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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:24 |
 lazland wrote:
Dean wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
^But neo doesn't describe it's bands well. |
That's going back to the adjective use of the word used in a subgenre name and its noun use - Neo Prog is just a name, it does not need to be decriptive. Symphonic Prog is just a name, I've yet to hear a Prog symphony. |
But, Dean, surely the whole point of these labels here is that they are descriptive, or supposed to be. You look for an act under neo, and you follow that description to find what you might like. If they are not, after all, descriptive, then there is absolutely no point to them whatsoever. |
The name is not indicative of the bands included - no one reads the subgenre descriptions, especially of subgenres that exist outside the rarified atmosphere of the Prog Archives (ie look up Neo Prog on wikipedia, rym, allmusic and [this is a kicker] The Urban Dictionary). Our description of the Neo Prog subgenre was significantly altered by Olav from Drew's earlier re-write of the original definition to make it a broader category - I actually think it is one step too far spreading the subgenre into areas that were originally the sole domain of Crossover (Art Rock).
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:17 |
lazland wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
lazland wrote:
I know mate, and it is appreciated.
And, referring to Dean's post, I fail to see how getting rid of the sub-genres would turn us into rateyour music.com. It would still be Prog Archives, because we would only allow prog music and prog related here.
Also, if I were searching for something, I would not search for Genesis under symphonic prog. I would search for Genesis. I also don't buy this argument that the sub-genres help people buy or listen to similar music. If, say, we take Genesis as an example again, and you look at the top symphonic albums, you would come across The Flower Kings. Similar? A million miles apart, aside from being in the same sub-genre here. It does not follow that if yo like Genesis, you will like TFK. Also, the label itself is ridiculous. You and I are fans of latter day Genesis, but symphonic? Might as well call the dog the cat.
Neo, the subject of this thread, is the most ridiculous label, alongside crossover. Both are, these days, merely receptacles for stuff other teams don't want in many cases. Not all, but certainly many. All neo prog ever was is the name given to a bunch of bands who took up prog in the eighties, virtually all of whom make music now which bears little or no relation to that stuff. There is no such thing as a definitive version of neo prog. Such a thing never, ever, existed, not then, and certainly not now. |
Sorry Steve but I can't agree, regardless of their limitations (which everybody should be well aware of), sub-genres as they are are useful. |
And I don't regard something with limitations as being particularly useful. Those limitations, IMHO, make them extremely non-useful.. |
Where is it non-useful? If you think that removing subgenres does not result in rateyourmusic then you have imposed a limitation on which bands can and cannot be included. We have the same limitation with or without subgenres.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13634
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:14 |
Dean wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
^But neo doesn't describe it's bands well. |
That's going back to the adjective use of the word used in a subgenre name and its noun use - Neo Prog is just a name, it does not need to be decriptive. Symphonic Prog is just a name, I've yet to hear a Prog symphony. |
But, Dean, surely the whole point of these labels here is that they are descriptive, or supposed to be. You look for an act under neo, and you follow that description to find what you might like. If they are not, after all, descriptive, then there is absolutely no point to them whatsoever.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13634
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:12 |
Gerinski wrote:
lazland wrote:
I know mate, and it is appreciated.
And, referring to Dean's post, I fail to see how getting rid of the sub-genres would turn us into rateyour music.com. It would still be Prog Archives, because we would only allow prog music and prog related here.
Also, if I were searching for something, I would not search for Genesis under symphonic prog. I would search for Genesis. I also don't buy this argument that the sub-genres help people buy or listen to similar music. If, say, we take Genesis as an example again, and you look at the top symphonic albums, you would come across The Flower Kings. Similar? A million miles apart, aside from being in the same sub-genre here. It does not follow that if yo like Genesis, you will like TFK. Also, the label itself is ridiculous. You and I are fans of latter day Genesis, but symphonic? Might as well call the dog the cat.
Neo, the subject of this thread, is the most ridiculous label, alongside crossover. Both are, these days, merely receptacles for stuff other teams don't want in many cases. Not all, but certainly many. All neo prog ever was is the name given to a bunch of bands who took up prog in the eighties, virtually all of whom make music now which bears little or no relation to that stuff. There is no such thing as a definitive version of neo prog. Such a thing never, ever, existed, not then, and certainly not now. |
Sorry Steve but I can't agree, regardless of their limitations (which everybody should be well aware of), sub-genres as they are are useful. |
And I don't regard something with limitations as being particularly useful. Those limitations, IMHO, make them extremely non-useful..
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:09 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I don't really agree with New Wave of Prog. I honestly think that the bands in neo should be moved into crossover, symph, or heavy depending on the band. |
Probably right for more modrn bands. But those erli eighties bands could certainly be in a genre called Newe wave. |
Yeah, it would be consistent with NWOBHM as well the bigger New Wave scene of the 80s, which did influence neo prog at the time. I
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:07 |
Snow Dog wrote:
^But neo doesn't describe it's bands well. |
That's going back to the adjective use of the word used in a subgenre name and its noun use - Neo Prog is just a name, it does not need to be decriptive. Symphonic Prog is just a name, I've yet to hear a Prog symphony.
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What?
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:07 |
lazland wrote:
I know mate, and it is appreciated.
And, referring to Dean's post, I fail to see how getting rid of the sub-genres would turn us into rateyour music.com. It would still be Prog Archives, because we would only allow prog music and prog related here.
Also, if I were searching for something, I would not search for Genesis under symphonic prog. I would search for Genesis. I also don't buy this argument that the sub-genres help people buy or listen to similar music. If, say, we take Genesis as an example again, and you look at the top symphonic albums, you would come across The Flower Kings. Similar? A million miles apart, aside from being in the same sub-genre here. It does not follow that if yo like Genesis, you will like TFK. Also, the label itself is ridiculous. You and I are fans of latter day Genesis, but symphonic? Might as well call the dog the cat.
Neo, the subject of this thread, is the most ridiculous label, alongside crossover. Both are, these days, merely receptacles for stuff other teams don't want in many cases. Not all, but certainly many. All neo prog ever was is the name given to a bunch of bands who took up prog in the eighties, virtually all of whom make music now which bears little or no relation to that stuff. There is no such thing as a definitive version of neo prog. Such a thing never, ever, existed, not then, and certainly not now. |
Sorry Steve but I can't agree, regardless of their limitations (which everybody should be well aware of), sub-genres as they are are useful.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:06 |
Horizons wrote:
I don't really agree with New Wave of Prog. I honestly think that the bands in neo should be moved into crossover, symph, or heavy depending on the band. |
Probably right for more modrn bands. But those erli eighties bands could certainly be in a genre called Newe wave.
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:05 |
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I don't really agree with New Wave of Prog. I honestly think that the bands in neo should be moved into crossover, symph, or heavy depending on the band.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:04 |
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^But neo doesn't describe it's bands well.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14122
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:02 |
lazland wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
lazland wrote:
Roxbrough wrote:
What about stop all labels and just listen to music? |
See the debate on Improve The Site (Revolutionise the Site). That is precisely what I am arguing, but, aside from a couple of hardy souls, I am very much alone. |
Well as you know I am very much behind you. And I would get rid of the Neo tag also. |
I know mate, and it is appreciated.
And, referring to Dean's post, I fail to see how getting rid of the sub-genres would turn us into rateyour music.com. It would still be Prog Archives, because we would only allow prog music and prog related here.
Also, if I were searching for something, I would not search for Genesis under symphonic prog. I would search for Genesis. I also don't buy this argument that the sub-genres help people buy or listen to similar music. If, say, we take Genesis as an example again, and you look at the top symphonic albums, you would come across The Flower Kings. Similar? A million miles apart, aside from being in the same sub-genre here. It does not follow that if yo like Genesis, you will like TFK. Also, the label itself is ridiculous. You and I are fans of latter day Genesis, but symphonic? Might as well call the dog the cat.
Neo, the subject of this thread, is the most ridiculous label, alongside crossover. Both are, these days, merely receptacles for stuff other teams don't want in many cases. Not all, but certainly many. All neo prog ever was is the name given to a bunch of bands who took up prog in the eighties, virtually all of whom make music now which bears little or no relation to that stuff. There is no such thing as a definitive version of neo prog. Such a thing never, ever, existed, not then, and certainly not now. |
Prog is a label as well. It describes something different from pop or new-age or world music. If you get rid of subgenres you still have genres. What's the right level of classification?
In Nature, should you stop at Family, Genre or Specie? Labels are conventions. If you dislike Neo it can probably be replaced by something else. The fact is that it describes something. Think to Cantor, a genre is a closed set. If neo is closed, changing its name doesn't change its nature.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:01 |
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^Agreed. Someone posted earlier that the only Neo prog album they liked was Script. Well that album is far from Neo as described here. So thge label is unhelpful. Not sure what point I'm trying to make. Oh yes.....New Wave Of Prog would apply better to it. Can't say I like that clumsy description either though. But is more explanatory at least.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13634
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 10:54 |
Snow Dog wrote:
lazland wrote:
Roxbrough wrote:
What about stop all labels and just listen to music? |
See the debate on Improve The Site (Revolutionise the Site). That is precisely what I am arguing, but, aside from a couple of hardy souls, I am very much alone. |
Well as you know I am very much behind you. And I would get rid of the Neo tag also. |
I know mate, and it is appreciated.
And, referring to Dean's post, I fail to see how getting rid of the sub-genres would turn us into rateyour music.com. It would still be Prog Archives, because we would only allow prog music and prog related here.
Also, if I were searching for something, I would not search for Genesis under symphonic prog. I would search for Genesis. I also don't buy this argument that the sub-genres help people buy or listen to similar music. If, say, we take Genesis as an example again, and you look at the top symphonic albums, you would come across The Flower Kings. Similar? A million miles apart, aside from being in the same sub-genre here. It does not follow that if yo like Genesis, you will like TFK. Also, the label itself is ridiculous. You and I are fans of latter day Genesis, but symphonic? Might as well call the dog the cat.
Neo, the subject of this thread, is the most ridiculous label, alongside crossover. Both are, these days, merely receptacles for stuff other teams don't want in many cases. Not all, but certainly many. All neo prog ever was is the name given to a bunch of bands who took up prog in the eighties, virtually all of whom make music now which bears little or no relation to that stuff. There is no such thing as a definitive version of neo prog. Such a thing never, ever, existed, not then, and certainly not now.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 09:28 |
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^ and just become rateyourmusic.com
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What?
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14122
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 09:14 |
Roxbrough wrote:
What about stop all labels and just listen to music? |
Not a bad idea, but with thousands of artists searching just alphabetically is not good. As reviewer, when I try to describe something "new" I often compare what I hear with something well known. Subgenres can help in this sense even when they are not very appropriated or the artist is controversial. I think Vangelis is on prog related only because he moved from JR/F to Symphonic, to Progressive Electronic, to Krautrock, to Avant, (the B-side of Heaven and Hell may fit in Zeuhl, too) that assigning him to a specific subgenre is impossible.
But if you remove ALL the labels this would become www.archives.com and couldn't be distinguished from metal archives and jazzmusic-archives, too.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 09:02 |
lazland wrote:
Roxbrough wrote:
What about stop all labels and just listen to music? |
See the debate on Improve The Site (Revolutionise the Site). That is precisely what I am arguing, but, aside from a couple of hardy souls, I am very much alone. |
Well as you know I am very much behind you. And I would get rid of the Neo tag also.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13634
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:54 |
Roxbrough wrote:
What about stop all labels and just listen to music? |
See the debate on Improve The Site (Revolutionise the Site). That is precisely what I am arguing, but, aside from a couple of hardy souls, I am very much alone.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Roxbrough
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 02 2012
Location: Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 100
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:51 |
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What about stop all labels and just listen to music?
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Live Long and Prosper
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:46 |
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Arguing semantics.
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--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13634
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Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:46 |
brainstormer wrote:
I just mean you can analyze it and compare the two without emotion, justusing the intellect. It's not really based on opinion, as in, this music is better than that music. |
I think we knew what you meant, and we were, I hope, only poking fun at you.
However, being serious, I, for one, rather wish people would not endlessly analyse music, without emotion. There is far too much of it on this site (others are also guilty, but I think we are the worse culprits). It's music, for heaven's sake. Music, there to be enjoyed, to be moved by, to become emotionally charged by and with, not, as some would have it, there to be categorised and pilloried just because the fourth part of the fifth movement of the second track does not contain sufficient types of instruments or ways of playing to fit it into a particular sub-genre, most of which are entirely of our own pedantic making anyway.
I despair.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
stop the "Neo" prog label ?
