding by itself (uninfluenced
by another cause), nor the senses by themselves, would fall
into error. The former would not, since, if it acts only accord-
ing to its own laws, the effect (the judgment) must necessarily
be in conformity with these laws; conformity with the laws
P 298
of the understanding is the formal element in all truth. In
the senses there is no judgment whatsoever, neither a true
nor a false judgment. Now since we have no source of know-
ledge besides these two, it follows that error is brought about
solely by the unobserved influence of sensibility on the under-
standing, through which it happens that the subjective grounds
of the judgment enter into union with the objective grounds
and make these latter deviate from their true function, -- just
as a body in motion would always of itself continue in a
straight line in the same direction, but if influenced by another
force acting in another direction starts off into curvilinear
motion. In order to distinguish the specific action of under-
standing from the force which is intermixed with it, it is neces-
sary to regard the erroneous judgment as the diagonal between
two forces -- forces which determine the judgment in different
directions that enclose, as it were, an angle -- and to resolve
this composite action into the simple actions of the under-
standing and of the sensibility. In the case of pure a priori
judgments this is a task which falls to be discharged by tran-
scendental reflection, through which, as we have already shown,
every representation is assigned its place in the corresponding
faculty of knowledge, and by which the influence of the one
upon the other is therefore likewise distinguished.
We are not here concerned with empirical (e.g. optical)
illusion, which occurs in the empirical employment of rules of
understanding that are otherwise correct, and through which
the faculty of judgment is misled by the influence of imagina-
tion; we are concerned only with transcendental illusion, which
exerts its influence on principles that are in no wise intended for
use in experience, in which case we should at least have had a
criterion of their correctness. In defiance of all the warnings of
criticism, it carries us altogether beyond the empirical employ-
ment of categories and puts us off with a merely deceptive exten-
sion of pure understanding.
++ Sensibility, when subordinated to understanding, as the object
upon which the latter exercises its function, is the source of real
modes of knowledge. But the same sensibility, in so far as it in-
fluences the operation of understanding, and determines it to make
judgments, is the ground of error.
P 298
We shall entitle the principles whose
application is confined entirely within the limits of possible
P 299
experience, immanent; and those, on the other hand, which
profess to pass beyond these limits, transcendent. In the case of
these latter, I am not referring to the transcendental employ-
ment or misemployment of the categories, which is merely an
error of the faculty of judgment when it is not duly curbed by
criticism, and therefore does not pay sufficient attention to the
bounds of the territory within which alone free play is allowed
to pure understanding. I mean actual principles which incite
us to tear down all those boundary-fences and to seize posses-
sion of an entirely new domain which recognises no limits of
demarcation. Thus transcendental and transcendent are not
interchangeable terms.
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That's brilliant. It might be hard to apply it to your personal life today, but think about it in the context of the time in which it was written. The two prevailing philosophies of the time were empiricism and rationalism, the former claiming that all knowledge was based on experience (the senses) and the latter claiming that it was based on reason (the mind). Kant successfully bridged the two philosophies by postulating that the mind interprets what the senses perceive; a theory that seems obvious to us today but wasn't back then. Might seem heady an impractical, but not when you think about how these philosophies determine something as important as how we think about the world itself, and how we learn and make decisions in that world.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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dr wu23
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 10:43 |
Some food for thought in this piece...........many interesting points of view and links
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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wilmon91
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 11:03 |
rogerthat wrote:
What I am not convinced of is what the formal branch of philosophy has to do with my evolving my own views on these things. |
rogerthat wrote:
it is an extremely subjective business and differs from culture to culture. |
The ”formal branch” probably appeared someweher in the 18th century, but we are talking about philosophy alltogether. Wisdom is univeral, so it relates to everybody's evolvement. Because everyone has reasonings with themselves, questions come up naturally. It would be strange to dismiss the entire history of philosophy at the same time as you reason with yourself, debating questions around existence – you engage in personal philosophic thinking even if you won't write a book on it.. And it is naive to think that your questions have never been dealt with by other philosophers before. But a good philosopher can make arguments for different viewpoints rather than saying ”this is the way it is according to me”. That is exactly what Plato avoids with the dialectic method. If reading philosophers with opposing views, the only judge is yourself to decide what stuff you agree on and what you are sceptical about, and the point is of course not to read a philosopher as if it is your new religion. Stay neutral, to try to understand everything but not necessarily agree upon (all of) it.. It is of course not a substitute to forming your own views.
rogerthat wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that subjectivity and ideological dogma ultimately renders it a futile pursuit and feel thankful with the benefit of received wisdom that I did not choose to major in it |
”Ideological dogma” sounds like something with political intentions....of course ideas present values and views on life. It sounds like you are afraid to become a victim, being brainwashed and controlled by a system. But with or without philosophy you still have to live by your own values. And you are always under the influence of society which is formed by ideology. You can't take away that unless you want to live outside society. I don't understand why you think it's ”futile pursuit”. How do you want to be presented philosophical ideas? As absolute truths? Wisdom will never be an academic science. Only paying attention to everything that can be measured and observed is doing human nature a great disservice. Everything else will have some degree of subjectivity, but you can reason by yourself, you are not a robot. To atheists the word ”dogma” is something threatening, and everything pertaining to religion and philosophy is ultimately about forcing laws upon people , abusing them within some maniacal system of thought. That is very sad and just shows fear and lack of knowledge. You can hear anyone's views without having to subscribe to it, believe in your own independence.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 11:26 |
wilmon91 wrote:
but we are talking about philosophy alltogether. |
... actually I wasn't at the start of all this, but please, continue.
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What?
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 17524
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 11:38 |
Dean wrote:
... Older philosophy was a far broader palette than anything since the 17th century yet they still presented theory and counter-theory to describe the same event. The foundations of modern society (in terms of laws and ethics) is rooted in the ancient philosophies even though we didn't get specific ethics or laws from them. |
This is hard to explain to folks that do not understand the role of the "media" in the 20th century and how it brought out things, that otherwise we would never have understood, or believed. AND, how may cultures are still trying to hide things from people by censoring that same media ... Your wordind about the root is absolutely correct.
wilmon91 wrote:
Whether people are into philosophy or not they will always live according to some form of philosophy. In all societies different things motivate people. In western society ,many are driven towards goals formed out of ideas of ”happiness” and self-realization. Not seldom people are fooling themselves, for example neither money or fame will automatically lead to happiness.Philosophy is what can help people find out what is really meaningful, to become more openminded, and not judging things too quickly and so on. |
It's not different than the "top ten" society, and the "consumerist" society and the "star" society, or the "hero" society, and any attempt to separate/describe them will inevitably get you to the same spot. Whether it is something that can help, is questionable, since you are making an assumption that some people are not "already there" and they don't need the definition or the philosophy at all ... they already are a part of it. The problem here is ... that most social molds tend to think they are right and that others are wrong! And that has little to do with philosophy ... more control than anything else!
wilmon91 wrote:
The 6th century philosopher Lao Tzu has great quotes, you can search the internet, I have never seen a quote by him that is less than great. And of course there are no ”counter-theories” to his philosophy because he is not an 19th century philosopher. Such quotes may challenge your own ideas, and you consider them, and some philosophical thinking ensues in your head. |
So? Dean has great quotes. I have some. Snow Dog has great one liners ... and they are only challenging if you choose to read more into it ... and sometimes ... like Dean suggests ... there is nothing more to it ... but you might be convinced that there is! The worst part of it all ... is that most folks do not have the internal constitution to make sense of any line, enough to see the wisdom in them and the idea behind it. Worse yet, is the laziness, that the lyrics in a song have to TELL YOU what it is about so you know ... which is not progressive at all of a concept or idea!
wilmon91 wrote:
Take away human intellect and we will be like other wild animals in nature. Homo Sapiens were more primitive 50000 years ago, as we know. There were no philosophy. If you still want to keep the intellect, but get rid of philosophy, how can people work together in common projects if you can't form and agree upon ideas that explains the purpose and meaning and fairness of things? No values and no ethics, yet you think it's gonna work by itself . Because by saying that philosophy is the problem and the cause of all bad things (religion, politics, etc) you imply that by taking away philosophy we will also get rid of the problem (and maybe humans would cease to be ”arrogant”???) But then society couldn't exist. |
You need to go see "2001, A Space Odyssey" again ... and do not take drugs for it, btw! You're confusing two things ... there is a parallel and it has nothing to do with "intelect" ... the monkees used bones and we use guns and bombs! Nothing has changed, except the tools! No one took the philosophy away from the monkees. No one took away the philosophy of the modern human ... but they are convinced more than ever that power and control is more important than anything else ... and some religions are based on that to the point of supporting many things that you and I do not like, or appreciate!
Dean wrote:
Since Aristotle's time we have managed to separate out the disciplines of Science, Philosophy and Alchemy - one of these permits the major advances we have experience, one of them we have discarded as charlatan, the other hangs on by the skin of its teeth because... | Not to mention that if Aristotle was around today, and posting on the PA, he would be thought of as a moron, and a total arsenichole! Don't forget that!
Dean wrote:
Philosophy has never figured anything out and I honestly don't expect that it ever will, the process of looking for the answer is not the goal. |
I look at "philosophy" as an attempt to put together the thoughts and ideas of the time ... can it define something? .. Sure, why not ... but the likelihood that any of us will take it seriously is the problem. And it's really easy to see why ... there are a lot of really good things coming and going in PA and posts that are "golden" and very insightful, and neat ... but there is always one goon ready to trash it, and make a worthless coment, the inevitable TROLL ... becomes hip and the poster does not ... and this is a problem with the social mold, not philosophy! One could be considered philosophy, the other is not! How to bring this back to the "prog mind", it really tells you that many of us are not that serious about the meaning of the whole thing. We just like the music and that's that ... and we will be hard pressed to discuss it as to why we like it, and in some cases, folks get offended when asked why they like something ... because some folks don't know ... and don't know that it is ok to say that ... but it makes them feel stupid! I believe a lot of this is a conditioning ... if you travel a lot, and experience a lot of different places and cultures, this is one of the things that you learn to be able to come to grips with ... because if you don't, it means you are caught between cultures and almost always at the wrong place at the wrong time. It's frustrating as hell, I tell you!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
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Points: 14122
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 11:47 |
"Inquisition" has been invented by Vatican not by Aristotelis and Nazism hasn't been invented by Nietzsche. Phylosophers aren't a problem. Who pretends to interpret them is dangerous. It's the same with prophets and statists. Lenin wasn't Stalin and Jesus Christ wasn't St. Paul.
If he lived today I'd suggest Plato and Aristotelis for progressive electronic or even space rock.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
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Points: 869
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 12:27 |
^
Plato and the interplanetary Monkees
Aristotle and the Acid Heads From Andromeda
Yeah! Space Rock!
Anyway, this is the philosophy everyone should phollow.
(Shameless plug!)
Edited by Larree - May 19 2013 at 14:57
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VOTOMS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 18 2013
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Points: 1420
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 15:12 |
I think you can pretty know about the men knowing about what music they use to listen to. When I first met someone I always ask: what kind of music do u listen to? This is a way to know who you are, from the inside. If u are open minded or not, if u are depressed or not, if u are influenced by others or not...
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
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Points: 698
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 15:48 |
Sorry, pretty long...
Dean wrote:
Ethics is not a product of philosophy, |
Dean wrote:
I posit that values and ethics came first, ad hoc and then formal Philosophy followed. |
Ethics
is a part of philosophy though, as a matter of fact. How do you
describe or indulge in ethics if not with philosophical arguments?? Your idea of philosophy is in need of being revised.
Dean wrote:
wisdom is not a product of philosophy. Philosophy (though it pains me to say it) is a use of knowledge and the use of knowledge is indeed wisdom, but there are other uses of knowledge that can be called wisdom that are not philosophy so they are not synonymous. You can teach philosophy but cannot teach wisdom, you can only teach knowledge. Application of knowledge by rote is not wisdom, application of philosophy by rote is not wisdom. | No, wisdom must be the product of (good) philosophy, knowledge and a harmonic way of life (for example including meditation). It should aso be dependent on a pure soul, because that's were the true motivations come from. Philosophy means someone who loves wisdom, if you already possessed it you wouldn't need philosophy. You search for wisdom (knowledge, insights understanding) by engaging in philosophy (thinking, reasoning) with the aim of understanding. Books on philosophy are the product of intellectual or logical reasoning , and may in turn produce incomplete philosophical systems with ideas that aren't fully explained - so it isn't necessarily the product of knowledge.
Dean wrote:
Older philosophy was a far broader palette than anything since the 17th century yet they still presented theory and counter-theory to describe the same event. The foundations of modern society (in terms of laws and ethics) is rooted in the ancient philosophies even though we didn't get specific ethics or laws from them. | Yes. So how can you disregard philosophy when realizing that the civilization is based in human philosophical ideas?
Dean wrote:
Yup and nope. Everyone has a philosophy (or two or five), those philosophies are not a product of Philosophy per sey. If people change their philosophy it is through experience and the acquision of knowledge, we learn we grow we change. That change occurs and is recognised as a different philosophy, it did not occur because they read a Philosopher and wanted to adopt that Philosophy, it just affirmed what they already arrived at. |
Yes but what you are saying explains that there is a value to philosophy, because it is valuable (or crucial) to learn from experience. But people in general prefer practical examples before abstract philosophy. You could watch a movie or read a book about someones misfortunes and overcoming obstacles and maybe learn something from it. Philosophy, instead of telling stories, focus on general main principles in abstract form. It's a more intelectual approach to everything that has to do with existence. So if you at any time feel that you have learned from an experience and changed as a person, you could write down what you learned in general terms, and that will be philosophy. Personal philosophical ideas and philosophical books are about the same thing.
Dean wrote:
Back on topic, Taoism is a common source of Prog lyrics, even when distilled through A.A. Milne (Mansun and Genesis for example). |
Nice. And Howard Jones has a song called ”Is there a difference?” which ripped off a Lao Tzu verse, just a few words changed, His 80's albums have philosophical lyrics, basic advice like ”don't crack up, bend your brain, see both sides, throw off your mental chains”.
Dean wrote:
There is a mass of human knowledge that we have forgotten over the ages, whether by accident or design, progress has stalled on many occasions because of someone's philosophical idealism. Today we look back at the achievements of antiquity with awe because we have forgotten the knowledge that produced them. . |
The loss of valuable knowledge is most probably due to wars and violence (you want to blame that on philosophy too!?). Many traditions were kept alive by transferring them orally through generations, rather than writing them down. There is that indian wisdom , I forgot he name, which is not available in writing, but actually half of it is available, half is only told. Yes we shouldn' t underestimate the ancient people. Yet in school you are taught that people believed the earth was the center of the universe, that it was flat, they were superstitious, burning witches etc. In other words, they were stupid, and in our modern times with modern science we are more advanced in all respects. But our times are extremely materialistic, we only believe in tangible things.
Dean wrote:
it is this ambiguity that causes concern since no society really embarks on an endeavour believing they are doing a "bad thing" when their philosophy says it's a "good thing". A philosophy does not have to have a diametric opposite when it contains the capability of having opposing interpretations applied to it. . |
But societies aren't ruled by philosophers, it has mostly been ruled by people hungry for power. Bad leaders don't care about philosophy. They control the people and think they own the country. When you cheat with the votes during an election, it's not part of a philosophy that says it's right to cheat. But they have to justify their actions somehow - with excuses , not philosophy.
Dean wrote:
I'm not a materialist. |
That's nice.
Dean wrote:
Positing a testable hypothesis is not Philosophy, that is positing an untestable one, theoretical physists are not philosophers (and vice versa). |
What i meant was that philosophical ideas may give rise to hypotheses regarding the material nature, which can be tested. The philosopher Friedrich von Schelling , if I understood correctly, predicted the existence of Pallas, which he thought was a planet, but turned out to be a a moon. It was later discovered by someone else by using a telescope.Another thing was that magnetism was seen by physicists as ”the property of a single metal”, while Schelling had presented it as ”a necessary category of matter” - later experiments by a french physicist proved him right.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 19:13 |
wilmon91 wrote:
Sorry, pretty long...
Ethics is a part of philosophy though, as a matter of fact. How do you describe or indulge in ethics if not with philosophical arguments?? Your idea of philosophy is in need of being revised. |
Erm. Nope. Ethics would exist without philosophy and philosophy is a means of describing and discussing ethics, that does not make ethics a product or part of philosophy. My idea of philosophy is just fine thanks.
wilmon91 wrote:
No, wisdom must be the product of (good) philosophy, knowledge and a harmonic way of life (for example including meditation). It should aso be dependent on a pure soul, because that's were the true motivations come from. Philosophy means someone who loves wisdom, if you already possessed it you wouldn't need philosophy. You search for wisdom (knowledge, insights understanding) by engaging in philosophy (thinking, reasoning) with the aim of understanding. Books on philosophy are the product of intellectual or logical reasoning , and may in turn produce incomplete philosophical systems with ideas that aren't fully explained - so it isn't necessarily the product of knowledge. |
Now you're getting selective. Suggesting that wisdom comes through a harmonic way of life (for example including meditation) is absurd, as is any notion of a pure soul (? I have a sole on each foot as far as I know I have no soul, pure or otherwise), can I never be wise if I lack both? This inseparable connection between philosophy and wisdom you describe is 24 caret Arrogance. However, I do accept that not all philosophy is the product of knowledge, much of it is a product of quite the opposite.
wilmon91 wrote:
Yes. So how can you disregard philosophy when realizing that the civilization is based in human philosophical ideas? |
Well, first off, I never claimed that civilisation is based in human philosophical ideas because I do not believe that it is, nor did what I said count as a realisation of that. I believe civilisation has evolved in spite of philosophical interference. Civilisation grew out of community, which grew out of tribe, which grew out of extended family, which grew out of family - a natural process of inevitability due to population growth - morality and ethics are a natural consequence of being a social pack animal - similar groupings and social structurings are seen in nature and they also function using basic hierarchical social rules - ethics are rules for behaving in a society, how do meerkats have social rules without meerkat philosophers?
wilmon91 wrote:
Yes but what you are saying explains that there is a value to philosophy, because it is valuable (or crucial) to learn from experience. But people in general prefer practical examples before abstract philosophy. You could watch a movie or read a book about someones misfortunes and overcoming obstacles and maybe learn something from it. Philosophy, instead of telling stories, focus on general main principles in abstract form. It's a more intelectual approach to everything that has to do with existence. So if you at any time feel that you have learned from an experience and changed as a person, you could write down what you learned in general terms, and that will be philosophy. Personal philosophical ideas and philosophical books are about the same thing. |
If that works for you then great - have a good one. I don't think people learn experience from a book whether that is nartative or abstract. You can learn how to play the guitar in a few weeks from reading a book - you can learn tuning, where all the notes are on the frets, the chord shapes and the best way to pick out musical scales across the six strings, you can also learn hammer-on and pull-off, pinched harmonics, bending, sliding and vibrato and all the other playing techniques. But unless you have a guitar you haven't learnt to play it, you've only learnt how to play it... so you buy a guitar and still you cannot play it even though all that knowledge is in your head.
::there is more to this reply but I got that "more intelectual" BS stuck in my head and lost the will to complete this train of thought, sorry (well not sorry at all really, I'm just being polite)::
wilmon91 wrote:
The loss of valuable knowledge is most probably due to wars and violence (you want to blame that on philosophy too!?). Many traditions were kept alive by transferring them orally through generations, rather than writing them down. There is that indian wisdom , I forgot he name, which is not available in writing, but actually half of it is available, half is only told. Yes we shouldn' t underestimate the ancient people. Yet in school you are taught that people believed the earth was the center of the universe, that it was flat, they were superstitious, burning witches etc. In other words, they were stupid, and in our modern times with modern science we are more advanced in all respects. But our times are extremely materialistic, we only believe in tangible things. |
(are you claiming that a philosophy has never been responsible for wars?... really? ... I mean, seriously? Seriously really?)
Who said these people were stupid for believing those things? Whoever told you that were themselves being stupid. [the flat earth thing is a bit of a myth, current thinking is that few people in antiquity believed it was flat, the bible imples it is spherical, the Egyptians knew it curved and the Greeks definitely thought it a sphere].
wilmon91 wrote:
Dean wrote:
it is this ambiguity that causes concern since no society really embarks on an endeavour believing they are doing a "bad thing" when their philosophy says it's a "good thing". A philosophy does not have to have a diametric opposite when it contains the capability of having opposing interpretations applied to it. . |
But societies aren't ruled by philosophers, it has mostly been ruled by people hungry for power. Bad leaders don't care about philosophy. They control the people and think they own the country. When you cheat with the votes during an election, it's not part of a philosophy that says it's right to cheat. But they have to justify their actions somehow - with excuses , not philosophy. |
I think you are being a little too selective now on what is and what is not philosophy. The way you are going now it seems to be all good things are philosophy and all bad things are not. This just isn't the case.
wilmon91 wrote:
What i meant was that philosophical ideas may give rise to hypotheses regarding the material nature, which can be tested. The philosopher Friedrich von Schelling , if I understood correctly, predicted the existence of Pallas, which he thought was a planet, but turned out to be a a moon. It was later discovered by someone else by using a telescope.Another thing was that magnetism was seen by physicists as ”the property of a single metal”, while Schelling had presented it as ”a necessary category of matter” - later experiments by a french physicist proved him right.
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You are being a little too vague here.
I don't know Herr Schelling but the planet thing seems a bit fanciful to me - if Piazzi had discovered Pluto or Sedna instead of Pallas I suspect that Schelling would have claimed credit for that instead. At that time every object that orbited the sun was called a planet so Pallas was classified as a planet (never a moon), it was then reclassified as an asteroid (because even in the mid 19th century astronomers thought it too small to be a true planet) and just recently as a minor-planet. I don't know the details of Herr Schelling prediction or the date of it, but Ceres was discovered the year before Pallas - so predicting finding another after the discovery of Ceres would have been a safe bet, in fact they found two more 'planets', Pallas and Vesta and 14 moons, yet they hadn't discovered Neptune or Pluto. Since then we've catalogued over half a million minor-planets orbiting the Sun - so you cannot even call it a lucky guess, it was an inevitability. No one went looking for Pallas just because Schelling said it should exist nor was it found as a direct result of Schelling saying is should exist ... (for a hypothesis of a planet's existence to be testable it has to predict where in the sky it will be found, did he make such prior calculations?).
You're going to have to be a lot more specific on the magnetism thing... are you talking about "spin"? - if so, no, he didn't. I suspect he was talking of other forms of attraction that he simply called "magnetism" because magnets attract - this analogous naming convention was common in the 19th century.
However, the result of all that is irrelevant - Schelling's musings and hypothesis did not result in the discovery of Pallas nor is he credited with anything in the history of magnetism and electromagnetism. I'm calling "fail" on that unless proven otherwise.
Philosophy is looking more like the thief of ideas rather than their creator.
Edited by Dean - May 19 2013 at 19:25
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What?
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
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Points: 869
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 19:53 |
Dean wrote:
Philosophy is looking more like the thief of ideas rather than their creator. |
Bettah sue philosophy for copyright infringement!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 20:24 |
wilmon91 wrote:
”Ideological dogma” sounds like something with political intentions....of course ideas present values and views on life. It sounds like you are afraid to become a victim, being brainwashed and controlled by a system. But with or without philosophy you still have to live by your own values. And you are always under the influence of society which is formed by ideology. You can't take away that unless you want to live outside society. I don't understand why you think it's ”futile pursuit”. How do you want to be presented philosophical ideas? As absolute truths? Wisdom will never be an academic science. Only paying attention to everything that can be measured and observed is doing human nature a great disservice. Everything else will have some degree of subjectivity, but you can reason by yourself, you are not a robot. To atheists the word ”dogma” is something threatening, and everything pertaining to religion and philosophy is ultimately about forcing laws upon people , abusing them within some maniacal system of thought. That is very sad and just shows fear and lack of knowledge. You can hear anyone's views without having to subscribe to it, believe in your own independence.
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And there is considerable proof from the last century or even the first decade of the present one that ideological dogma frequently becomes a weapon for political propoganda. Whether it was communism for the lefties or capitalism for Tories and Republicans or the later pop-capitalism of Clinton and Bush Jr what is it but a tool to win elections or retain power? Maybe my way of looking at it is cynical but it's still a good deal less cynical, arguably, than what these leaders sought to achieve. I have to say that, not being a Westerner, I have a hard time understanding why people in the West seem to draw themselves into left/right battle lines and fight elections on these planks when both 'sides' of the coin offer viable solutions to different issues faced by govt (which ideally ought to be the basis on which parties seek election or re-election, as applicable). Not that Westerners can understand why caste or religion is so important in South Asian politics (nor can I) , but just saying....
Um, I don't mind that it is subjective but yes, I don't understand how something that is subjective could be imposed or form the basis for collective action. I have my own ideas about the world and I prefer not to affiliate with any groups in that respect or identify my views with the work of any specific philosopher. I just don't see what purpose it serves because I didn't read their work to arrive at my opinions in the first place. Also,being that I have experience very little of the world first hand, I'd also prefer not to have strong opinions about it and even less to be influenced by somebody else's writings on it. I'd want to find out by myself instead.
On the other hand, being that it is subjective, I think it only becomes the subject of endless arguments and counter-arguments without much resolution. Look at the arguments on this forum...if they are so hard to resolve, what is the likelihood of getting two learned, erudite people to see eye to eye. They say in a jocular vein that eight economists would give you eight definitions of the word economics but that's bad, that's terrible - you have to at least make a start at consensus. You can't have just demand side or supply side economics, both work in tandem in practice. I am an accountant and despite USA's best efforts to have its own way, we are trying to achieve some convergence in practices so that there can be more or less one language to represent the present day international nature of business. I think both extremes are bad - seeking to impose subjective thoughts by means of authority or simply refusing to agree on things which are not necessarily so debatable just for the sake of it. In either event, ideological dogma is perhaps more suitable to massage the ego than to achieve something constructive.
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dr wu23
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 22:20 |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Larree
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 22:24 |
^ Nice!
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Dayvenkirq
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Posted: May 19 2013 at 22:49 |
^ That's a great one for the likes of the girl standing in front of the map - Ms. Amy Farrah Fowler.
Larree wrote:
Dean wrote:
Philosophy is looking more like the thief of ideas rather than their creator. |
Bettah sue philosophy for copyright infringement! |
Right. Let's be dumbass motherf$%kers without referring to our heads as the processors and holders of database.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 19 2013 at 22:55
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moshkito
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Posted: May 20 2013 at 15:33 |
rogerthat wrote:
... ”Ideological dogma” sounds like something with political intentions....of course ideas present values and views on life. It sounds like you are afraid to become a victim, being brainwashed and controlled by a system.... |
It has always been like this ... and even a man named Jesus was a good orator and was able to convince people he was right! The political side of it, might come alive or not, but more often than not is a result of the ideas, not a fore-runner of the ideas! BIGGGG difference! The problem is how you condemn people or say you are wrong ... in Portugal, at least 2 of us children had guns pointed to our heads ready to fire, to shut up the dad from writing more freedom propaganda under the guise of movie reviews, theater and ballett and literature. At ProgArchives, you just have three or 4 trolls ruin the thread by saying absolutley nothing, and distorting the content of the thread. Out in the cafeteria at your college, no one gives a damn, because that blonde sure looks nice and everyone is hitting on her! Top Ten is a form of brainwashing ... or control by a system ... but you don't see that?
rogerthat wrote:
... But with or without philosophy you still have to live by your own values.... |
You hope ... if you are so inclined. Must see and read the story of Kasper Hauser for you as homework. Even Werner Herzog's film is ok to see, instead! But you can see, that there are many folks that are not only not showing "values", by the time you put 25 of their comments in one place ... I would say that ... x has no values, y things values are a joke, and z is just a troll! And so on and so forth! BUT ... you and I can only say that because we have a set of "values" for what things might or might not be, and its corrected'ness!
rogerthat wrote:
... And you are always under the influence of society which is formed by ideology. You can't take away that unless you want to live outside society. I don't understand why you think it's ”futile pursuit”. .... |
Now you know why I fight for the inclusion of more information onto the definition of "progressive", because it is almost exclusive of other countries and places, where the same similar ideologies also lived, but we do not think that a backward like Googapulga could possibly have a progressive rock band that no one heard, because it wasn't in London and was kissed by Melody Maker, or toured with Kansas or Rush! Same thing ... continioning about ... "it's all you know" ... and the problem is ... "what you DON'T KNOW is way bigger than what you know by 1,000,000,000,000 to 1! But we're so godamn'ed stuck up on our God belief that says that it can't be possible and ... thus ... etc, etc, etc!
rogerthat wrote:
... To atheists the word ”dogma” is something threatening, and everything pertaining to religion and philosophy is ultimately about forcing laws upon people , abusing them within some maniacal system of thought. That is very sad and just shows fear and lack of knowledge. You can hear anyone's views without having to subscribe to it, believe in your own independence. ... |
Carefull ... you are entering a realm that is very mystical and off kilter to our non-linear and somewhat imaginary didatic christianized philosophy! An atheist might not believe in your "form" or "idea" of God, but to suggest that he/she is too stupid to have any ideas or philosophies of their own, is criminal and not wise! Before you "judge" these "dogmas" ... go read the really difficult visual stuff that Castaneda has (for example) or Robert Monroe, or even a Aleister Crowley, or Dion Fortune ... and you are assuming a hierarchy and order for things that belong in another universe and galaxy in a much biggers cluster of galaxies that we can not conceive, except to think that we're right and the galaxy is wrong! The real issue is how ANY social mold tries hard to hide these things to ensure that you do not learn to be as independent and not be a part of the mold .... that you are expected to be a part of!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Dean
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Posted: May 20 2013 at 15:54 |
moshkito wrote:
Top Ten is a form of brainwashing ... or control by a system ... but you don't see that?
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What?
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refugee
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Posted: May 20 2013 at 18:16 |
Dean wrote:
Philosophy is a waste of a mind, it is the single most useless invention mankind has ever created, and the nonsense that dribbles from the mouths of pop and rock lyricists are some of the worst example of that. Prog lyrics are often poor poetry and even poorer philosophy even when compared to the inane banality of Hit Me baby One More Time. Why should I think that the probably drunken and possibly drug-addled musings of a singer in a rock band should carry any meaningful message or insight into the human condition. If the words tell a story then great, if they attempt to impart wisdom then ... meh. |
For once I have to disagree with you, my dear old Queen … oops, sorry, my queer old Dean. It’s not like philosophy couldn’t exist without PA, it’s the other way around. Even the PC in front of you wouldn’t have been there if it wasn’t for brilliant thinkers like Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Newton, Kant and George W. (I’m not so sure about the last one, but he’s definitely misunderestimated). But, well, I think Second Life Syndrome is more or less right. Neo-Romantic mentioned A Louse is Not a Home and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Hammill and Gabriel still tell me a lot, and I can assure you that I’ve read a few other poets. Not all of them age as well as the two Peters.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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Dean
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Posted: May 20 2013 at 18:48 |
refugee wrote:
For once I have to disagree with you, my dear old Queen … oops, sorry, my queer old Dean. |
And you can p ss off. (please note that is used in the imperative)
refugee wrote:
It’s not like philosophy couldn’t exist without PA, it’s the other way around. Even the PC in front of you wouldn’t have been there if it wasn’t for brilliant thinkers like Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Newton, Kant and George W. (I’m not so sure about the last one, but he’s definitely misunderestimated).
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I'll accept Aristotle as he formalised the scientific method, and Descartes and Newton because they were a mathematicians and scientists (though Newton's alchemy puts him on the naughty-step for at least a month, maybe longer as he dabbled in philosophy too) - I'll also grant you that Plato and Kant are on a parr with GW Bush. Thinking about existence doesn't get things done, no matter how brilliant you may think they were.
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What?
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refugee
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Posted: May 20 2013 at 19:10 |
Dean wrote:
refugee wrote:
For once I have to disagree with you, my dear old Queen … oops, sorry, my queer old Dean. |
And you can p ss off. (please note that is used in the imperative)
refugee wrote:
It’s not like philosophy couldn’t exist without PA, it’s the other way around. Even the PC in front of you wouldn’t have been there if it wasn’t for brilliant thinkers like Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Newton, Kant and George W. (I’m not so sure about the last one, but he’s definitely misunderestimated).
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I'll accept Aristotle as he formalised the scientific method, and Descartes and Newton because they were a mathematicians and scientists (though Newton's alchemy puts him on the naughty-step for at least a month, maybe longer as he dabbled in philosophy too) - I'll also grant you that Plato and Kant are on a parr with GW Bush. Thinking about existence doesn't get things done, no matter how brilliant you may think they were. |
I’m sure you know that Kant’s project was both to provide a philosophical foundation for Newton’s ideas and to fight off the moral relativism of Hume. I don’t know if he really succeeded, but at least he gave it a try. And I think you could agree with this quote by Peter Hammill: I was thinking about thinking but it really didn't get me very far Good night!
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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