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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2013 at 04:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

Originally posted by Stool Man Stool Man wrote:

Ah that old chestnut.  This was before that, and that was before this.  Such discussions usually end up with Bach or Opera
 
Pink Floyd were playing Astronomy Domine in 1966.  Here's a setlist from that year:
1. Pink Theme
2. Let's Roll Another One
3. Gimme a Break
4. Piggy Back
5. Stoned Alone
6. I Can Tell
7. The Gnome
8. Interstellar Overdrive
9. Lucy Leave
10. Take Up Thy Stethoscope and Walk
11. Flapdoodle Dealing
12. Snowing
13. Matilda Mother
14. Pow R. Toc H.
15. Astronomy Domine


I'm curious what your source is on this.


That setlist is similar to the IT benefit gig at All Saints Church Hall setlist from 30th September 1966, predating the release of Get Me To The World On Time by a couple of months. A recording was made of that gig but I know of no copies of it, though there are early live undated recordings of Astronomie Domine around that have the bass-guitar intro rather than the later organ intro. Seeing that Floyd used it to close the gigs would suggest it was pretty well developed as a song by then. There is no denying the intro to Are You Loving Me More is similar, but it is far from a "wholesale lift" and aside from that there is little comparison between the two.


One thing that's important is in seeing how songs change shape over time.  If you listen to, for instance,
the rarities tracks that come with nany newer CDs, you can see sketches of songs that in the beginning
how little resemblence to the later form.  The T Rex CD's are a great example of this. 
I'm a big early Pink Floyd fan so there's no axe to grind but also the Electric Prunes 
seems to have been left out of Prog History.  See another post by me on the European acceptance of  Non-European prog here.

Are there recordings from these 1966 gigs?  I just think the hype machine of the biggest
bands let alone their fans is something to be reckoned with.  These could have been versions that sounded
like something different than the Floyd of later 1967.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2013 at 04:34

Pow R. Toc H. is a curious title. Toc H was the abbreviation for Talbot House in WWI spelling alphabet used by the Royal Signals but Pow is not from that phonetic alphabet. However, the logo for Talbot House was a stylised Aladdin's Lamp:

A lamp noted for being not very bright, such that army radio operator slang for a not very bright person was "As dim as a Toc H lamp" which suggests (to me at least) that the Pow R (power) is derived from that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2013 at 04:46
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:


One thing that's important is in seeing how songs change shape over time.  If you listen to, for instance,
the rarities tracks that come with nany newer CDs, you can see sketches of songs that in the beginning
how little resemblence to the later form.  The T Rex CD's are a great example of this. 
I'm a big early Pink Floyd fan so there's no axe to grind but also the Electric Prunes 
seems to have been left out of Prog History.  See another post by me on the European acceptance of  Non-European prog here.
Are there recordings from these 1966 gigs?  I just think the hype machine of the biggest
bands let alone their fans is something to be reckoned with.  These could have been versions that sounded
like something different than the Floyd of later 1967.
Oh most certainly, later Floyd were well known for developing songs over long periods live before committing them to tape, and with tracks like Set The Controls and Astronomie Domine, for continuing to develop them live after recording. early live versions I have heard of Astronomie Domine are undated but do sound very much like the album (and generally clock in at 4 minutes rather than the 8 minutes of Ummagumma). Those early recordings compare more to Interstella Overdrive and Nick's Boogie than they do to anything the Prunes released.
 
However, there is nothing in the structure and format of the Electric Prunes song to suggest that any radical changes were made to Astronomie as a result of Barrett hearing Electric Prunes. One thing Mason noted about their first tour of the USA was how different they were to the US Psychedelic bands they toured with.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2013 at 09:56
Yeah, things were quite different back then, and it wasn't particularly easy to hear new American music in England (Dean can probably tell me if I'm correct or not......this is what I gathered from a couple Floyd books I've read).  Much of the psychedelic scene in Britain was developed out of what they THOUGHT the Americans were doing.  It turned out to be quite different when they actually saw it up close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2013 at 16:36
OK, these are second parties talking about what they themselves heard.  Someone was saying
how impressed Syd was with the Electric Prunes song.  You can hear it in Floyd's record months later
after the Prunes LP was released. If you've followed the words of rock stars, you know, that 
it doesn't matter what they say, it's often one sided.  The Electric Prunes were touring with Soft
Machine, back in the day.  You can hear the live 1967 CD on Youtube currently to hear how they sounded
live.   No one can really take away anything from Floyd that is due them, but sometimes these bands,
and solo artists like Eno, try to have an image that they are these unassailable gods that didn't take
without giving credit.   For some reason, certain bands are not liked, and I think precisely it is because
they were the most original and earliest adapters.  Lesser beings always need to take credit and
cover their tracks, making sure no one really cares about the originals.  You can hear how noisy
and punky the Nice were in their last 1970 recording.   Let's get those nails and crosses, shall we? 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2013 at 20:29
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Yeah, things were quite different back then, and it wasn't particularly easy to hear new American music in England (Dean can probably tell me if I'm correct or not......this is what I gathered from a couple Floyd books I've read).  Much of the psychedelic scene in Britain was developed out of what they THOUGHT the Americans were doing.  It turned out to be quite different when they actually saw it up close.
It was easy enough to hear American Psychedelic Pop and Rock in the UK in the late 60s. The Prunes single scraped into the UK charts and would have been well-known to the UFO crowd in London at that time, as were most of the more well known bands like The Lemon Pipers, Strawberry Alarm Clock, Iron Butterfly, Spirit and Love. I cannot comment on how much the UK underground bands knew of USA underground bands, my guess is not very much, I suspect Mason's comments were of bands, such as Sopwith Camel, Quicksilver Messenger Service and Country Joe & the Fish, whose psychedelic influence was heading off in a completely different musical direction to what was happening in the UK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2013 at 20:52
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

OK, these are second parties talking about what they themselves heard.  
Julian Palacios is not a second party, he is a third or forth party.
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

Someone was saying how impressed Syd was with the Electric Prunes song.  You can hear it in Floyd's record months later
after the Prunes LP was released. If you've followed the words of rock stars, you know, that 
it doesn't matter what they say, it's often one sided.  The Electric Prunes were touring with Soft
Machine, back in the day.  You can hear the live 1967 CD on Youtube currently to hear how they sounded
live.   No one can really take away anything from Floyd that is due them, but sometimes these bands,
and solo artists like Eno, try to have an image that they are these unassailable gods that didn't take
without giving credit.   For some reason, certain bands are not liked, and I think precisely it is because
they were the most original and earliest adapters.  Lesser beings always need to take credit and
cover their tracks, making sure no one really cares about the originals.  You can hear how noisy
and punky the Nice were in their last 1970 recording.   Let's get those nails and crosses, shall we
 
However, these kinds of comments leave me unmoved and unimpressed. If you can seriously hear the beginnings oof Progressive Rock in the early Prunes albums then so be it. What I am saying is Astronomie Domine structurally and musically is a million miles away from Are You Lovin' Me More (But Enjoying It Less) and the intro was not a "wholesale lift" - it bears a resemblence, and if the anecdote is true then it explains why there is a resemblence... For that, it does not qualify as being influential on (or even having any part in) the formation of Progressive Rock as a genre. Of course Barrett didn't invent everything they did without being influenced by other people - the name of the band alone is enough to show that - but everything that influenced his song writting isn't necessarily part of the beginnings of Prog Rock, and that is what we are interested in here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2013 at 22:42
I would agree that Floyd didn't take much from the EP's song.  The history of prog and the
Electric Prunes does change though with their 2 concept albums in 1968, Mass in F Minor, and 
Release of an Oath.  I'm just tracking this stuff as it's being told to me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2013 at 03:47
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I would agree that Floyd didn't take much from the EP's song.  The history of prog and the
Electric Prunes does change though with their 2 concept albums in 1968, Mass in F Minor, and 
Release of an Oath.  I'm just tracking this stuff as it's being told to me. 
Mass in F Minor  and  Release Of An Oath are Prunes in name only, Axelrod composed the music and employed sessions musicians to record them, and they're Psychedelic Rock, not Psychedelic Progressive Rock (and that distinction is more than just semantics as far as inclusion into this site is concerned).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2013 at 04:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I would agree that Floyd didn't take much from the EP's song.  The history of prog and the
Electric Prunes does change though with their 2 concept albums in 1968, Mass in F Minor, and 
Release of an Oath.  I'm just tracking this stuff as it's being told to me. 
Mass in F Minor  and  Release Of An Oath are Prunes in name only, Axelrod composed the music and employed sessions musicians to record them, and they're Psychedelic Rock, not Psychedelic Progressive Rock (and that distinction is more than just semantics as far as inclusion into this site is concerned).
Correct| Clap Thank you for mentioning a genius like Axelrod
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 21:36
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

Originally posted by Stool Man Stool Man wrote:

Ah that old chestnut.  This was before that, and that was before this.  Such discussions usually end up with Bach or Opera
 

Pink Floyd were playing Astronomy Domine in 1966.  Here's a setlist from that year:

1. Pink Theme 2. Let's Roll Another One 3. Gimme a Break 4. Piggy Back 5. Stoned Alone 6. I Can Tell 7. The Gnome 8. Interstellar Overdrive 9. Lucy Leave 10. Take Up Thy Stethoscope and Walk 11. Flapdoodle Dealing 12. Snowing 13. Matilda Mother 14. Pow R. Toc H. 15. Astronomy Domine



I'm curious what your source is on this.



That setlist is similar to the IT benefit gig at <span =linevenue="">All Saints Church Hall setlist from 30th September 1966, predating the release of Get Me To The World On Time by a couple of months. A recording was made of that gig but I know of no copies of it, though there are early live undated recordings of Astronomie Domine around that have the bass-guitar intro rather than the later organ intro. Seeing that Floyd used it to close the gigs would suggest it was pretty well developed as a song by then. There is no denying the intro to Are You Loving Me More is similar, but it is far from a "wholesale lift" and aside from that there is little comparison between the two.</span>

One thing that's important is in seeing how songs change shape over time.  If you listen to, for instance,
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">the rarities tracks that come with nany newer CDs, you can see sketches of songs that in the beginning</span>
how little resemblence to the later form.  The T Rex CD's are a great example of this. 
I'm a big early Pink Floyd fan so there's no axe to grind but <span style="line-height: 1.2;">also the Electric Prunes </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">seems to have been left out of Prog History.  See another post by me on the </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">European </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">acceptance of  </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">Non-European prog here.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
Are there recordings from these 1966 gigs?  I just think the hype machine of the biggest
bands let alone their fans is something to be reckoned with.  These could have been versions that sounded
like something different than the Floyd of later 1967.


I would really love if one of this '66 concerts were to be found and released.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 23:39
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I would agree that Floyd didn't take much from the EP's song.  The history of prog and the
Electric Prunes does change though with their 2 concept albums in 1968, Mass in F Minor, and 
Release of an Oath.  I'm just tracking this stuff as it's being told to me. 
Mass in F Minor  and  Release Of An Oath are Prunes in name only, Axelrod composed the music and employed sessions musicians to record them, and they're Psychedelic Rock, not Psychedelic Progressive Rock (and that distinction is more than just semantics as far as inclusion into this site is concerned).


This is completely wrong.  Most of the Prunes played on Mass in F Minor.  If you can't see that is
James Lowe singing, I wonder why you would even post information like this?  He sang the thing
in Latin because he had Latin in school.....not an easy feat.  Mark Tulin the bassist for the Prunes
was even a studio musician later and later played with Billy Corgan.   James Lowe became a
very important studio engineeer working with Todd Rundgren, and he also produced the early
Sparks albums.  


Edited by brainstormer - April 01 2013 at 10:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2013 at 14:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2013 at 15:18
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Sounds like the kind of fellow that would get along just fine with us here at PA.
He has my same age, but I never play Marvin Gaye Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2013 at 16:47
Poor fella. His ass needs to be relocated to Mojave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zumacraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2013 at 21:15
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Sounds like the kind of fellow that would get along just fine with us here at PA.

At lest Floyd is mellow.  It could've been worse.  The dude could've been blasting black metal or something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 08:58
I always liked Floyd but never was a big fan......and I think Barret is not the genius many feel he was. He may have developed into a great song writer and player if he hadn't had his breakdown but who knows..? There are some nice tracks on all the early ones up to and including Umma Gumma but also a lot of mediocre material.
I liked Meddle, DSOTM, and Wish You Were here the best but then I listened to those in college when we were all..ahem,, in an altered state.....even Animals and The Wall had some very mediocre stuff on them.
Certainly a unique and even ground breaking band but they also did some uninspired writing...imho.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zumacraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 22:16
Dr. Wu,

Yes, the Wall is kind of over-rated.  Not Animals though.  That's as good as it gets, imho.  Final Cut is excellent too.  I start with Meddle too.  There's some interesting stuff before that, but they really hit their stride with Meddle.  Atom Heart Mother could've been their first classic, but the orchestrations and choirs absolutely ruin the title track for me.  More has some nice tunes.  To me, the first two albums are unlistenable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 09:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 09:59
Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

Dr. Wu,

Yes, the Wall is kind of over-rated.  Not Animals though.  That's as good as it gets, imho.  Final Cut is excellent too.  I start with Meddle too.  There's some interesting stuff before that, but they really hit their stride with Meddle.  Atom Heart Mother could've been their first classic, but the orchestrations and choirs absolutely ruin the title track for me.  More has some nice tunes.  To me, the first two albums are unlistenable.
 
 
Animals has some nice things on it but the songs tend to drag at times for me......and Final Cut is ..well... simply not a good lp...imho.
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