The Christian Thread

thellama73 wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: When I pressed for an answer on the question of "at what point does their right to tax us become "taking our stuff" and who gets to decide where that point is?" I was basically given the answer that all taxes are unjust, period. I answered your question that I don't see it as less wrong to steal 10% of someone's income than to steal 100%, so I think all taxes are unjust, yes. I would ask you the same question: at what point do you draw the line between fair and excessive taxation? I would like a precise number, please, because policy proposals cannot be generalities such as "a goodly amount." I don't want to hijack the Christian thread, so please answer in either the political discussion one or the libertarianism one.

As its creator, you have my permission to hijack it.  It isn't being used for much else.

But I appreciate your consideration.


Edited by Epignosis - January 25 2013 at 21:39

Jesus and Paul are both saying the same thing: "When in Rome do as the Romans do" [that particular idiom is credited to later christians who are essentially paraphrasing "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s"]. When the Romans occupied a country they replaced the local currency with their own - the denarius became the "legal tender" of all the Roman occupied countries. So he is saying you use Roman currency then pay Roman taxes. When John the baptist was asked by a repentant tax collector what he should do he is told "Don’t collect any more than you are required to.". So John is telling the Publican to continue collecting Roman taxes and Jesus is telling the people to continue paying them.

Edited by Dean - January 26 2013 at 05:00

Jonathan wrote: How do you guys feel about Baptists? I feel they are too loud most of the time and too judgemental. That's why I'm a Quaker, We aren't loud at all.

I've grown up Baptist.  We attend a Baptist-affiliated church.  We are loud in our music and judgmental regarding paint colors.

Anyway, Baptists are like most any sub group.  I could generalize about Catholics based on several I've met and say they are all rude and insincere, but that would not be true.  Regarding the stereotype of Baptists, I'd say it's largely a generational thing.  Many older Baptists grew up in a time when racism was acceptable, and they most likely had pro-Prohibition parents.  I actually rather pity such folks.


Edited by Epignosis - January 26 2013 at 06:58

Jonathan wrote: I used to be an Independent Baptist but I just now don't see the need for Sacraments so I became a Quaker. I attend a Friends Meeting which does have a Preacher but we sometimes have a couple minutes of Silent Worship. I do respect the beliefs of Baptists but I'm just not into loudness. But I known there are some Baptist Preacher that aren't loud, I was talking about the ones I've met. Not all of them.

I've attended many Baptist churches around the US South, and only one of them had a preacher who hollered.  Many of the Baptist preachers I've known are monotone. 

Jonathan wrote: Epignosis wrote: Jonathan wrote: I used to be an Independent Baptist but I just now don't see the need for Sacraments so I became a Quaker. I attend a Friends Meeting which does have a Preacher but we sometimes have a couple minutes of Silent Worship. I do respect the beliefs of Baptists but I'm just not into loudness. But I known there are some Baptist Preacher that aren't loud, I was talking about the ones I've met. Not all of them. I've attended many Baptist churches around the US South, and only one of them had a preacher who hollered.  Many of the Baptist preachers I've known are monotone.  What's does monotone mean?

A voice that doesn't change pitch much.

Jonathan wrote: How do you guys feel about Baptists? I feel they are too loud most of the time and too judgemental. That's why I'm a Quaker, We aren't loud at all.

I think one of the major problems with the church in general is that we've instituted such divides.  We sit from behind our stained glass windows and point in judgement at the world and at other denominations.  I think it would rather be a much more profound statement of the kind of love Jesus exemplified for us if churches from multiple denominations reached out in friendship towards each other and tried to learn from each other.  I've often played around with the idea of taking time away from our current church to go on a sort of pilgrimage by visiting a different church every week for a while, just so see what I could learn from the experience.  I haven't done it simply because I really love the church I'm in now, and have some responsibility there right now.  But it's an idea I may, one day, try.

dtguitarfan wrote: Jonathan wrote: How do you guys feel about Baptists? I feel they are too loud most of the time and too judgemental. That's why I'm a Quaker, We aren't loud at all. I think one of the major problems with the church in general is that we've instituted such divides.  We sit from behind our stained glass windows and point in judgement at the world and at other denominations.  I think it would rather be a much more profound statement of the kind of love Jesus exemplified for us if churches from multiple denominations reached out in friendship towards each other and tried to learn from each other.  I've often played around with the idea of taking time away from our current church to go on a sort of pilgrimage by visiting a different church every week for a while, just so see what I could learn from the experience.  I haven't done it simply because I really love the church I'm in now, and have some responsibility there right now.  But it's an idea I may, one day, try.

Shoot, I forgot - I really wanted to add to this: the whole idea of fighting about which denomination is better than the other often reminds me of the "I follow Paul"/"I follow Apollos" passage.

dtguitarfan wrote:  I've often played around with the idea of taking time away from our current church to go on a sort of pilgrimage by visiting a different church every week for a while, just so see what I could learn from the experience.  I haven't done it simply because I really love the church I'm in now, and have some responsibility there right now.  But it's an idea I may, one day, try.

I did this - it was enjolyable and enlightning (I am not a christian now, but I was for many years) - all the churches and congregations I visited were welcoming and inviting, none of them tried to convert me to their particular church, of course I could not take communion in a catholic church, but I was not shunned because I couldn't, I could still pray and sing and listen to the sermon. Meeting different people and seeing how they worshipped showed me the commonality and the differences between them, and on balance the commonality out-weighed the differences in most cases.

Jonathan wrote: Who is Apollos?

I Cor. 3:3-9
You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?  What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Dean wrote: dtguitarfan wrote:  I've often played around with the idea of taking time away from our current church to go on a sort of pilgrimage by visiting a different church every week for a while, just so see what I could learn from the experience.  I haven't done it simply because I really love the church I'm in now, and have some responsibility there right now.  But it's an idea I may, one day, try. I did this - it was enjolyable and enlightning (I am not a christian now, but I was for many years) - all the churches and congregations I visited were welcoming and inviting, none of them tried to convert me to their particular church, of course I could not take communion in a catholic church, but I was not shunned because I couldn't, I could still pray and sing and listen to the sermon. Meeting different people and seeing how they worshipped showed me the commonality and the differences between them, and on balance the commonality out-weighed the differences in most cases.

That's what I'm getting at, too.  I recently had a conversation with a Buddhist about his beliefs, and rather than telling him what I thought was wrong about his beliefs, I tried to take a humble approach and see if I could learn something from him about my own beliefs.  When I did this, I found some really interesting ideas that weren't out of tune with my own.  For example, their word for faith implies a denying of one's own ego - in this idea you cannot achieve faith if you are trusting in your own ego.  I thought this was very interesting, since the Christian faith has a very similar idea when you examine the teachings on humility.  I found this to be a very enriching experience to have this conversation with my friend, rather than feeling like it threatened my own faith.

Another example - a while back I remember visiting a church a good friend of mine was attending at the time.  It was a black baptist church, and we were the only white people there.  I'll never forget how we were basically mobbed by friendly, welcoming people.  I have never felt so welcomed in a new place, and I felt like "man, they put most white Christians I know to shame!"