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Dayvenkirq 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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 Posted: April 03 2013 at 17:34 |
^ I can't come up with anything to counter anything from what you've said ... so far. 
Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 03 2013 at 17:34
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 17:04 |
 dr wu23 wrote:
IJust an observation; but it seems to me some people who are clever often like to show that they are and write provocative reviews, articles, blogs , etc to perhaps get a reaction. Just saying.......... |
if you read the arguments of the author of the 1 star review, this is clearly a different case. He wrote what he feels about that album, nothing more. One shouldn't be influenced by other reviews when he/she writes his/her own review, otherwise the review is biased. The guy had the courage to go against the mainstream and we should salute him for that. I even wonder if it is not the only "objective" review of this album...
Edited by lucas - April 03 2013 at 17:04
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20624
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 16:55 |
I think Snow Dog pointed out that Hercules, who started this thread because of a one star review he didn't like, did a one star review of VDGG's Pawn Hearts which of course many consider a true classic and many feel the same way about Free Hand by GG. Now that's irony. Having said that I certainly think a one star rating of Free Hand is ridiculous but as many have already said each person is entitled to their opinion. I have always found both bands to be very challenging at times but certainly worthy of repeated listens and imho there is nothing that rates 1 star in either bands output. Just an observation; but it seems to me some people who are clever often like to show that they are and write provocative reviews, articles, blogs , etc to perhaps get a reaction. Just saying..........
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8619
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 16:40 |
irrelevant wrote:
presdoug wrote:
There is something so right about Freehand, they achieve something there the other albums don't quite have. It will always be my favorite. |
Rarely do you hear a prog album, or any kind of album for that matter, that sounds so sure. A massive achievement and quite possibly my favourite album of all time. It's just kick-ass solid prog rock from start to finish. Also, thumbs up for being a fellow fan of The Missing Piece.  |
Thanks for your reply
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 16:39 |
Yes, I wrote that review shortly after I lost my partner of 6 years to cancer. I was depressed and VDGG's dark music was not what I wanted to listen to. I don't like VDGG but 1* is clearly unfair.
I intend to change it when I find out how.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 16:03 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
lucas wrote:
OK I will write my one-star review. And will try this exercise with other bands like Opeth or Porcupine Tree. |
As a collaborator you get 20x weighting, so unlike the case of Tubes here it actually is pretty irresponsible of you to purposely manipulate ratings. "Only for completionists" is a pretty specific criterion.
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you are really the most procedural guy I ever saw in my life ! I am free to give any rating I want when I review an album : this rating will mirror my overall appreciation of the music, and not follow curious rules (such as level of progressiveness).
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15921
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 06:30 |
Atavachron wrote:
I've got a free hand right now and I'm putting it to good use. |
I hope she's satisfied............
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 04:13 |
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I've got a free hand right now and I'm putting it to good use.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 04:10 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ What's so wise about the quote?
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Well, it's from Hercules' one star review of Pawn Hearts...
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 03:42 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ What's so wise about the quote?
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Well, it's from Hercules' one star review of Pawn Hearts...
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irrelevant
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 13382
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 03:06 |
presdoug wrote:
There is something so right about Freehand, they achieve something there the other albums don't quite have. It will always be my favorite. |
Rarely do you hear a prog album, or any kind of album for that matter, that sounds so sure. A massive achievement and quite possibly my favourite album of all time. It's just kick-ass solid prog rock from start to finish.
Also, thumbs up for being a fellow fan of The Missing Piece.
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15921
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 00:58 |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 20:21 |
axeman wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Where does it say in the guidelines what every rating means exactly? And people understand the system differently. |
Just because something doesn't have an exact meaning, doesn't mean that an album with dozens of 4 star and 5 star reviews can be labeled "for completionists only". |
I don't know. That depends.
axeman wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
... I bet that a lot of those meanings would sound valid to me. For instance, what do you understand by "good but non-essential"? |
Well, that rating is dead center, so it has a range anywhere from "for fans or collectors" to "a good addition to any collection".
Would you recommend it to any prog fan? It's a 4. Is it only for fans of that particular group? That's a 2. Roughly, everything else is 3-territory. And that's fine, because it is the center. I would even say most prog fans, with a few key exceptions, say, probably not for tech metal fans...., would rate a 4 as well. |
You see? This is exactly what I was saying: the interpretation of the ratings varies from person to person. I would interpret the three-star rating differently.
axeman wrote:
Of course, one of the problems, I find is that as prog expands in silos. The "welcome addition to any prog collection" would be harder and harder to define. |
I don't understand what you've said there.
axeman wrote:
Basically, the reviews of professional critics often give the tone that they can pronounce the final verdict separating the good from the bad. It prompts the same basic a-hattery that pushed prog out of the public. When you put it into the frame of recommending for other prog fans, you might not be able to recommend something that has actual value. |
I really don't know about that. I think it is possible to put whatever tone you want in your review (as long as it is not really offensive) and still recommend something of value (however you want to do that).
axeman wrote:
If you give somebody else enough to decide if their tastes are like yours, then perhaps you might save them a couple bucks. |
How does one link taste to economy? 
axeman wrote:
Framed as recommendations with a focus on audience of that recommendation, it reminds us that this is a vastly subjective field. |
What reminds us that what is a vastly subjective field?
Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 02 2013 at 20:22
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3145
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 19:43 |
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I would say no but people are entitled to their opinions
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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geneyesontle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 14 2012
Location: Quebec
Status: Offline
Points: 1266
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 19:38 |
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No way. It's my second favorite GG album.
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Poseidon wants to Acquire the Taste of the Fragile Lamb
- Derek Adrian Gabriel Anderson, singer of the band Geneyesontle
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axeman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2008
Location: Michigan, US
Status: Offline
Points: 235
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 19:31 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Where does it say in the guidelines what every rating means exactly? And people understand the system differently. |
Just because something doesn't have an exact meaning, doesn't mean that an album with dozens of 4 star and 5 star reviews can be labeled "for completionists only".
Dayvenkirq wrote:
... I bet that a lot of those meanings would sound valid to me. For instance, what do you understand by "good but non-essential"? |
Well, that rating is dead center, so it has a range anywhere from "for fans or collectors" to "a good addition to any collection".
Would you recommend it to any prog fan? It's a 4. Is it only for fans of that particular group? That's a 2. Roughly, everything else is 3-territory. And that's fine, because it is the center. I would even say most prog fans, with a few key exceptions, say, probably not for tech metal fans...., would rate a 4 as well.
Of course, one of the problems, I find is that as prog expands in silos. The "welcome addition to any prog collection" would be harder and harder to define.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I've no idea what you just said there. |
I'll take a second stab at it then.
Basically, the reviews of professional critics often give the tone that they can pronounce the final verdict separating the good from the bad. It prompts the same basic a-hattery that pushed prog out of the public. When you put it into the frame of recommending for other prog fans, you might not be able to recommend something that has actual value. If you give somebody else enough to decide if their tastes are like yours, then perhaps you might save them a couple bucks.
Framed as recommendations with a focus on audience of that recommendation, it reminds us that this is a vastly subjective field.
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-John
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4091
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 19:31 |
Tubes wrote:
@BrufordFreak, what the hell is with that closing statement, dude? You ARE a freak (just kidding). And to counter your point, I've seen and heard enough GG live stuff to know they suck even worse without the studio. I'm not arguing this with anybody; don't waste my time. You also assert that they "worked hard and were very serious at what they did." Gentle Giant are the least serious and least deliberately committed 'prog' band I have ever heard. Gentle Giant, unlike almost every important classic progressive rock group, has no single magnum opus peice of music, let alone several as there are in many cases. They never made an epic, so to speak. Yes has Awaken and the Gates of Delirium which are about the attainment of immortality upon death, and the Second Advent of Christ, respectively. Very solemn stuff. Genesis has Supper's Ready, inspired by a supernatural experience of Peter Gabriel's and the Book of Revelation. Jethro Tull has at least the My God side of Aqualung, which criticizes organized religion. Even Thick as a Brick, despite it's parodic nature, has a lot to say. They don't sound like they have any self-respect as musicians or writers, wasting so much record space on their 30 minute albums (Average record playing length is 40 minutes, and Genesis consistently delivered upwards of 50 mintutes) with musical comedy. You know what's hilarious? -That Thick as a Brick, which is a commentary on the rubbish that passes for culture, went to No. 1! Could that be more ironic!?! I've never heard Gentle Giant top that. |
Pretty sure neither Awaken and Gates or whatever are about the second advent of christ  ---that is really a bridge too far if you know anything about what these guys thought about and believed---has little to do with christianity per se.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 18:31 |
lucas wrote:
Tubes wrote:
@lucas It was no trouble to write. I'm glad you appreciate my 'audacity'. I should also like to encourage you to give, to paraphrase the old expression, a 'discouraging word' or at least a hundred about some GG albums. I understand why some folks who don't find the band particularly listenable avoid reviewing their releases, ie. they try to be positive people, and avert themselves from spreading negativity. But these guys need to receive a more diverse spectrum of commentary than they do. |
OK I will write my one-star review. And will try this exercise with other bands like Opeth or Porcupine Tree. |
As a collaborator you get 20x weighting, so unlike the case of Tubes here it actually is pretty irresponsible of you to purposely manipulate ratings. "Only for completionists" is a pretty specific criterion.
Dean wrote:
¹ Because giving 1-star
ratings to things we don't like rather than to things that are actually
bad seema to be the way we do things around here. Never fully understood
that rationale myself, but there you go, what do I know?
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Edited by Triceratopsoil - April 03 2013 at 07:44
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 17:18 |
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^ What's so wise about the quote?
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
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Posted: April 02 2013 at 16:57 |
 In the words of a very wise man, 'No, I didn't miss anything. There can be no other rating for this than the lowest. I would give it
zero if I could.' Incidentally, just saw that someone reviewed Stormcock, saying 'I did not pay attention to the lyrics, but I think that these
are not decisive for the quality of an album to be classified in the "prog" genre.'... incredible... actually...
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Free Hand - a 1* album
